Are homosexuals born with this disorder?

[Kolbe300]

So, Kolbe, for all the fervor in your arguments, why the silence? Not even a reaction to my last post.

Trust me ISoG, my silence isn’t because of a lack of fervor or a disagreement with your posts. As you figured out, I am on the road. I just got to my hotel room.

I thought you felt strongly about the young homosexuals that “the Church is leaving behind” (with which I don’t agree) and that these kids “feel condemned and pushed away” even though they are not sinners (yet). You made a good case of your own experience.

Unfortunately, the Church is leaving young homosexual people behind. I truly wish your disagreement with me there meant I was wrong, but I’m not. I know that. I don’t think the Church is doing this on purpose, but it’s happening. You mentioned the gay agenda. I don’t disagree at all that there is a strong gay-movement on many fronts. The thing is, while I don’t agree with what the gay movement is pushing for, I absolutely sympathize with why they want things like gay marriage. My heart goes out to them. Many of them have no faith, and many of them are the very ones that have been pushed away from all sorts of Churches, not just ours. The Church has to stand up for what it believes and fight for what needs to be fought for in these cases. It just can’t make that the entire focus.

All you brought up are criticisms against Courage, the Church ministry helping people with SSA, and reasons a specific ministry to help 15 year olds with SSA would be too hard to start. Of course, it would not be easy. That’s a given.

Courage does some great work, as I mentioned before. That group is a necessity, but I do critisize their evangelization. It’s not that a ministry for homosexual kids would be hard to start. The hard part is creating a ministry that kids could actually join without being “outed”. We could have the greatest ministry in the world, but if the intended audience is terrified to show up, there is a big problem.

I am with you that this is not a small issue (about our conflicted young with SSA) and a ministry to help them would not be easy to organize. But Catholics are sometimes criticized for this belief, that we stop at “praying” our problems away.

I absolutely agree with you. Last year I purchased a web domain and am very slowly working on building a website intended entirely for homosexual kids and young adults. I’ve seen many young SSA kids visit CAF in the years I’ve been here. The majority of the time they are driven away. I cringe every time I see one show up here. That is, however, what led me to believe that the internet is one place where kids can seek help anonymously (which is vital for many of them). I do believe that is a good place to start.

Actually, I was thinking about this as I went to bed last night. This can be a proposal in conjunction with CAF. It is not lacking in enormous talent. We can start at the top with Karl Keating (I’m ambitious, aren’t I?) to help form a ministry.

This is a fantastic idea because website technology is not my forte. I’m crawling right now but learning to walk. It isn’t just the technology either, it’s how to present and offer a safe place for young people to find hope. The imperitave, for me, is that there be a place free of condemnation.

I can’t thank you enough for the offer of help. There is no doubt that I am going to need plenty of help. I would also like to talk to Courage about what they are planning for their youth website. This is something I will continue to work on and will keep in prayer. It’s a difficult thing, but like you said, it can be done.

Thank you again, I really do appreciate it and I do believe we meet people for a reason. You just never know. By the way, I will be out of the country for over a week so please don’t think I’m ever ignoring you with silence.

Peace!

 

[Kolbe300]

I believe in prayer, Kolbe. Don’t get me wrong. I hold my rosary and pray every night, devoting a decade or the whole rosary for my gay brother. He has not taken up my suggestion to join Courage. As with all with SSA, he felt broken and thought that living openly in a civil union with another man would make him whole. They lived in San Francisco. Their relationship failed and he is picking up the pieces, feels more broken and devastated than ever before.

I forgot to mention that I will be keeping your brother in my prayers. He is certainly not alone in this battle.

Blessings!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Trust me ISoG, my silence isn’t because of a lack of fervor or a disagreement with your posts. As you figured out, I am on the road. I just got to my hotel room. …

Thank you for your late night reply!

