Are homosexuals born with this disorder?

[InSearchofGrace]

All this debate may just diminish in importance if we look down the road. The march towards finding a biological, hormonal, or neurological basis for homosexuality or homosexual orientation, evidence that people are born that way, could be bad news for the future generation of homosexuals.

Gay Gene Eugenics.
Is There a Gay Gene?

As much as homosexuals are offended by the term “disorder” and how the Church refers to homosexuality as “objectively disordered”, which pro-gay posters have raised here, bioethicists warn that if science does reach such a discovery, the next scenario may very well be “engineering in the womb for sexual orientation”. Prenatal treatment for congenital adrenal hyperplasia is the first to test—unintentionally or not—that potential.

We know intentional and unintentional consequences can result and have already resulted with advances in science and technology. Consider how pregnant women now are in a position to undergo amniocentesis and AFP to screen for fetal congenital problems. If a baby in the womb is found to have spina bifida, a woman may decide to have in utero surgery to fix the baby’s spinal defect, depending on the presenting complexity. If prenatal testing leads to a finding of Down syndrome, the mother may opt for abortion.

IF a gay gene is discovered, at least, homosexuals know on what side the Church will be: she would not, would never, approve of women aborting “homosexual” fetuses. The bottom line is that the CC is not vested in science proving or disproving if homosexuality is an inborn condition.

This should be a sobering thought for posters who disagree with the Church position on homosexuality, and those who even go so far to say that the Church has done spiritual harm (to homosexuals) by simply preaching a time-held teaching. For all the contorted objections expressed by gay advocates in this and other threads, the objection of the Church is about the use of sex for something other than what the Creator has intended. The nature of our bodies requires no elaborate scientific data to prove the obvious fact that our bodies are not made for same-sex union. The Church is saying our hearts aren’t either, and so it’s not good for us or for our long term happiness and growth. God created us physically and emotionally for “complementary union” and procreation.

I think I have raised all what I can raise in this thread.

Peace to all.

 

[Hadrianus]

In Search of Grace,
It is utterly bizarre to say that" heterosexuals do not indentify themselves with their sexuality." One wonders if Peter Kreeft has ever met a heterosexual college boy.

 

[Kolbe300]

You and Elizabeth were talking about heterosexual orientation along side homosexual orientation. She has plainly answered your question on orientation. Then you shifted to the origin of homosexuality, saying it is elevated to a complex level by heterosexuals.

Hi ISoG. Yes, Elizabeth answered my question on orientation (which I appreciate). As for me shifting to the origin of homosexuality, is that not what this thread is about?

It is understandable that both categories do not like the reference of homosexuality as an objective disorder. I heard Peter Kreeft discuss the reason it is particularly hard for homosexuals: they identify themselves with their orientation, with their sexuality. Heterosexuals do not identify themselves with their sexuality.

If that is what Peter Kreeft says, then I have no choice but to seriously question his expertise (on any subject).

Peace!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

In Search of Grace,

       It is utterly bizarre to say that" heterosexuals do not indentify themselves with their sexuality." One wonders if Peter Kreeft has ever met a heterosexual college boy.

I understand why you say that.

I also understand the Mr. Kreeft was not referring to a specific age group of heterosexuals. His point is that one (not a homosexual) with a sexual addiction (for prostitutes) or for alcohol do not identify himself with the addiction, for example, except in AA or AA-like meetings.

All of us are sinners. Mr. Kreeft said words to the effect, that homosexuals are the only group of sinners who are not able to separate their person from the behavior. When was the last time you heard a murderer say, “If you attack murder, you attack me.” Or, someone saying “I am my adultery.”

Actions are what you do, not what you are.
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Hi ISoG. Yes, Elizabeth answered my question on orientation (which I appreciate). As for me shifting to the origin of homosexuality, is that not what this thread is about?
…

Which I am glad you did. I had this sentence in while I was composing, but somehow left it out upon posting.

…
If that is what Peter Kreeft says, then I have no choice but to seriously question his expertise (on any subject).

Peace!

If I misunderstood Mr. Kreeft on that, I will own up to the error. As to his expertise, why not judge for yourself?

Peter Kreeft

Moral Theology and Homosexuality - an audio feature

I was looking for a manuscript (text) form of the discussion, but it does not seem available. Anyway, basing on your exchange of posts with Elizabeth in a related thread, I think you will enjoy listening to the audio. I thought the Q&A at the end was very interesting, when pro-gay questioners held Mr. Kreeft’s feet to the fire, so to speak. You can judge if he is good or not.

