Are homosexuals born with this disorder?

[Hadrianus]

InsOG,

Thanks for posting those texts which I was unfamiliar with. They seem to follow the same thought as the Catechism. Actually, I do think there is a difference between “orientation” and 'inclination." I don’t think the Church ever uses the word orientation whether homosexual or heterosexual in any official document. The reason is because, unlike Freudian thought, Catholic teaching does not consider sexual attraction to be absolutely integral to being a human being. Gender is, but sexual desire is not. Many of the greatest saints seem through grace to have transcended all carnal desires whether sexual or any other kind, and sexual desire will serve no purpose in heaven and thus not exist.
Our society today is hypersexualized and defines people in ways which our predecessors, Christian, and probably even Pagan, would find extreme to say the least.
Let us not forget that the best Pagans themselves regarded perpetual continence as an ideal state though they may rarely have practiced it.Let us remember that in the ancient polemic against Christinaity it was “atheism” ie impiety towards the pagan gods, that was the chief crime in their eyes. Few people before the 19nth Century would have objected to the Catholic sexual ethic itself even if Protestants did object to the monastic orders.

In saying this I don’t mean to disparage the use of the term ‘orientation’ which is convenient so long as one remembers not to view sexual matters in an exaggerated light.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

InsOG,

…Actually, I do think there is a difference between “orientation” and 'inclination." I don’t think the Church ever uses the word orientation whether homosexual or heterosexual in any official document. The reason is because, unlike Freudian thought, Catholic teaching does not consider sexual attraction to be absolutely integral to being a human being. Gender is, but sexual desire is not. …

Not correct, Hadrianus. With reference to the part of your post above, previous USCCB documents have used the word “orientation” in both heterosexual and homosexual context, with a clear suggestion that sexual attraction is integral to one’s personality.

Excerpt from Always Our Children: A Pastoral Message to Parents of Homosexual Children and Suggestions for Pastoral Ministers, a USCCB 1997 document.
…
***In light of this possibility, therefore, it seems appropriate to understand sexual orientation (heterosexual or homosexual) as a deep-seated dimension of one’s personality and to recognize its relative stability in a person. A homosexual orientation produces a stronger emotional and sexual attraction toward individuals of the same sex, rather than toward those of the opposite sex. It does not totally rule out interest in, care for, and attraction toward members of the opposite sex. Having a homosexual orientation does not necessarily mean a person will engage in homosexual activity.

There seems to be no single cause of a homosexual orientation. A common opinion of experts is that there are multiple factors—genetic, hormonal, psychological—that may give rise to it. Generally, homosexual orientation is experienced as a given, not as something freely chosen. By itself, therefore, a homosexual orientation cannot be considered sinful, for morality presumes the freedom to choose. ***
…
Here is also an excerpt from the U.S. bishops’ 1990 document, Human Sexuality: A Catholic Perspective for Education and Lifelong Learning
…
*Our sexuality seems to be a core dimension of our experience of relating to others, our desire to move out from isolation to encounter, the first step toward true love. As the bishops define it, “sexuality is a fundamental component of personality in and through which we, as male or female, experience our relatedness to self, others, the world and even God” (Human Sexuality, 9).

The bishops speak of human sexuality as a wonderful gift, to be treasured, respected and nurtured. So too, they speak positively about sex, a narrower reality, which refers “either to the biological aspects of being male or female (i.e., a synonym for one’s gender) or to the expressions of sexuality, which have physical, emotional, and spiritual dimensions, particularly genital actions resulting in sexual intercourse and/or orgasm” (Human Sexuality, 9).

Acknowledging the potential for abuse or misuse of our sexuality —sometimes intentional (i.e., sin), often not—the bishops highlight the challenge, the “awesome responsibility” that befalls the steward entrusted with any precious gift.

Whether one is married, single or a vowed celibate, whether one is heterosexual or homosexual, and regardless of one’s age or maturity, dealing creatively with sexuality remains a fundamental and lifelong task. The art of loving wisely and well is multifaceted. In First Corinthians, Paul reminds us that true love is "patient and kind, not self-seeking.
…
For persons with a homosexual orientation. As noted earlier, sexuality is a core, divinely given dimension of every human being. “It is reflected physiologically, psychologically, and relationally in a person’s gender identity as well as in one’s primary sexual orientation and behavior” (Human Sexuality, 54). For some men and women this involves the discovery that one has a homosexual orientation, “that one’s sexual inclinations are oriented predominantly toward persons of the same sex” (Human Sexuality, 54).