Unfortunately, the Church is leaving young homosexual people behind. I truly wish your disagreement with me there meant I was wrong, but I’m not. I know that. I don’t think the Church is doing this on purpose, but it’s happening. You mentioned the gay agenda. I don’t disagree at all that there is a strong gay-movement on many fronts. The thing is, while I don’t agree with what the gay movement is pushing for, I absolutely sympathize with why they want things like gay marriage. My heart goes out to them. Many of them have no faith, and many of them are the very ones that have been pushed away from all sorts of Churches, not just ours. The Church has to stand up for what it believes and fight for what needs to be fought for in these cases. It just can’t make that the entire focus. …

I understand what you are saying. The Church (I mean CC when I use this, not churches of other faiths), however, is doing triage, you could say. The adult homosexuals are the ones who are presenting to the spiritual Emergency Room. The young ones, by virtue of needing some form of consent or cooperation by their parents as most are living at home, are in the wings. Not forgotten, though. That is why, most likely, that Courage has a Youth website under construction. Do you really think that the Church can have a meaningful spiritual intervention to help teen homosexuals in the forefront, or have a program right off the bat, as the hierarchy is reeling from the scandal involving the young ones? Can you imagine the barrage of criticism it would get if it puts the needs of young homosexuals first? To stem future occasions of sexual abuse of the youth, the Church has placed a risk management program in its parishes and schools. Ever heard of Virtus? Not an insignificant system the Church put in place there, at the same time it is dealing with the massive litigation and compensation of abuse victims with established claims.

Let’s not forget that the blame for society’s “lost” youth with SSA is with our society where education and culture have bought into the faithless secular modus vivendi of indulgence and message “go ahead and act on your sex urges, including same sex urges” because “it does not hurt you or anyone.” The organization of psychologists and psychiatrists are very much part of this now pervasive way of thinking. Kolbe, whether you agree or not, there is much verbal engineering taking place, obviously preceding social engineering by those at the top tiers in secular society.

…Courage does some great work, as I mentioned before. That group is a necessity, but I do critisize their evangelization. It’s not that a ministry for homosexual kids would be hard to start. The hard part is creating a ministry that kids could actually join without being “outed”. We could have the greatest ministry in the world, but if the intended audience is terrified to show up, there is a big problem.

I absolutely agree with you. Last year I purchased a web domain and am very slowly working on building a website intended entirely for homosexual kids and young adults. I’ve seen many young SSA kids visit CAF in the years I’ve been here. The majority of the time they are driven away. I cringe every time I see one show up here. That is, however, what led me to believe that the internet is one place where kids can seek help anonymously (which is vital for many of them). I do believe that is a good place to start.

This is a fantastic idea because website technology is not my forte. I’m crawling right now but learning to walk. It isn’t just the technology either, it’s how to present and offer a safe place for young people to find hope. The imperitave, for me, is that there be a place free of condemnation. …

The points you raised are good. Of course, we know that the internet is also the ground where elements promoting sexual licentiousness have camped and mean to stay.

I can’t thank you enough for the offer of help. There is no doubt that I am going to need plenty of help. I would also like to talk to Courage about what they are planning for their youth website. This is something I will continue to work on and will keep in prayer. It’s a difficult thing, but like you said, it can be done.

Thank you again, I really do appreciate it and I do believe we meet people for a reason. You just never know. By the way, I will be out of the country for over a week so please don’t think I’m ever ignoring you with silence.

Peace!

It looks like we share many points of agreement. Have a good and safe trip ahead!

P.S. Your kind words and prayers for my brother are much appreciated.

 

[Kolbe300]

I understand what you are saying. The Church (I mean CC when I use this, not churches of other faiths), however, is doing triage, you could say. The adult homosexuals are the ones who are presenting to the spiritual Emergency Room. The young ones, by virtue of needing some form of consent or cooperation by their parents as most are living at home, are in the wings. Not forgotten, though.