Blessings.
,

 

[Kolbe300]

Which I am glad you did. I had this sentence in while I was composing, but somehow left it out upon posting.

Don’t you hate that?

I was looking for a manuscript (text) form of the discussion, but it does not seem available. Anyway, basing on your exchange of posts with Elizabeth in a related thread, I think you will enjoy listening to the audio. I thought the Q&A at the end was very interesting, when pro-gay questioners held Mr. Kreeft’s feet to the fire, so to speak. You can judge if he is good or not.

Thank you for the link to his speech. I will be travelling for a number of days so I’ll put it on my mp3 player. Where I disagree with the small bit of what Mr. Kreeft said is about how people identify with their sexuality. I don’t believe homosexual persons identify their entire selves by their sexuality any more or less than heterosexuals do. I think this “elevation” of sexuality by homosexuals is perceived by others because homosexuals are often times more vocal about it. But there is a reason for that, and it’s not because they only identify themselves by their homosexuality.

I didn’t tell my parents and friends about my own sexuality until I was 28 years old. I felt compelled to do that because I could no longer live with the lie I had been telling (and living) for so many years. I still have to tell the lies at my job, for fear of losing it. I pretend, day after day, to be someone I’m not. Do you know how many coworkers have tried to set me up on dates? How many times I am asked why on earth I’m not dating? In many cases, I have to lie, and I hate that. It’s why I get so irritated when people on this forum say, “If you’re celibate, why do you have to say you’re homosexual?”. That is, and please pardon me, such a stupid question. The answer: because sexuality isn’t determined by whether or not you’re having sex. Celibacy doesn’t make me straight!

I’d put it this way: Imagine yourself stuck in a clean, respectable place where 99% of the patrons are homosexual. Not just today, but all day every day. How long do you think it would be before you felt compelled to let people know you were heterosexual? Would you make it 28 years? And when you did decide to be honest, would you be identifying your entire self by nothing more than that sexuality? I certainly don’t think you would be. It would be honest, and it would be relevant. Our sexuality is constantly relevant, even when the situation has nothing to do with sex. I know that because I live that. I think everyone would know that too, if they were surrounded by people whose sexuality was different than theirs.

Anyways, I didn’t mean to ramble there. Thank you again for the link.

Peace!

 

[larkin31]

Don’t you hate that?

Thank you for the link to his speech. I will be travelling for a number of days so I’ll put it on my mp3 player. Where I disagree with the small bit of what Mr. Kreeft said is about how people identify with their sexuality. I don’t believe homosexual persons identify their entire selves by their sexuality any more or less than heterosexuals do. I think this “elevation” of sexuality by homosexuals is perceived by others because homosexuals are often times more vocal about it. But there is a reason for that, and it’s not because they only identify themselves by their homosexuality.

I didn’t tell my parents and friends about my own sexuality until I was 28 years old. I felt compelled to do that because I could no longer live with the lie I had been telling (and living) for so many years. I still have to tell the lies at my job, for fear of losing it. I pretend, day after day, to be someone I’m not. Do you know how many coworkers have tried to set me up on dates? How many times I am asked why on earth I’m not dating? In many cases, I have to lie, and I hate that. It’s why I get so irritated when people on this forum say, “If you’re celibate, why do you have to say you’re homosexual?”. That is, and please pardon me, such a stupid question. The answer: because sexuality isn’t determined by whether or not you’re having sex. Celibacy doesn’t make me straight!

I’d put it this way: Imagine yourself stuck in a clean, respectable place where 99% of the patrons are homosexual. Not just today, but all day every day. How long do you think it would be before you felt compelled to let people know you were heterosexual? Would you make it 28 years? And when you did decide to be honest, would you be identifying your entire self by nothing more than that sexuality? I certainly don’t think you would be. It would be honest, and it would be relevant. Our sexuality is constantly relevant, even when the situation has nothing to do with sex. I know that because I live that. I think everyone would know that too, if they were surrounded by people whose sexuality was different than theirs.

Anyways, I didn’t mean to ramble there. Thank you again for the link.

Peace!

Thanks for this post.

Peace on your journey.

 

[Hadrianus]

Don’t you hate that?

Thank you for the link to his speech. I will be travelling for a number of days so I’ll put it on my mp3 player. Where I disagree with the small bit of what Mr. Kreeft said is about how people identify with their sexuality. I don’t believe homosexual persons identify their entire selves by their sexuality any more or less than heterosexuals do. I think this “elevation” of sexuality by homosexuals is perceived by others because homosexuals are often times more vocal about it. But there is a reason for that, and it’s not because they only identify themselves by their homosexuality.

