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Jaymax
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It seems to me that people with negative views homosexuality think a LOT more about homosexual sex than gays and lesbians do.
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Jaymax
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NARTH are a tiny “pray away the gay” religious based fringe group. They have never published a study in any mainstream peer-reviewed journal. At one time they published their own journal which only had two volumes - and they frequently quote from it.I’m not baffled by the fact that nobody knows. I’m just baffled by how some people attack homosexuality itself, as I explained in my earlier posts, as being sinful.
But I did read those “scientific” links, and once again none of those case studies seem to apply to me.
NARTH states that homosexuality is frequently a symptom of one or more of the following:
THAT is what baffles me.People seem to have the idea that homosexuality is caused by some kind of disruption or abnormality in childhood, but I had a completely healthy and normal childhood.
I think there has to be at least some kind of biological component.
They also make a habit of misrepresenting other studies by reputable scientists. It’s not that difficult to look up the sources they cite and find the studies for yourself - quite an eye opener when you realise how they misrepresent what other researchers have said.
Mainstream health organizations like the American Academy of Pediatrics state that:
“In recent decades, biologically based theories have been favored by experts. The high concordance of homosexuality among monozygotic twins and the clustering of homosexuality in family pedigrees support biological models.”
“there is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation”
aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;113/6/1827
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Jaymax
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Kaytu, I counselled hundreds of gays and lesbians when I was working for a gay and lesbian counselling service for people who were coming out. Very few of them had been abused as children or have experienced what these “pray away the gay” people claim during their childhood.
More recently as a family counsellor in a disadvantaged area, I come across many clients who have been sexually abused as children, who have never lived with their fathers, who had controlling mothers etc etc etc…and so far, they are all heterosexual.
These ex-gay groups need to come up with reasons why they think that homosexuality is not inborn because they believe it is a sin. They also need to convince their clients that if homosexuality is a developmental disorder then it can be changed.
I read a transcript of a session with a “reparative therapist” where a journalist pretended he wanted to change from gay to straight. I was horrified by the leading questions this “therapist” asked.
This is an example of the sort of thing I mean:
Therapist: “So most homosexuals have a distant relationship with their fathers. Tell be about your relationship with your father. It wasn’t close was it.”
Client- “No, I had a good relationship with my dad”
Therapist: “You mustn’t be able to remember then.”
Client: No I remember quite well
Therapist: Did you play sports with you father?
Client: No, not really.
Therapist: Oh so you didn’t have much in common.
Client: No…it’s because neither of us were all that interested in sports
Therpist: So you didn’t share any interests with him.
Client: Well yes, I did, We both had a strong interest in science. He was a scientist and would often take me with him to work to show me his experiments. We had some great talks.
Therapist: So your relationship was quite cold.
Client: What? What makes you say that.
Client: Well you said you just talked about science, That seems quite cold.
Client: No. I didn’t say that. We talked about lots of things.
Therapist: But he probably didn’t hug you very often did he.
Client: Well yes…he did. Dad was a big hugger.
Therapist: Hmmm…many homosexuals were sexually abused as children. Did your father ever touch you sexually?
Client: What???
This method of using leading questions to try to fit a client to a pet theory is completely unethical, harnful and frankly, disgusts me. This is NOT what counselling or therapy is about.
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PerfectTiming
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The political influence on supposedly unbiased secular sources is astounding. DSM is the classificatory system for psychological disorders and until the 70’s homosexuality was part of it. Part of the classification for psychological disorders deems that they are not normative. Homosexuality is not normative and politics, not science or evidence, was what caused it’s declassification. So to be honest any research done is highly likely to be twisted to fit political agendas, in the modern world this is pro-homosexuality.
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Jaymax
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Facts About Homosexuality and Mental Health
"Confronted with overwhelming empirical evidence and changing cultural views of homosexuality, psychiatrists and psychologists radically altered their views, beginning in the 1970s.
In 1973, the weight of empirical data, coupled with changing social norms and the development of a politically active gay community in the United States, led the Board of Directors of the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)."
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Jaymax
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Perhaps you could take the time to read this article by a Professor of Religious Studies at Yale University.
Tell me what you think
clgs.org/arsenokoit%C3%A9s-and-malakos-meanings-and-consequences
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Jaymax
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Frankly, I find it amazing the lengths some people will go to justify their prejudice against homosexuals…
Some of your answers can be found in the Holy Bible, many others in reputable science journals, and the rest…by talking to gay and lesbian people.
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John_Pascendi
Guest
When I went to college it was called a mommy complex…in other words,the little boy had an absent or abusive daddy and therefor fell in love with his mommy…after all,the first 5 years its all he has,then the boy goes to school and from K to 8th its all female teachers,so its a no wonder when he is a frosh he cant turn on to women etc. No its all in the mind and thats why it is so wrong to conditon the public into thinking its in the genes so its equal with we heteros…No our leaders in thought word and deed,also want to place women on the front lines of combat…ahh the ole domino theory in perfect workling order…destroy the military and thus have a new world order police force take over…enjoy the football games on the boob tube…N
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Jaymax
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sigh. Source please?
Isn’t that what you would ask a student to provide if they make a bold claim like that?
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Jaymax
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There have been a lot of changes in developmental psychology since Freud’s ideas - When was it you went to college?
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PerfectTiming
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Any research has its limitations, especially ones as politically charged as these. Psychology is not immune to social and political pressures.
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edwest2
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Additional information:
catholicdoctors.org.uk/CMQ/Feb_2000/homosexuality.htm
No empirical evidence was submitted for the 1973 vote.