However, the bishops go on to express tactfully, but clearly the Church’s teaching that “homosexual [genital] activity, as distinguished from homosexual orientation, is morally wrong” (Human Sexuality, 55). While the gay or lesbian orientation is not morally wrong (nor freely chosen), a homosexual person is not thereby free to engage in genital sexual activity with persons of the same sex.*
…

 

[Hadrianus]

I notice that the USCCB documents refer to this as a ‘dimension’ of personality. One could debate even what ‘personality’ means as it too is not really easy to define, but more to the point the USCCB use of the word ‘sexuality’ is ambivalent, at sometimes seeming to mean gender at other times sexual desires at others the obvious relational differences that arise between different genders. If sexuality is to mean sexual desire and at the same time part of the core of a human person then we must assume that there will be sexual desire in heaven, something which is quite alien to the Catholic theological tradition.\

The document is heavily dependent upon Freudian notions of the person with an overlay of personalism. Insofar as it expresses the same teaching on a moral act as is taught by the Roman Church it is expressing genuine Catholic doctrine. The psychological discussion however is not Catholic doctrine, it is the opinion of the present day.

The Magisterium or teaching authority of the Church is exercised by the Pope and the bishops in communion with him. The USCCB is a bureaucratic body whose texts are neither those of the Pope nor of the individual bishops. The USCCB often says good things but the level of doctrinal authority of these documents is fairly low

I’ll stick with the CCC and its use of ‘inclination’ (Latin ‘propensio’) which accords better with the classic Catholic tradition of theological anthropology…

 

[Hadrianus]

PS Upon checking the link I see that one of these documents is actually an article written by someone called Richard Sparks who seems to be paraphrasing a document from 1990.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I’ve been a member of Courage since before I joined the Church (4 years ago this Easter, I believe). My only problem is that it’s always about “the struggle.” Sometimes, I find I do better if I relax and just go about my business. If I’m constantly going about worried about and living in “the struggle,” I become neurotic and fearful of life. I can’t enjoy ANYTHING, not even Mass. When I relax and simply live life, I do much better. Sure, the temptations are there, but they aren’t nearly as intense and it’s easier to remain right. Courage, while helpful, can also be very burdensome simply because of its focus. I like the fellowship, but there’s that 500 pound gorilla in the room and it makes it hard to relax and just BE.

As to reaching out to the youth, I’d be willing to help but I have no idea how it would work or what it would do.

LC,

Have you heard about this site Journey into Manhood, a Healing Weekend? If not, you may want to check on it. There is a July 29 schedule in Southern California.

Blessings,
,

 

[white_sheep]

Are homosexuals born with this disorder?

No. Not all of them anyway. I wouldn’t argue with a number that said 2% of homosexuals were genetically so, but mostly it is caused by other factors. The reason for that is 1/5000 is a pretty standard number for negative recessive traits.

I have never heard a definitive answer on this subject. I believe this behavior is not learned, but if it happens at birth, why would God place such a heavy cross on any human being he created?

Why wouldn’t he? Is their cross to remain sexually pure really that much heavier than mine, or yours? I don’t think so.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

LC,

Have you heard about this site Journey into Manhood, a Healing Weekend? If not, you may want to check on it. There is a July 29 schedule in Southern California.

Blessings,
,

Yes, it’s WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of my price range.

 

[larkin31]

No. Not all of them anyway. I wouldn’t argue with a number that said 2% of homosexuals were genetically so, but mostly it is caused by other factors. The reason for that is 1/5000 is a pretty standard number for negative recessive traits

Not for human infertility rates. The occurrence frequency is much higher.

 

[RickWilson1]

No. Not all of them anyway. I wouldn’t argue with a number that said 2% of homosexuals were genetically so, but mostly it is caused by other factors. The reason for that is 1/5000 is a pretty standard number for negative recessive traits.