I didn’t tell my parents and friends about my own sexuality until I was 28 years old. I felt compelled to do that because I could no longer live with the lie I had been telling (and living) for so many years. I still have to tell the lies at my job, for fear of losing it. I pretend, day after day, to be someone I’m not. Do you know how many coworkers have tried to set me up on dates? How many times I am asked why on earth I’m not dating? In many cases, I have to lie, and I hate that. It’s why I get so irritated when people on this forum say, “If you’re celibate, why do you have to say you’re homosexual?”. That is, and please pardon me, such a stupid question. The answer: because sexuality isn’t determined by whether or not you’re having sex. Celibacy doesn’t make me straight!

I’d put it this way: Imagine yourself stuck in a clean, respectable place where 99% of the patrons are homosexual. Not just today, but all day every day. How long do you think it would be before you felt compelled to let people know you were heterosexual? Would you make it 28 years? And when you did decide to be honest, would you be identifying your entire self by nothing more than that sexuality? I certainly don’t think you would be. It would be honest, and it would be relevant. Our sexuality is constantly relevant, even when the situation has nothing to do with sex. I know that because I live that. I think everyone would know that too, if they were surrounded by people whose sexuality was different than theirs.

Anyways, I didn’t mean to ramble there. Thank you again for the link.

Peace!

I know someone to whom this happened. By circumstance he was working for a time in a largely gay environment, and one day he simply had to scream out that he liked girls.

 

[Hadrianus]

I understand why you say that.

I also understand the Mr. Kreeft was not referring to a specific age group of heterosexuals. His point is that one (not a homosexual) with a sexual addiction (for prostitutes) or for alcohol do not identify himself with the addiction, for example, except in AA or AA-like meetings.

All of us are sinners. Mr. Kreeft said words to the effect, that homosexuals are the only group of sinners who are not able to separate their person from the behavior. When was the last time you heard a murderer say, “If you attack murder, you attack me.” Or, someone saying “I am my adultery.”

Actions are what you do, not what you are.
,

I couldn’t resist the quip, but in all seriousness the analogy with addiction doesn’t hold unless we are discussing promiscuity. Homosexuals have an orientation which precedes acts. An alcoholic cannot desire alcohol unless they have first had a drink.

 

[Kolbe300]

All of us are sinners. Mr. Kreeft said words to the effect, that homosexuals are the only group of sinners who are not able to separate their person from the behavior. When was the last time you heard a murderer say, “If you attack murder, you attack me.” Or, someone saying “I am my adultery.”

Hi ISoG. I see what Mr. Kreeft is trying to say. However, what Christians, especially those trying to evangelize to homosexuals, must understand (it should be foremost on their minds) is that there are countless homosexuals out there who are not acting out sexually. And many of them are KIDS. When they hear something like, “homosexuals are the only group of sinners”, it leaves only one conclusion if it isn’t clarified: they are sinners simply by being. There is absolutely no way for me to stress how true this is. I was that kid!!! Nothing bothers me more than the thought of young homosexual people kneeling down and begging for forgiveness when they have done nothing wrong. It is an utterly hopless kind of despair to be in.

If Mr. Kreeft says homosexuals are not able to separate their person from their behavior, I would ask him how they possibly can? If the person and the sin are described by the same name, how can they separate themselves from it? A homosexual person who is sexually active is still a homosexual person, obviously. The only way they could “separate” their person from their sin is to not include their sexuality as part of their “person”. There are homsexual persons and there are homosexual acts. I can separate homosexual acts from my person (by not engaging in them). But I can’t separate homosexuality from my person. At least not honestly, I can’t. That’s probably about as confusing as an explanation could possibly be, but I tried.

I know someone to whom this happened. By circumstance he was working for a time in a largely gay environment, and one day he simply had to scream out that he liked girls.

Okay, now that is kind of funny. I can feel his pain!

Homosexuals have an orientation which precedes acts.

And there we have it…Hadrianus explained in one sentence what I couldn’t in dozens of them. Nice work!

Peace!

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Hi ISoG. I see what Mr. Kreeft is trying to say. However, what Christians, especially those trying to evangelize to homosexuals, must understand (it should be foremost on their minds) is that there are countless homosexuals out there who are not acting out sexually. And many of them are KIDS. When they hear something like, “homosexuals are the only group of sinners”, it leaves only one conclusion if it isn’t clarified: they are sinners simply by being. There is absolutely no way for me to stress how true this is. I was that kid!!! Nothing bothers me more than the thought of young homosexual people kneeling down and begging for forgiveness when they have done nothing wrong. It is an utterly hopless kind of despair to be in.