"Numerous psychiatrists over the past decades have described what forces were really at work both inside and outside of the American Psychiatric Association-and what led to the removal of homosexuality as a mental disorder.
"Dr. Ronald Bayer explains how homosexual activists captured the APA for political gain.
Dr. Ronald Bayer, a pro-homosexual psychiatrist has described what actually occurred in his book, Homosexuality and American Psychiatry: The Politics of Diagnosis. (1981)
'In Chapter 4, “Diagnostic Politics: Homosexuality and the American Psychiatric Association,” Dr. Bayer says that the first attack by homosexual activists against the APA began in 1970 when this organization held its convention in San Francisco. Homosexual activists decided to disrupt the conference by interrupting speakers and shouting down and ridiculing psychiatrists who viewed homosexuality as a mental disorder. In 1971, homosexual activist Frank Kameny worked with the Gay Liberation Front collective to demonstrate against the APA’s convention. At the 1971 conference, Kameny grabbed the microphone and yelled, “Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a declaration of war against you.”
“Homosexuals forged APA credentials and gained access to exhibit areas in the conference. They threatened anyone who claimed that homosexuals needed to be cured.”
If you don’t believe me, you can get the book and see for yourself.
Peace,
Ed
catholicdoctors.org.uk/CMQ/Feb_2000/homosexuality.htm
No empirical evidence was submitted for the 1973 vote.
"Numerous psychiatrists over the past decades have described what forces were really at work both inside and outside of the American Psychiatric Association-and what led to the removal of homosexuality as a mental disorder.
"Dr. Ronald Bayer explains how homosexual activists captured the APA for political gain.
Dr. Ronald Bayer, a pro-homosexual psychiatrist has described what actually occurred in his book, Homosexuality and American Psychiatry: The Politics of Diagnosis. (1981)
'In Chapter 4, “Diagnostic Politics: Homosexuality and the American Psychiatric Association,” Dr. Bayer says that the first attack by homosexual activists against the APA began in 1970 when this organization held its convention in San Francisco. Homosexual activists decided to disrupt the conference by interrupting speakers and shouting down and ridiculing psychiatrists who viewed homosexuality as a mental disorder. In 1971, homosexual activist Frank Kameny worked with the Gay Liberation Front collective to demonstrate against the APA’s convention. At the 1971 conference, Kameny grabbed the microphone and yelled, “Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a declaration of war against you.”
“Homosexuals forged APA credentials and gained access to exhibit areas in the conference. They threatened anyone who claimed that homosexuals needed to be cured.”
If you don’t believe me, you can get the book and see for yourself.
Peace,
Ed
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PerfectTiming
Guest
Oh dear. I knew political pressure influenced the APA’s decision but I had no idea the homosexual protesters were that militant. That’s just a disgraceful way to behave and it’s sad that the APA bowed to their pressures.
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Jaymax
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Actually is was psychiatry, not psychology. Psychiatrists are medical doctors. The social/political pressure came in to play to demand a review of all the studies and literature. When the all the data was reviewed, there was no support for continuing to classify homosexuality as a mental illness. It didn’t meet the criteria for a mental illness.
Did you read the link I provided?
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Newbie2
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It is, theologically speaking.
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PerfectTiming
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I know what psychiatry is, thank you very much. I’m a psychology student so I’m not completely ignorant.
And yes, I did.
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Hadrianus
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Jaymax,
The fact that Philo used it in the same sense as St Paul and that they both lived in a similar cultural milieu at similar times indicates that the meaining is fairly clear.
Code:
Much that you have posted is very interesting. And I am inclined to agree with the exegesis on the Sodom story as it ties in well with Scripture. The article on arsenokoitoi however is sophistical.
To anyone who knows Greek the meaning is fairly obvious and was translated as such into Latin at a time when both were living languages, and the English translation of men who lie with men is perfectly adequate. Judaeo-Christian tradition is unanimous in considering sexual acts between men to be sinful, it is thus not necessary to suggest implausible meanings for a word which has a perfectly clear sense within that tradition.
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Jaymax
Guest
You could always read the actual book to put it in context.
books.google.com.au/books?id=-LNxb_yVY4gC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Homosexuality+and+American+Psychiatry:+The+Politics+of+Diagnosis&source=bl&ots=hDSgJmFQ-C&sig=cT8HkuINSG7IzCGq0_xs4LZx3OU&hl=en&ei=pnwzTe3WF4nCvQOv4snvCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false
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PerfectTiming
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How can any context justify that kind of behaviour? Threatening people is never the way to go about trying to achieve anything. It’s unacceptable behaviour in any context.
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TAU_Wolf_2011
Guest
yes, but consider Christian groups like “You Can Run, But You Cannot Hide” (YCR) who would just as well advocate for the killing of homosexuals. Frontman Bradlee Dean says, “Muslims are calling for the executions of homosexuals in America…This just shows you they themselves are upholding the laws that are even in the Bible of the Judeo-Christian God, but they seem to be more moral than even the American Christians do, because these people are livid about enforcing their laws. They know homosexuality is an abomination…“If America won’t enforce the laws, God will raise up a foreign enemy to do just that.That is what you are seeing in America.”
minnesotaindependent.com/58393/gop-linked-punk-rock-ministry-says-executing-gays-is-moral
Any ministry that says it is moral to brutally murder in the name of God is not one to be taken lightly. This is WHY the homosexuals have the need to threaten- because they are constantly being threatened themselves by society and by conservative psychopaths like YCR.
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