Why wouldn’t he? Is their cross to remain sexually pure really that much heavier than mine, or yours? I don’t think so.

Here are my thoughts:

One. Homosexuality is an unchangeable nature; it is not a lifestyle choice.Two. All people are created in the image of God. The homosexuality of gays and lesbians,
created by God, is good and not evil.Three. The homosexual is just as normal a person as a heterosexual and should not be thought of in sexual terms.Four. Several passages in the Bible speak of same-gender sex. In every instance, the Bible is talking about heterosexuals who, filled with lust, have become sex perverts. The
Bible says nothing about innate homosexuality as we know it today or about people who
are homosexuals. Five. The burden imposed on homosexuals by society is a great evil. We should standin revulsion against, and do all we can to oppose, the prejudice, the hatreds, and the condemnation of a society that make the homosexual’s life so difficult.SIx. It is not only unrealistic to expect homosexuals to live without sex, but also it is psychologically harmful to them for them to do so. Seven… As in society, gays and lesbians should be accepted and affirmed in our churchesand given any opportunity for service, including ordination, that others have. And here is an interest fact: John Boswell… has discovered that, whereas the church did not declare heterosexual marriage to be a sacrament until 1215 C.E., one of the Vatican Library’s earliest Greek liturgical documents is a marriage ceremony for two persons of the same sex. The document dates to the fourth century, if not earlier. In other words, nine centuries before
heterosexual marriage was declared a sacrament, the church liturgically
celebrated same-sex covenants. Thanks for listening.

 

[white_sheep]

Here are my thoughts:

One. Homosexuality is an unchangeable nature; it is not a lifestyle choice.Two. All people are created in the image of God. The homosexuality of gays and lesbians,
created by God, is good and not evil.Three. The homosexual is just as normal a person as a heterosexual and should not be thought of in sexual terms.Four. Several passages in the Bible speak of same-gender sex. In every instance, the Bible is talking about heterosexuals who, filled with lust, have become sex perverts. The
Bible says nothing about innate homosexuality as we know it today or about people who
are homosexuals. Five. The burden imposed on homosexuals by society is a great evil. We should standin revulsion against, and do all we can to oppose, the prejudice, the hatreds, and the condemnation of a society that make the homosexual’s life so difficult.SIx. It is not only unrealistic to expect homosexuals to live without sex, but also it is psychologically harmful to them for them to do so. Seven… As in society, gays and lesbians should be accepted and affirmed in our churchesand given any opportunity for service, including ordination, that others have. And here is an interest fact: John Boswell… has discovered that, whereas the church did not declare heterosexual marriage to be a sacrament until 1215 C.E.,

This is incorrect.

one of the Vatican Library’s earliest Greek liturgical documents is a marriage ceremony for two persons of the same sex.

Doesn’t exist.

The document dates to the fourth century, if not earlier. In other words, nine centuries before
heterosexual marriage was declared a sacrament,

Again, this is untrue.

the church liturgically
celebrated same-sex covenants. Thanks for listening.

Nope, never happened. Thanks for listening.

 

[Hadrianus]

Here are my thoughts:

One. Homosexuality is an unchangeable nature; it is not a lifestyle choice.Two. All people are created in the image of God. The homosexuality of gays and lesbians,
created by God, is good and not evil.Three. The homosexual is just as normal a person as a heterosexual and should not be thought of in sexual terms.Four. Several passages in the Bible speak of same-gender sex. In every instance, the Bible is talking about heterosexuals who, filled with lust, have become sex perverts. The
Bible says nothing about innate homosexuality as we know it today or about people who
are homosexuals. Five. The burden imposed on homosexuals by society is a great evil. We should standin revulsion against, and do all we can to oppose, the prejudice, the hatreds, and the condemnation of a society that make the homosexual’s life so difficult.SIx. It is not only unrealistic to expect homosexuals to live without sex, but also it is psychologically harmful to them for them to do so. Seven… As in society, gays and lesbians should be accepted and affirmed in our churchesand given any opportunity for service, including ordination, that others have. And here is an interest fact: John Boswell… has discovered that, whereas the church did not declare heterosexual marriage to be a sacrament until 1215 C.E., one of the Vatican Library’s earliest Greek liturgical documents is a marriage ceremony for two persons of the same sex. The document dates to the fourth century, if not earlier. In other words, nine centuries before
heterosexual marriage was declared a sacrament, the church liturgically
celebrated same-sex covenants. Thanks for listening.