If Mr. Kreeft says homosexuals are not able to separate their person from their behavior, I would ask him how they possibly can? If the person and the sin are described by the same name, how can they separate themselves from it? A homosexual person who is sexually active is still a homosexual person, obviously. The only way they could “separate” their person from their sin is to not include their sexuality as part of their “person”. There are homsexual persons and there are homosexual acts. I can separate homosexual acts from my person (by not engaging in them). But I can’t separate homosexuality from my person. At least not honestly, I can’t. That’s probably about as confusing as an explanation could possibly be, but I tried.

Okay, now that is kind of funny. I can feel his pain!

And there we have it…Hadrianus explained in one sentence what I couldn’t in dozens of them. Nice work!

Peace!

I don’t think I’ve ever read a better explanation of how it feels to be same-sex attracted.

 

[Hadrianus]

Hi ISoG. I see what Mr. Kreeft is trying to say. However, what Christians, especially those trying to evangelize to homosexuals, must understand (it should be foremost on their minds) is that there are countless homosexuals out there who are not acting out sexually. And many of them are KIDS. When they hear something like, “homosexuals are the only group of sinners”, it leaves only one conclusion if it isn’t clarified: they are sinners simply by being. There is absolutely no way for me to stress how true this is. I was that kid!!! Nothing bothers me more than the thought of young homosexual people kneeling down and begging for forgiveness when they have done nothing wrong. It is an utterly hopless kind of despair to be in.

If Mr. Kreeft says homosexuals are not able to separate their person from their behavior, I would ask him how they possibly can? If the person and the sin are described by the same name, how can they separate themselves from it? A homosexual person who is sexually active is still a homosexual person, obviously. The only way they could “separate” their person from their sin is to not include their sexuality as part of their “person”. There are homsexual persons and there are homosexual acts. I can separate homosexual acts from my person (by not engaging in them). But I can’t separate homosexuality from my person. At least not honestly, I can’t. That’s probably about as confusing as an explanation could possibly be, but I tried.

Okay, now that is kind of funny. I can feel his pain!

And there we have it…Hadrianus explained in one sentence what I couldn’t in dozens of them. Nice work!

Peace!

At the risk of this looking like a mutual admiration society, I must say very well put. I had two friends who both attempted suicide at age 20 because they could see no possible resolution. One unfortunately succeeded. There are even a couple of modern Bible translations which use the word ‘homosexual’ which would have been meaningless to the Ancient Hebrews and the Early Christians. So this whole area is a potential mine field of misunderstanding, and there is no denying the fact that young people are especially vulnerable.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Hi ISoG. I see what Mr. Kreeft is trying to say. However, what Christians, especially those trying to evangelize to homosexuals, must understand (it should be foremost on their minds) is that there are countless homosexuals out there who are not acting out sexually. And many of them are KIDS. When they hear something like, “homosexuals are the only group of sinners”, it leaves only one conclusion if it isn’t clarified: they are sinners simply by being. There is absolutely no way for me to stress how true this is. I was that kid!!! Nothing bothers me more than the thought of young homosexual people kneeling down and begging for forgiveness when they have done nothing wrong. It is an utterly hopless kind of despair to be in.

If Mr. Kreeft says homosexuals are not able to separate their person from their behavior, I would ask him how they possibly can? If the person and the sin are described by the same name, how can they separate themselves from it? A homosexual person who is sexually active is still a homosexual person, obviously. The only way they could “separate” their person from their sin is to not include their sexuality as part of their “person”. There are homsexual persons and there are homosexual acts. I can separate homosexual acts from my person (by not engaging in them). But I can’t separate homosexuality from my person. At least not honestly, I can’t. That’s probably about as confusing as an explanation could possibly be, but I tried.
…

Peace!

I don’t think I’ve ever read a better explanation of how it feels to be same-sex attracted.

Brothers in Christ,

Kolbe, it took more than a few posts from you and re-reading your last ones to understand where you’re coming from. I now see that your situation and position are not the same as the other posters here who are active homosexuals and strong gay advocates.

Then I remembered LCMS, who’s in sort of the same category as an individual with SSA, staying on the side of Catholic teaching (on celibacy), admitting SSA but lamenting or objecting to the label of “disordered”, of being “broken”.