Well said, and I agree. The Church certainly isn’t leaving anyone behind on purpose. Parents truly are the answer. My parents saved my life by the way they lived theirs and by the words they spoke. I hope parents today realize that their child could very well be dealing with homosexuality. It doesn’t matter how holy or how wonderful their family is. It’s happening and parents must be aware that their words can heal and they can also cut like a knife. And all of it can be happening without their realizing it at all. If a child hears only words of disgust towards homosexual acts and nothing about the hope available for homosexual persons, they are left with the force of that disgust and a despairing lack of hope.

That is why, most likely, that Courage has a Youth website under construction. Do you really think that the Church can have a meaningful spiritual intervention to help teen homosexuals in the forefront, or have a program right off the bat, as the hierarchy is reeling from the scandal involving the young ones? Can you imagine the barrage of criticism it would get if it puts the needs of young homosexuals first?

Unfortunately, these are good points. And terribly sad. Personally, I think there would be a barrage of criticism if the Church focused on the needs of young homosexuals at all, let alone first.

Let’s not forget that the blame for society’s “lost” youth with SSA is with our society where education and culture have bought into the faithless secular modus vivendi of indulgence and message “go ahead and act on your sex urges, including same sex urges” because “it does not hurt you or anyone.” The organization of psychologists and psychiatrists are very much part of this now pervasive way of thinking. Kolbe, whether you agree or not, there is much verbal engineering taking place, obviously preceding social engineering by those at the top tiers in secular society.

I agree with you. Society as a whole has damaged the very idea and purpose of sexuality. I would not want to be a kid in today’s world.

The points you raised are good. Of course, we know that the internet is also the ground where elements promoting sexual licentiousness have camped and mean to stay.

You are exactly right. Ministry is certainly needed, but the internet can be a dangerous place. I do believe it’s a good place to start, as the internet can allow the often times needed anonymity. This forum has proven that as I’ve seen young people dealing with homosexuality coming here for support. I think it could be a start for something much bigger and much more personal.

It looks like we share many points of agreement. Have a good and safe trip ahead!

Thank you very much again for joining in a meaningful conversation. It’s been great. This trip I’m leaving on is a mission trip so any prayers you can offer would be greatly appreciated! Blessings and prayers to you!

Peace!

 

[larkin31]

…I agree with you. Society as a whole has damaged the very idea and purpose of sexuality. I would not want to be a kid in today’s world. …

The world today is a TERRIFIC world to be young in: full of faith, and hope, and freedom, and potential. It is the best time to be born into so far!

 

[kaid100]

bill,
Homosexuality is a sin as described in the Bible (Rom.1:26-28.
Do you think God would create a person this way on purpose and then send them to hell.
Think about it.
God loves all sinners. But, he tells us we must repent.
Sex before marriage is also a sin.

bluelake

Was the writer of Romans someone who generally tried to see the best in people, or did he have a history of persecuting people he didn’t understand?

 

[Windfish]

This is a subject near and dear to my heart. For years, and still to this day, I sometimes have difficulty discerning what my sexuality actually is. One of the odd things about homosexuality, imo, is that you really do not know if you are a homosexual or not. Who told you that you are? What test did you take that told you with objective certainty that you are? Are your feelings really an objective means to determine that you are a homosexual? I am attracted to women and want to get married, but there are times when, for reasons unknown to me, I think about men. Maybe God is allowing me to have this confusion so that I can better identify with our gay brothers and sisters. I do not know.

But as to the origin of homosexuality, I think that is yet to be definitively determined. In my opinion, the Catholic intellectual content on this subject is lacking. If what I have read about NARTH is actually true, than shame on Catholic Answers for patronizing them as an authority on this subject. CA should correct the situation lest there be scandal.

 

[Tonitz]

I have to agree with Windfish. By what logic does one not know the source of a dynamic and yet have the means to call it a disorder???

 

[Windfish]

I have to agree with Windfish. By what logic does one not know the source of a dynamic and yet have the means to call it a disorder???

I think you might want to read what I wrote again since I actually agree with the Church that is objectively disordered.

