Are Heaven and Hell

[aball1035]

Are they physical places, or more like a state of mind?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

As far as I can tell, they’re spiritual places with what might be called physical characteristics or sensations - beauty vs. scorching heat; silence and music vs. unmitigated noise; incredible beauty vs. abysmal ugliness and horror.

And those in them would definitely have states of mind - peace, love and joy in heaven; endless anxiety, hatred and despair in hell.

 

[puzzleannie]

Are they physical places, or more like a state of mind?

since we believe, as Jesus taught, in the resurrection of the body, they must be physical places or beings with both soul and body, which humans are, could not inhabit them.

 

[GEddie]

Are they physical places, or more like a state of mind?

Definitely physical, as one cannot have a “mind” without their head, which is part of a body.

But physical in a spiritual way. “There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15)

ICXC NIKA!

 

[ZDHayden]

I have come to the conclusion that Hell and Heaven are Spiritual places, the term place of course implying that there are physical characteristics – or rather that physical characteristics are given to them because we can only understand on the physical pane (which is why we give the masculine gender to God, who has no physical body, because we understand Him as ultimate paternity and can only reconcile paternity with maleness because no woman no matter how liberal or masculine can be a father.) But we were given descriptions of Heaven and Hell in a very cloudy method – we do not know for certain, but just know that Heaven is in perfect unity with God, and Hell is perfect separation from God. These were given physical attributes so we could relate to them. As for the resurrection of the body, that simply indicates that our bodies will be resurrected. We can obviously see that our bodies don’t disappear or go to a different plane of existence, but mostly begin to decay upon death. This means that the afterlife is NOT physical. The only way heaven and hell could be states of mind is if the brain continued to function after death, which it doesn’t. In fact the brain stopping its function is one of the requirements of death, and our bodies must be dead before they can be resurrected.
Hope this made sense and helped.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

since we believe, as Jesus taught, in the resurrection of the body, they must be physical places or beings with both soul and body, which humans are, could not inhabit them.

Why does it follow from the ressurection of the body that hell must be a physical place?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Definitely physical, as one cannot have a “mind” without their head, which is part of a body.

But physical in a spiritual way. “There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15)

ICXC NIKA!

I don’t see how it follows that hell is a physical place on the basis that we have a physical body. Can you please explain the logic of your arguement?

 

[GEddie]

I have come to the conclusion that Hell and Heaven are Spiritual places… the afterlife is NOT physical.

One could say that the “afterlife” ( I personally loathe the term, it relegates the Life Everlasting to the same category as an “aftertaste” or an “aftereffect”) is transphysical; that is, while we will experience it in a physical sort of way, since we must (being not spirits but thinking bodies) we will not experience it with our physical self, which death will have taken from us. Again, “there is a spiritual body.” Physicality is not an accident but essential to our being, and like our LORD, subjected to death in the flesh, we will be made alive in the Spirit.

ICXC NIKA!

 

[GEddie]

Why does it follow from the ressurection of the body that hell must be a physical place?

Simple. The resurrectional body, or spiritual body, is for every"body" whether they awaken in Heaven or in Hell. And BODIES have to have some sort of space to “be” in. It may be that spirits can dance on the head of a pin; bodies are by nature extensional. Our limbs, elbows, shoulders, nose, feet, etc. sticking out every which way is not accidental but central to our being, and this is not altered if someone goes to Hell. They still receive a spiritual body. They will still need somewhere to “be.”

ICXC NIKA.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t see how it follows that hell is a physical place on the basis that we have a physical body. Can you please explain the logic of your arguement?

We have a physical body. And, as was remarked, even “states of mind” require that our head, which is part of our body, be functional. No head, no mind; therefore no body, no “states of mind,” either. So Hell as only a “state of mind” is impossible.

Since we clearly lose our “natural body” to death, any form of experience would become impossible. Heaven or Hell for the human being, require the operation of a resurrectional, or spiritual body. And since Bodies are by nature extensional, it follows that both Heaven and Hell are “places,” ie, spaces wherein extensional bodies can “be.”

However, they can be understood as “transphysical,” spaces where bodies can be, but not part of the physical world we understand.

ICXC NIKA!