When you spoke of your objection to the label of “disordered”, it is not that I and perhaps the others did not wish to understand. What came across was you want the definition to be changed or removed, meaning you want societal approval for homosexual sex, as clearly being pushed by active homosexuals and gay advocates. Which does not seem to be the case, on clarification of your position. You wish to live a life of chastity, without the need to keep your SSA as though it was a deep dark secret, be ashamed or lie about it.

LCMS, we have not exchanged posts before, but I did come across yours in other threads. If I am not mistaken, you are or were the one with your fist up to the heavens for the same sort of despair, as you felt that marriage is definitely not for you and a vocation (for priesthood) is not open to you. You feel that all doors are shut and life’s meaning is elusive. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I was actually thinking of you, LCMS before you joined this thread. Now that you have, I thought of something. You must know or have heard about Courage. In reading the site, it says it welcomes all with SSA. However, it may be that most who join it are those who are older and/or have left the gay lifestyle or are living it but would want to turn to Jesus Christ. This is the impression I gathered when I watched a documentary feature of six Courage members I saw not too long ago on EWTN about this organization founded by Fr. Harvey.

If it’s true that there are many young kids who identify with SSA and are confused, with strong and mixed messages from different quarters in society, would this fact not be an opportunity for a ministry for someone or a group who is in the same position as both of you? It would be an apostolate or society like Courage, but geared towards the young. If there are LGBT clubs in all middle and high schools now, why not a secular type of Courage organization in the schools, or at least a referral to one? Or a Church-based organization in the parishes? There must be a way to reach out to the conflicted young.

Just a thought.

May God bless both of you.
,

 

[Kolbe300]

So this whole area is a potential mine field of misunderstanding, and there is no denying the fact that young people are especially vulnerable.

This is really the heart of the issue, at least for me. Too many assumptions are made and far too quickly (on both sides of the issues). If the conversation is started with misunderstanding, it can only end that way.

You wish to live a life of chastity, without the need to keep your SSA as though it was a deep dark secret, be ashamed or lie about it.

Thanks again ISoG. And yes, that is exactly what I would like for myself and for everyone in my situation.

If it’s true that there are many young kids who identify with SSA and are confused, with strong and mixed messages from different quarters in society, would this fact not be an opportunity for a ministry for someone or a group who is in the same position as both of you? It would be an apostolate or society like Courage, but geared towards the young. If there are LGBT clubs in all middle and high schools now, why not a secular type of Courage organization in the schools, or at least a referral to one? Or a Church-based organization in the parishes? There must be a way to reach out to the conflicted young.

Just a thought.

This is exactly what I hope and pray for. In fact, there are times when I feel called toward a ministry such as this. Here lies the problem - I don’t believe many Catholics in our society want this kind of ministry for one reason: they don’t understand the problem. When homosexuality is ever spoken of, it is done so in terms of the “gay agenda”, “gay marriage”, and “acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle”. What is forgotton and left behind are the countless people who are struggling with homosexuality without being a part of any of these gay movements. The homosexual persons who want to know there is hope, that sexuality can be lived in a beautiful and holy way without the requirement that they make themselves straight, have virtually no resources, especially the young.

Courage is the only resource that I know of, and I will admit to being quite critical of them. I travel for a living so I attend churches all over the country. I have NEVER heard courage spoken of or seen it listed in a bulletin (and I’m always looking). I know Courage does some great work. Their evangelization, however, is nothing short of abysmal. I have had two spiritual directors (both priests) in the past who had never heard of Courage. That alone speaks volumes.

Another problem (and it’s a big one) is that even if a ministry was set up for high-school or middle-school kids, I’d be willing to bet that no one would show up. How could a kid go to a group such as that without “outing” themselves? What about the kids who listen to their parents give voice to their disgust with homosexuals? Those kids couldn’t even consider asking their parents to go to a meeting for homosexuals. I pray for those kids continuously. They are experiencing a living hell.

I simply can’t stress the problem enough. I believe ministry would be such a fantastic thing, I’m just not sure how to do it. I grew up in a beautiful, loving, Catholic family. I never heard my parents show disgust for any human beings, ever. I knew they would accept me as I am and I knew they would never stop loving me (and I was right). Yet, it still took my 28 years. The fear and isolation a young person dealing with a homosexual orientation experiences is beyond words. I want so badly for them to be able to find hope and understanding somewhere. But, for the life of me, I can’t figure out how.

What I do know is this: as long as the Church focuses entirely on the gay “agenda”, She will leave behind all the homosexual people who have nothing to do with that agenda. Not only will they be left behind, they’ll feel condemned and pushed away. I’d like to ask what kind of “gay lifestyle” is a 15 year old boy or girl really living? The hopelessness and despair of those kids grows by the minute.