 

[edwest2]

This is a subject near and dear to my heart. For years, and still to this day, I sometimes have difficulty discerning what my sexuality actually is. One of the odd things about homosexuality, imo, is that you really do not know if you are a homosexual or not. Who told you that you are? What test did you take that told you with objective certainty that you are? Are your feelings really an objective means to determine that you are a homosexual? I am attracted to women and want to get married, but there are times when, for reasons unknown to me, I think about men. Maybe God is allowing me to have this confusion so that I can better identify with our gay brothers and sisters. I do not know.

But as to the origin of homosexuality, I think that is yet to be definitively determined. In my opinion, the Catholic intellectual content on this subject is lacking. If what I have read about NARTH is actually true, than shame on Catholic Answers for patronizing them as an authority on this subject. CA should correct the situation lest there be scandal.

Have you read what the Church teaches and why? At present, the gay rights movement is saying that gay people are born that way, or, at a very early age, acquire a certain orientation. The fact is, until 1973, homosexuality was listed as a disorder by the APA. That is why certain laws were drafted. Those in charge of drafting those laws listened to the experts.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Kolbe300]

The world today is a TERRIFIC world to be young in: full of faith, and hope, and freedom, and potential. It is the best time to be born into so far!

I agree with you larkin, the world is full of faith, hope, freedom, and potential. It is a terrific place. That being said, I still wouldn’t want to be a kid growing up today. Kids today have a lot more things pushing and pulling them in all sorts of wrong directions. I think they’re being bombarded by negative influence more now than ever before.

Peace!

 

[Kolbe300]

At present, the gay rights movement is saying that gay people are born that way, or, at a very early age, acquire a certain orientation.

Hi Ed. I would say that until someone proves otherwise, they could be right. I knew my orientation was towards those of the same sex at a very early age. (As have nearly all the gay people I’ve known.) The simple fact is, we don’t know for sure.

Peace!

Peace,
Ed

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…
I think your position is that homosexual acts are not intrinsically disordered and people do not choose to be homosexual.
…

@ InSearchofGrace;

You have correctly assessed my stance, and I firmly hold that for a number of scholarly, religious, and mostly experiential reasons having to do with the primacy of Love over law, …
…
the Church says "Well, that’s a hard lot, but you have to live with it and never engage in that part of human intimacy that for most of us means love itself. Tough cookies."
…
the Church is unclear as to the actual origin of the condition and lacking that etiology already claims it to be a disorder based on what may in the long run prove to be far more of sociological sanctions than anything actually divine. …

All that is to say that in my conscience, whatever the official stance of the Church may be by force of momentum, there is a whole lot more latitude deserved in this issue than it is being ecclesiastically given from an official position. And I will stand before God as my judge with that and own it.

**Then therefore it should not be considered a priori a disorder. And those who “sympathize” while maintaining that it is a disorder are carrying out the activity of patronizing and are therefore abetting the persecution of our gay brothers ans sisters. ** …

I have to agree with Windfish. By what logic does one not know the source of a dynamic and yet have the means to call it a disorder???

I think you might want to read what I wrote again since I actually agree with the Church that is objectively disordered.

[bolding added]

The above posts clearly reflect your strong anti-Catholic position and your rejection of Church teaching on homosexuality.

You are even quick to believe that another poster shares your view that the Catholic Church is in error for referring to homosexuality as a disorder.

In another thread “Is Religion a Scam”, you have made enough anti-Catholic statements as well that a poster asked you directly what is up with you with your potshots against Church beliefs. So, this is not the only thread where you provided basis for the question and I am not the only poster taking you to task on your self ID as a Catholic.

Why ID yourself as Catholic? At least the agnostics and other Christians with differing beliefs on the subject (of homosexuality) are truthful with their religious affiliation and when we debate them, it is not confusing.
,

 

[Tonitz]

IsoG, I label myself Catholic because that is what I was baptized as. I was educated in excellent Catholic schools. I nearly became a Priest. I have studied our religion and comparative religion for some forty five years now. I have questions and reminders, not pot shots. I question the Church’s stand on homosexuality because of it’s own logic. I don’t buy it. And I am not anti Catholic, I am for critical thinking, unless in your mind critical thinking is anti Catholic. And insinuating that I ought to use another label than the one I own does not answer my questions. Or yours.