This raises a point which occurs frequently in this debate and is misunderstood by both sides of it. From the theological perspective human beings whether homosexual, heterosexual, or whatever-sexual, are not born “good” in an absolute sense. The soul insofar as it is created by God is purely good, but it is immediately subject to sin by virtue of its incarnation in the body which is a product of human procreation and through which the original sin of the human race is transmitted. The result is that human beings come into this world already damaged and incapable without the aid of divine grace of achieving the supernatural virtue necessary for their own eternal salvation. This is true of absolutely everyone. And no one can reach the beatific vision by the strength of their own human nature alone unaided by God’s grace.

The issue thus is not whether someone is born gay or straight but rather how they conform themselves to God’s will in this life, and in how they correpond to the actual graces given by God to all. From the Catholic perspective any discussion of human sexuality which does not begin with this fundamental premise is simply a waste of time.

Jumping onwards to John Boswell’s work “Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe.” It is important to remember that his own conclusions were tentative, and he admitted that it was impossible to prove from the evidence that the unions in question were of an actively sexual nature. It is a fascinating work of scholarship in its own right and his early deathwas a great loss to the academic world. Nonetheless it should not to be taken as proving anything.

 

[bluelake]

We don´t know. Science does not know either. Only God knows.

God bless,

The bible is clear on this sin.
Rom.1:26-32 God calls this lifestyle unnatural, depraved, indecent,
and perversion.
If you want to read the entire passage listed, it lists other sins as well.
1Cor.6:9, Lev.18:22

bluelake

 

[bluelake]

We don´t know. Science does not know either. Only God knows.

God bless,

God refers to this lifestyle as ‘sin’ along with many other sins.
God gives us ‘choice’ and with this gift, we alone are responsible for the choices we make.
The Bible lists many sins along with the Ten Commandments.
Walking with the Lord isn’t easy, is it?

God bless,
bluelake

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Here are my thoughts:

One. Homosexuality is an unchangeable nature; it is not a lifestyle choice.Two. All people are created in the image of God. The homosexuality of gays and lesbians,
created by God, is good and not evil.Three. The homosexual is just as normal a person as a heterosexual and should not be thought of in sexual terms.Four. Several passages in the Bible speak of same-gender sex. In every instance, the Bible is talking about heterosexuals who, filled with lust, have become sex perverts. The
Bible says nothing about innate homosexuality as we know it today or about people who
are homosexuals. Five. The burden imposed on homosexuals by society is a great evil. We should standin revulsion against, and do all we can to oppose, the prejudice, the hatreds, and the condemnation of a society that make the homosexual’s life so difficult.SIx. It is not only unrealistic to expect homosexuals to live without sex, but also it is psychologically harmful to them for them to do so. Seven… As in society, gays and lesbians should be accepted and affirmed in our churchesand given any opportunity for service, including ordination, that others have. And here is an interest fact: John Boswell… has discovered that, whereas the church did not declare heterosexual marriage to be a sacrament until 1215 C.E., one of the Vatican Library’s earliest Greek liturgical documents is a marriage ceremony for two persons of the same sex. The document dates to the fourth century, if not earlier. In other words, nine centuries before
heterosexual marriage was declared a sacrament, the church liturgically
celebrated same-sex covenants. Thanks for listening.

A lot of what you posted (your very first post in this forum) is simply not true and/or clearly against Church teaching.

You even mention John Boswell, who is known for gay advocacy “scholarship” and historical revisionism. You must be referring to his book Same Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe, the title which a subsequent poster mentioned. Here is a review of said book that you should read.

You and some others may be fascinated by his controversial books (there were two on Christianity and homosexuality) which were attempts to reconcile his active homosexual life and being a Catholic. I think his life was one sadly lived, sadly ended, at the young age of 47 years in 1994.
,

 

[bluelake]

Are homosexuals born with this disorder? I have never heard a definitive answer on this subject. I believe this behavior is not learned, but if it happens at birth, why would God place such a heavy cross on any human being he created?