For now, the answer is prayer. And the kids growing up as I did need **so much **of it. We continuously hear the the term “hate the sin, love the sinner”. The problem I see is that the Church and it’s people focus entirely on the sin, leaving behind those who have no sin for us to hate.

I am continuously viewed as “pro-gay” on these forums when, in fact, I have absolutely no affiliation with any gay movement. People assume that by arguing FOR the homosexual person, I must be advocating sin or the acceptance of it. Good Catholics have a tendency to look through gay-agenda goggles. And how can I blame them, when I feel the Church is doing the exact same thing?

Thank you all again for the conversation.

Peace!

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Brothers in Christ,

Kolbe, it took more than a few posts from you and re-reading your last ones to understand where you’re coming from. I now see that your situation and position are not the same as the other posters here who are active homosexuals and strong gay advocates.

Then I remembered LCMS, who’s in sort of the same category as an individual with SSA, staying on the side of Catholic teaching (on celibacy), admitting SSA but lamenting or objecting to the label of “disordered”, of being “broken”.

When you spoke of your objection to the label of “disordered”, it is not that I and perhaps the others did not wish to understand. What came across was you want the definition to be changed or removed, meaning you want societal approval for homosexual sex, as clearly being pushed by active homosexuals and gay advocates. Which does not seem to be the case, on clarification of your position. You wish to live a life of chastity, without the need to keep your SSA as though it was a deep dark secret, be ashamed or lie about it.

LCMS, we have not exchanged posts before, but I did come across yours in other threads. If I am not mistaken, you are or were the one with your fist up to the heavens for the same sort of despair, as you felt that marriage is definitely not for you and a vocation (for priesthood) is not open to you. You feel that all doors are shut and life’s meaning is elusive. Please correct me if I am wrong.

For the most part, you’re correct. Just to clarify some points you may have skipped or hadn’t read.

First, I HATE my same-sex attractions. I’m not talking about, “Oh, gee, how inconvenient. How annoying.” It’s more like I’d take a nuclear warhead to my SSA if I could…yesterday. After I nuked it, I’d shoot it into space with a course set for the nearest black hole with the hopes that hell is on the other side of that black hole. That’s how much I hate my SSA.

Just to clarify.

I was actually thinking of you, LCMS before you joined this thread. Now that you have, I thought of something. You must know or have heard about Courage. In reading the site, it says it welcomes all with SSA. However, it may be that most who join it are those who are older and/or have left the gay lifestyle or are living it but would want to turn to Jesus Christ. This is the impression I gathered when I watched a documentary feature of six Courage members I saw not too long ago on EWTN about this organization founded by Fr. Harvey.

The Los Angeles area has two Courage groups, one centered in LA County and the other centerd in Orange County. I’ve been involved with both. Here’s the problem I have…every time we get together, we always talk about “the struggle.” Everything in life is centered around “the struggle.” I can’t even escape SSA at Courage!!

So, I decided to stop focusing so much on it and looking at what I can do. As drawn as I feel towards the altar and the desire I have to serve Christ at His altar, I know that right now, at this moment, I cannot be a ministerial priest. I also know that I can’t get married. But I do know that I am one of the baptized. As a result, I share in Christ’s threefold ministry of prophet, priest and king. Since I can’t offer the Mass as a ministerial priest, I can offer up the little annoyances of daily life, especially my job, as little sacrifices. I can offer prayers for the salvation of souls, especially of those who are dear to me like my family and friends. In so doing, I can exercise my share in the priesthood of Christ and possibly help get my family and friends to heaven.

While it’s not what I wanted, it’s something and maybe it’ll be worth it in the end.

If it’s true that there are many young kids who identify with SSA and are confused, with strong and mixed messages from different quarters in society, would this fact not be an opportunity for a ministry for someone or a group who is in the same position as both of you? It would be an apostolate or society like Courage, but geared towards the young. If there are LGBT clubs in all middle and high schools now, why not a secular type of Courage organization in the schools, or at least a referral to one? Or a Church-based organization in the parishes? There must be a way to reach out to the conflicted young.

Just a thought.

May God bless both of you.
,

Yes, it would be great to see an apostolate that reaches out to youth struggling with their sexual identity.

 

[Kolbe300]

So, I decided to stop focusing so much on it and looking at what I can do.