 

[larkin31]

I agree with you larkin, the world is full of faith, hope, freedom, and potential. It is a terrific place. That being said, I still wouldn’t want to be a kid growing up today. Kids today have a lot more things pushing and pulling them in all sorts of wrong directions. I think they’re being bombarded by negative influence more now than ever before.

Peace!

I work with kids for a living. They don’t share your general view that they don’t want to be a kid today. My sense is that you are projecting your own issues onto them. Being a kid is difficult any time. Confronting sexuality, for example, is much preferable, I would argue, to confronting poverty and disease and rampant childhood mortality. Which, in some places, is still confronted daily, and many of those parents of those children long for the opportunities of the United States. And properly so.

 

[edwest2]

For those of a more intellectual bent, I’ve noticed a certain level of censorship occurring regarding this subject.

firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/08/homosexuality-and-the-moral-failure-of-higher-education

Peace,
Ed

 

[InSearchofGrace]

IsoG, I label myself Catholic because that is what I was baptized as. I was educated in excellent Catholic schools. I nearly became a Priest. I have studied our religion and comparative religion for some forty five years now. I have questions and reminders, not pot shots. I question the Church’s stand on homosexuality because of it’s own logic. I don’t buy it. And I am not anti Catholic, I am for critical thinking, unless in your mind critical thinking is anti Catholic. And insinuating that I ought to use another label than the one I own does not answer my questions. Or yours.

You joined a Catholic board and you can read the mission statement yourself in the Home page of the site.

I understand your opinions, but whether you see it or not and justify them as critical thinking, are your motives just an invitation for critical thinking? Martin Luther posted his arguments on the door of the Catholic Church in 1517 (and numerous dissenters through the time after him in other ways). It can be argued that this is what you are doing on this board.

Just so you know, there are number of ex-Catholics or former Catholics who provide this category so as not to confuse whatever the debate is, and the issue of affiliation is clear from the get-go. It flushes out an unnecessary point of discussion.

Perhaps we should let the moderators decide for your case. It is not the first time this sort of matter came up.

Peace to you on your journey.

 

[Hadrianus]

To return, briefly, to the original post which I hope will have some relevance to the continuing debates, it is worth pointing out that nowhere in the CCC does it say that people with a homosexual orientation are disordered. This leap tends to be made by people on all sides of the debate, but it’s not in the text.

Para 2351 et seq discusses offenses against chastity. It begins by defining lust as a disordered desire. and goes on to explain that sexual pleasure is morally disordered when it is isolated from its procreative and unitive purpose.

Subsequently the Catechism goes on to refer to masturbation as a 'gravely disordered action." Later it refers to homosexual acts as “intrinsically disordered.” then in para 2358 it says that this inclination the tendency to homosexual acts] is “objectively disordered.”

It is worth comparing paragraphs 2366 and 2370 in which it speaks first of marital relations as 'ordered per se to the procreation of human life" and subsequently calls any act which renders procreation impossible as “intrinsically evil.”

A close reading of the text shows that nowhere does the Church make any judgement on a homosexual orientation, a term which is not even employed. nor does the Church make any attempt to discuss the cause of an inclination to homosexuality. On the other hand, it is very clear that the Church considers lust a disorder, and I would recommend those interested to read the entire section from 2331 onwards which deals with the 6th commandment.

Finally, it’s worth adding that the Latin for disordered is “inordinata” which can just as well be translated as ‘inordinate’ that is something which goes beyond the right order of things. It does not imply mental illness or malice.