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Simple. The resurrectional body, or spiritual body, is for every"body" whether they awaken in Heaven or in Hell. And BODIES have to have some sort of space to “be” in. It may be that spirits can dance on the head of a pin; bodies are by nature extensional. Our limbs, elbows, shoulders, nose, feet, etc. sticking out every which way is not accidental but central to our being, and this is not altered if someone goes to Hell. They still receive a spiritual body. They will still need somewhere to “be.”

ICXC NIKA.

Being in a place, does not mean that hell is caused by that place. We experience hell because we oppose heaven; we oppose God. God is not reactionary. Gods act is eternal, and we experience certain states in respect of our relationship to that eternal act. Hell doesn’t exist in virtue of being sent to a place or because we went to a place. Hell is a state of being which begins in the soul since that is the substance by which we experience God.

Heaven is an expression of Gods nature; and to freely experience heaven is to participate is the moral goodness of God. True, we might experience heaven in a “place”; but heaven is not that place, since God himself is the root of all true hapiness.

 

[sumusresnovarum]

The very distinction of “Physical body” versus “spiritual body” should raise the argument that heaven and hell as “physical” places could be also interpreted as a glorified “spiritual” place, as in the resurrection of the body. The gospels tell us that although Jesus ate food and walked around after the resurrection, he was able to walk through walls when the apostles locked themselves in the upper room. There is no indication that heaven or hell could be a place in physical space, especially in the temporal human sense by which we view locations. Heaven and Hell, as well as God, exist outside of time, and therefore outside of space. They are, in one matter of speaking, a state of being, either with God or against Him. By this terminology, one doesn’t need a head to be, as rocks can exist without a brain to realize it. This opposes heaven and hell as states of mind. However, as far as the physicality of heaven and hell, we can only surmise what a spiritual body, a post-resurrection body might look like and what properties it might have. So while I hate to take a cop-out, we simply don’t know how much physical space heaven and hell might need. What is most important is that we will have bodies after death, those bodies and their eternal destinations will be eternal and outside of human time, and that human thought about heaven and hell can only ever be allegorical, theoretical, or metaphorical, never complete.

 

[GEddie]

The very distinction of “Physical body” versus “spiritual body” should raise the argument that heaven and hell as “physical” places could be also interpreted as a glorified “spiritual” place, as in the resurrection of the body. The gospels tell us that although Jesus ate food and walked around after the resurrection, he was able to walk through walls when the apostles locked themselves in the upper room. There is no indication that heaven or hell could be a place in physical space,

Correct. If they were, getting into Heaven or escaping from Hell would simply be a matter of transportation; there would be no necessary change of being, in one case necessary, in the second impossible. But there is nothing to suggest that one can achieve Heaven or escape Hell simply by travelling far enough. You need a new being; you need a new BODY.

But Heaven and Hell being outside the “physical world” we understand, in no way negates the extensionality of the realms where they are lived (higher dimension?); nor the essential bodyness of those human beings who enter them.

especially in the temporal human sense by which we view locations.

Temporality is not just human, it is intrinsic to the physical locations we know. If you observe another star, or galaxy, you necessarily see the past, because the speed of light is finite. That isn’t a human limitation, but a fundamental one. Eternity and its citizens would be exempt from it.

Heaven and Hell, as well as God, exist outside of time, and therefore outside of space. They are, in one matter of speaking, a state of being, either with God or against Him. By this terminology, one doesn’t need a head to be, as rocks can exist without a brain to realize it. This opposes heaven and hell as states of mind.

No, they are not states of mind, however, they are states wherein one possesses a mind. “Being with God” or the converse implies consciousness. So you still need your head. There may be rocks in Heaven; but they do not “experience” Heaven.

However, as far as the physicality of heaven and hell, we can only surmise what a spiritual body, a post-resurrection body might look like and what properties it might have.

We have our LORD Himself as the “floor model” of the pneumatikon soma, spiritual body. He remained a Human Body: head, hands, feet, etc. So will we. Yet HE had given up earthly breath for heavenly breath, and human flimsiness for Heavenly power: so will we.

So while I hate to take a cop-out, we simply don’t know how much physical space heaven and hell might need.

Probably none at all. With the change to a new method of being, the human pneumatikon soma, will be able to move and “be” without the need for the space that we understand; having all eternity to wiggle around in. Recall that in Einstein’s theory, space and time are connected. It stands to reason that Eternity will have spaces and bodies all its own, including our own pneumatikon soma. Praise be to our LORD!