That is exactly the answer, LCMS. Instead of focusing on what I can’t do (a phycical expression of my sexuality), I try to focus on what I can do. Can that be difficult? Absolutely. I certainly don’t need to convince you of that. I remind myself all the time that the most intimate, grace-filled, and efficacious form of love is service. The sexual union between a husband and wife is sacramental. It points straight to Jesus. It’s beyond beautiful. Service, in love, to the least of those among us, actually touches Jesus. It is no less beautiful, passionate, or intimate.

Since I can’t offer the Mass as a ministerial priest, I can offer up the little annoyances of daily life, especially my job, as little sacrifices. I can offer prayers for the salvation of souls, especially of those who are dear to me like my family and friends. In so doing, I can exercise my share in the priesthood of Christ and possibly help get my family and friends to heaven.

While it’s not what I wanted, it’s something and maybe it’ll be worth it in the end.

It’s not just something, it’s something beautiful. And it will be worth it, now and in the end.

Peace!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

This is really the heart of the issue, at least for me. Too many assumptions are made and far too quickly (on both sides of the issues). If the conversation is started with misunderstanding, it can only end that way.

Thanks again ISoG. And yes, that is exactly what I would like for myself and for everyone in my situation.

This is exactly what I hope and pray for. In fact, there are times when I feel called toward a ministry such as this. Here lies the problem - I don’t believe many Catholics in our society want this kind of ministry for one reason: they don’t understand the problem. When homosexuality is ever spoken of, it is done so in terms of the “gay agenda”, “gay marriage”, and “acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle”. What is forgotton and left behind are the countless people who are struggling with homosexuality without being a part of any of these gay movements. The homosexual persons who want to know there is hope, that sexuality can be lived in a beautiful and holy way without the requirement that they make themselves straight, have virtually no resources, especially the young.

Courage is the only resource that I know of, and I will admit to being quite critical of them. I travel for a living so I attend churches all over the country. I have NEVER heard courage spoken of or seen it listed in a bulletin (and I’m always looking). I know Courage does some great work. Their evangelization, however, is nothing short of abysmal. I have had two spiritual directors (both priests) in the past who had never heard of Courage. That alone speaks volumes.

Another problem (and it’s a big one) is that even if a ministry was set up for high-school or middle-school kids, I’d be willing to bet that no one would show up. How could a kid go to a group such as that without “outing” themselves? What about the kids who listen to their parents give voice to their disgust with homosexuals? Those kids couldn’t even consider asking their parents to go to a meeting for homosexuals. I pray for those kids continuously. They are experiencing a living hell.

I simply can’t stress the problem enough. I believe ministry would be such a fantastic thing, I’m just not sure how to do it. I grew up in a beautiful, loving, Catholic family. I never heard my parents show disgust for any human beings, ever. I knew they would accept me as I am and I knew they would never stop loving me (and I was right). Yet, it still took my 28 years. The fear and isolation a young person dealing with a homosexual orientation experiences is beyond words. I want so badly for them to be able to find hope and understanding somewhere. But, for the life of me, I can’t figure out how.

What I do know is this: as long as the Church focuses entirely on the gay “agenda”, She will leave behind all the homosexual people who have nothing to do with that agenda. Not only will they be left behind, they’ll feel condemned and pushed away. I’d like to ask what kind of “gay lifestyle” is a 15 year old boy or girl really living? The hopelessness and despair of those kids grows by the minute.

For now, the answer is prayer. And the kids growing up as I did need **so much **of it. We continuously hear the the term “hate the sin, love the sinner”. The problem I see is that the Church and it’s people focus entirely on the sin, leaving behind those who have no sin for us to hate.

I am continuously viewed as “pro-gay” on these forums when, in fact, I have absolutely no affiliation with any gay movement. People assume that by arguing FOR the homosexual person, I must be advocating sin or the acceptance of it. Good Catholics have a tendency to look through gay-agenda goggles. And how can I blame them, when I feel the Church is doing the exact same thing?

Thank you all again for the conversation.

Peace!

It seems to me the problem is “how” to start a ministry, not the concept or if the one we are discussing addresses a real need or not, or there is a lack of willingness and motivation on your part or mine.

A note, however, where we have a disagreement. There is a gay agenda, but that is for another thread, and the subject has been raised in past threads, as a matter of fact.

I believe in prayer, Kolbe. Don’t get me wrong. I hold my rosary and pray every night, devoting a decade or the whole rosary for my gay brother. He has not taken up my suggestion to join Courage. As with all with SSA, he felt broken and thought that living openly in a civil union with another man would make him whole. They lived in San Francisco. Their relationship failed and he is picking up the pieces, feels more broken and devastated than ever before.