Are thieves and murderers, gossips ,born with these disorders?
Of course not. These are all chosen lifestyles that some chose to follow.
Its called SIN!

bluelake

 

[bluelake]

A lot of what you posted (your very first post in this forum) is simply not true and/or clearly against Church teaching.

You even mention John Boswell, who is known for gay advocacy “scholarship” and historical revisionism. You must be referring to his book Same Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe, the title which a subsequent poster mentioned. Here is a review of said book that you should read.

You and some others may be fascinated by his controversial books (there were two on Christianity and homosexuality) which were attempts to reconcile his active homosexual life and being a Catholic. I think his life was one sadly lived, sadly ended, at the young age of 47 years in 1994.
,

God calls this lifestyle ‘perversion.’ Rom.1:24-32’

Pick up yur cross and follow me, saith the Lord.

bluelake

 

[larkin31]

This thread, begun as a question about genetics and biology, has turned into an opportunity to smear gays with no charity of spirit. It should be closed.

 

[Adam1986]

Are thieves and murderers, gossips ,born with these disorders?
Of course not. These are all chosen lifestyles that some chose to follow.
Its called SIN!

bluelake

You’re actually completely wrong on this one.

I WAS BORN GAY.

Just like everyone else who’s gay is born that way. God made me this way and He makes no mistakes.

I did not learn this orientation.

I knew I was gay before I knew what gay was. I knew I was gay before the age of reason. So how can it be a sin if I was to young sin?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

From Catholic Answers Tract on Homosexuality
…
“I Was Born This Way”

Many homosexuals argue that they have not chosen their condition, but that they were born that way, making homosexual behavior natural for them.

But because something was not chosen does not mean it was inborn. Some desires are acquired or strengthened by habituation and conditioning instead of by conscious choice. For example, no one chooses to be an alcoholic, but one can become habituated to alcohol. Just as one can acquire alcoholic desires (by repeatedly becoming intoxicated) without consciously choosing them, so one may acquire homosexual desires (by engaging in homosexual fantasies or behavior) without consciously choosing them.

Since sexual desire is subject to a high degree of cognitive conditioning in humans (there is no biological reason why we find certain scents, forms of dress, or forms of underwear sexually stimulating), it would be most unusual if homosexual desires were not subject to a similar degree of cognitive conditioning.

Even if there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality (and studies on this point are inconclusive), the behavior remains unnatural because homosexuality is still not part of the natural design of humanity. It does not make homosexual behavior acceptable; other behaviors are not rendered acceptable simply because there may be a genetic predisposition toward them.

For example, scientific studies suggest some people are born with a hereditary disposition to alcoholism, but no one would argue someone ought to fulfill these inborn urges by becoming an alcoholic. Alcoholism is not an acceptable “lifestyle” any more than homosexuality is.
…

 

[Elizabeth502]

You’re actually completely wrong on this one.

I WAS BORN GAY.

Just like everyone else who’s gay is born that way. God made me this way and He makes no mistakes.

I did not learn this orientation.

I knew I was gay before I knew what gay was. I knew I was gay before the age of reason. So how can it be a sin if I was to young sin?

Any secular psychologist who has studied sexuality without a bias understands full well that no one – heterosexual or homosexual – is “born” with “a sexuality.” Sexuality is fluid and complex, having a number of components: conscious, unconscious, cultural influences, biological factors, attraction, repulsion, response to attractions and lack thereof, styles of parenting, validation, rejection, and more. It is hardly static and there is zero evidence for it being inborn. By definition, sexuality develops. Not having a memory point of “when it started” or “before (or after) one is conscious of attraction” is no evidence of ‘determinism at birth.’ There is only an 11% correlation of homosexuality in identical twins studied, where the phenomenon has occurred.

Rather, people are often conscious of ‘feeling different’ – distinctly different, even – very early in childhood, or “as early as one can locate memory.” Difference =/= “gay.” Nonconformity and not fitting in can also be markers for eventual homosexuality, but they are not in themselves determinant of it or predictive of it.

Anything else is junk science and baseless rhetoric, no matter how popular in political spheres and social circles.