What is most important is that we will have bodies after death, those bodies and their eternal destinations will be eternal and outside of human time, and that human thought about heaven and hell can only ever be allegorical, theoretical, or metaphorical, never complete.

ICXC NIKA!

 

[GEddie]

By this terminology, one doesn’t need a head to be, as rocks can exist without a brain to realize it.

Without your head/body, therefore without your mind, what would be left of you for “being”?

You are a human being, a living being. Your being requires life, therefore a body; to experience being (a rock, having no mind, has being, but cannot experience it) you require your mind and its external appurtenances.

You will not experience Heaven until you awaken there fully reassembled. ICXC NIKA!!!

 

[sumusresnovarum]

But Heaven and Hell being outside the “physical world” we understand, in no way negates the extensionality of the realms where they are lived (higher dimension?); nor the essential bodyness of those human beings who enter them.

It doesn’t negate their extensionality, but it raises the point that perhaps we don’t need a place to be at, we simply can be. Space and Time are connected, so outside of time, any physical place would be eternal, as would any inhabitant of that place. One theory, with which I tend to agree, is that heaven allows one to live or experience anytime or any place ever on earth, since heaven and hell and everyone who ever lived can view the whole world at one instance. However, having a place to do this from might not be necessary, as God created spiritual bodies which could walk through walls and eat breakfast at the souls desire, or could be eternally large.

Temporality is not just human, it is intrinsic to the physical locations we know. If you observe another star, or galaxy, you necessarily see the past, because the speed of light is finite. That isn’t a human limitation, but a fundamental one. Eternity and its citizens would be exempt from it.

I think that time is in some ways a human limitation, even if past, present, and future are fundamentally ordered and outside our control. The whole reason arguments like this about heaven and hell exist is because we want to make heaven seem like the greatest, longest lasting temporal place we can think of, where every dead person can live comfortably. The same is true of hell, hence why Dante had a job as do many fiction writers today. Eternity and its citizens being free of time almost necessarily points to the fact that heaven and hell don’t really have a space, and the resurrected bodies don’t “float” or “fly” through space, but that they “are” and the way they experience both God and the world, or themselves in hell, is beyond any human verb to tell.

 

[GEddie]

It doesn’t negate their extensionality, but it raises the point that perhaps we don’t need a place to be at, we simply can be.

I doubt it, as space is one of the basic attributes of bodyhood. Your nose, feet, shoulders, etc, need to stick out into “something.” Light needs a space to go through to your eyes, as do smells to your nose. Since we will have limbs, we need a space in which to wiggle them. The pneumatikon soma will not reduce to a point, anymore than our natural human soma would.

Space and Time are connected, so outside of time, any physical place would be eternal,

But since they are connected, could any physical places known to us be eternal? Is it not more probable that Eternity has its own spaces and extensions?

as would any inhabitant of that place. One theory, with which I tend to agree, is that heaven allows one to live or experience anytime or any place ever on earth, since heaven and hell and everyone who ever lived can view the whole world at one instance. However, having a place to do this from might not be necessary, as God created spiritual bodies which could walk through walls and eat breakfast at the souls desire, or could be eternally large.

Indeed, but to “be nowhere” is inconsistent with bodyhood.

I think that time is in some ways a human limitation, even if past, present, and future are fundamentally ordered and outside our control. The whole reason arguments like this about heaven and hell exist is because we want to make heaven seem like the greatest, longest lasting temporal place we can think of, where every dead person can live comfortably.

Not really. Most folks haven’t given time that much thought to wonder about its absence and how that would affect us. I believe that these debates exist because we want to hope for some real human life to exist beyond our eyes rolling back, (as opposed to “clouds of spirit” wishing in vain for bodies); and the clock speed of that life is a secondary concern.

All the dead human beings could live very comfortably within our known universe, except that death has barred them from it. There is no lack of “places to be.”

The same is true of hell, hence why Dante had a job as do many fiction writers today. Eternity and its citizens being free of time almost necessarily points to the fact that heaven and hell don’t really have a space, and the resurrected bodies don’t “float” or “fly” through space,

There is no need for floating or flying, or otherwise crossing space; just bodying around. But extensional space is still needed for that.

but that they “are” and the way they experience both God and the world, or themselves in hell, is beyond any human verb to tell.

ICXC NIKA.