I am with you that this is not a small issue (about our conflicted young with SSA) and a ministry to help them would not be easy to organize. But Catholics are sometimes criticized for this belief, that we stop at “praying” our problems away.

Actually, I was thinking about this as I went to bed last night. This can be a proposal in conjunction with CAF. It is not lacking in enormous talent. We can start at the top with Karl Keating (I’m ambitious, aren’t I?) to help form a ministry. Just look at what he built - an on-line apostolate that is open to all, not just Catholics.

I don’t know in what state you are. I live in northern California but am often in the south. When I am, San Diego (CAF home base) is just a two-hour drive for me. If you are up to getting an organization started towards helping kids who are vulnerable in the way you have described, count me in to help.

There must be a reason that Hadrianus, you and I crossed paths in this thread. As I am about to post this, I see LCMS has posted, which I have to read.

Blessings.
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[InSearchofGrace]

So, Kolbe, for all the fervor in your arguments, why the silence? Not even a reaction to my last post.

I thought you felt strongly about the young homosexuals that “the Church is leaving behind” (with which I don’t agree) and that these kids “feel condemned and pushed away” even though they are not sinners (yet). You made a good case of your own experience.

All you brought up are criticisms against Courage, the Church ministry helping people with SSA, and reasons a specific ministry to help 15 year olds with SSA would be too hard to start. Of course, it would not be easy. That’s a given.

How about you, LCMS?
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[LCMS_No_More]

So, Kolbe, for all the fervor in your arguments, why the silence? Not even a reaction to my last post.

I thought you felt strongly about the young homosexuals that “the Church is leaving behind” (with which I don’t agree) and that these kids “feel condemned and pushed away” even though they are not sinners (yet). You made a good case of your own experience.

All you brought up are criticisms against Courage, the Church ministry helping people with SSA, and reasons a specific ministry to help 15 year olds with SSA would be too hard to start. Of course, it would not be easy. That’s a given.

How about you, LCMS?
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I’ve been a member of Courage since before I joined the Church (4 years ago this Easter, I believe). My only problem is that it’s always about “the struggle.” Sometimes, I find I do better if I relax and just go about my business. If I’m constantly going about worried about and living in “the struggle,” I become neurotic and fearful of life. I can’t enjoy ANYTHING, not even Mass. When I relax and simply live life, I do much better. Sure, the temptations are there, but they aren’t nearly as intense and it’s easier to remain right. Courage, while helpful, can also be very burdensome simply because of its focus. I like the fellowship, but there’s that 500 pound gorilla in the room and it makes it hard to relax and just BE.

As to reaching out to the youth, I’d be willing to help but I have no idea how it would work or what it would do.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I’ve been a member of Courage since before I joined the Church (4 years ago this Easter, I believe). My only problem is that it’s always about “the struggle.” Sometimes, I find I do better if I relax and just go about my business. If I’m constantly going about worried about and living in “the struggle,” I become neurotic and fearful of life. I can’t enjoy ANYTHING, not even Mass. When I relax and simply live life, I do much better. Sure, the temptations are there, but they aren’t nearly as intense and it’s easier to remain right. Courage, while helpful, can also be very burdensome simply because of its focus. I like the fellowship, but there’s that 500 pound gorilla in the room and it makes it hard to relax and just BE.

As to reaching out to the youth, I’d be willing to help but I have no idea how it would work or what it would do.

Thank you for replying, LCMS.

Courage has had successes in providing a much needed outreach program and spiritual support system to people with homosexual desires wanting the option of chastity instead of secular society’s perspective of acting on said desires. Still, its program is probably not designed to be a custom fit for each member and therefore can’t satisfy or meet the expectations of each and everyone who joins.

I laud you for augmenting your time with Courage with your own coping means. It can only be beneficial to you and an indication that you wish to seriously manage if not overcome the SSA that you want to “nuke and shoot to hell.”

Btw, according to the Courage site, there will be a Youth Site, which is under construction. I communicated with the Central Office in New York, asking when it would be up, and if Courage in fact will have a program to specifically help teens with SSA. If so, that would be an excellent sign, don’t you think? Good things take time, LC.

Kolbe has not responded to my post, but I now remember his mention of travel plans because of work, probably the reason he has not returned to the thread.

In the mean time, I found these links which may give ideas to you and Kolbe about how to start a ministry. I need to read through them myself:

preparedcatholic.com/starting-a-catholic-youth-group-from-scratch-part-1-of-10-set-goals/

ourdailybreadmissions.org/how_to_start_a_christian_ministr.htm
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