In fact, the Catholic teaching on homosexual acts must be seen in the context both of the totality of the Catholic understanding of human sexuality as chaste only when ordered towards procreation and the family which allows for the proper development of the child, and in the light of Original Sin which causes the passions to be disordered in all people, though in different ways.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

To return, briefly, to the original post which I hope will have some relevance to the continuing debates, it is worth pointing out that nowhere in the CCC does it say that people with a homosexual orientation are disordered. This leap tends to be made by people on all sides of the debate, but it’s not in the text. …

Hadrianus, here is the USCCB statement:

Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care

Issued by USCCB, November 14, 2006
Copyright © 2006, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. All rights reserved.

on Page 5 - 7
…
*Homosexual Inclination Is Not Itself a Sin

While the Church teaches that homosexual acts are immoral, she does distinguish between engaging in homosexual acts and having a homosexual inclination. While the former is always objectively sinful, the latter is not. To the extent that a homosexual tendency or inclination is not subject to one’s free will, one is not morally culpable for that tendency. Although one would be morally culpable if one were voluntarily to entertain homosexual temptations or to choose to act on them, simply having the tendency is not a sin. Consequently, the Church does not teach that the experience of homosexual attraction is in itself sinful.

The homosexual inclination is objectively disordered, i.e., it is an inclination that predisposes one toward what is truly not good for the human person. Of course, heterosexual persons not uncommonly have disordered sexual inclinations as well. It is not enough for a sexual inclination to be heterosexual for it to be properly ordered. For example, any tendency toward sexual pleasure that is not subordinated to the greater goods of love and marriage is disordered, in that it inclines a person towards a use of sexuality that does not accord with the divine plan for creation. There is the intrinsic disorder of what is directed toward that which is evil in all cases (contra naturam). There is also the accidental disorder of what is not properly ordered by right reason, what fails to attain the proper measure of virtue (contra rationem).

It is crucially important to understand that saying a person has a particular inclination that is disordered is not to say that the person as a whole is disordered. Nor does it mean that one has been rejected by God or the Church. Sometimes the Church is misinterpreted or misrepresented as teaching that persons with homosexual inclinations are objectively disordered, as if everything about them were disordered or rendered morally defective by this inclination. Rather, the disorder is in that particular inclination, which is not ordered toward the fulfillment of the natural ends of human sexuality. Because of this, acting in accord with such an inclination simply cannot contribute to the true good of the human person. Nevertheless, while the particular inclination to homosexual acts is disordered, the person retains his or her intrinsic human dignity and value.

Furthermore, it is not only sexual inclinations that can be disordered within a human
person. Other inclinations can likewise be disordered, such as those that lead to envy, malice, or greed. We are all damaged by the effects of sin, which causes desires to become disordered.

Simply possessing such inclinations does not constitute a sin, at least to the extent that they are beyond one’s control. Acting on such inclinations, however, is always wrong. Many in our culture have difficulty understanding Catholic moral teaching because they do not understand that morality has an objective basis. Some hold that moral norms are nothing more than guidelines for behavior that happen to be widely accepted by people of a particular culture at a particular time. Catholic tradition, however, holds that the basis of morality is found in the natural order established by the Creator, an order that is not destroyed but rather elevated by the transforming power of the grace that comes to us through Jesus Christ. Good actions are in accord with that order. By acting in this way, persons fulfill their authentic humanity, and this constitutes their ultimate happiness. Immoral actions, actions that are not in accord with the natural order of things, are incapable of contributing to true human fulfillment and happiness. In fact, immoral actions are destructive of the human person because they degrade and undermine the human dignity given us by God.*
…
[bolding added]

Read full document here

As you will notice, the USCCB uses the term “inclination”, not “orientation”. Unless you think the two are not synonymous, this clarifies the position of the Church on the issue.

The middle paragraph that is bolded should be of great interest (and I hope relief) to Kolbe and LCMS.

Blessings.
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

@Kolbe and LCMS,

You may want to read all of the 26 pages of the link I provided

Ministry to Persons with Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care

Knowing your concern for the conflicted youth with SSA, note that the pastoral care section in the end does mention in particular young people at risk and adolescents who struggle with same sex attraction.

God bless you both!
,