Are humans intricintly evil?

[kramerbaby]

Ok, so. My Mom got an email from one of our uncles (who is non-denominationaly and intent on spreading his viewpoint) which talks about humans being born corupt. here is a passage of the email-

I’m reminded of the first human family where out of jealousy, one brother kills the other without the influence of violent video games, the internet, television, or any other outside source (save for Satan, though Genesis doesn’t actually identify his presence here). What this tells us (and this is the biblical position) is that while the things of the world may have an influence on us, we as people are already corrupt coming into the world. In other words, the world doesn’t corrupts us, we’re actually corrupt by our very nature; because we’re human.

We are sure that this does not go along with catholic teachings. How can we refute his, and where can we find what the catholic church actually teaches on this subject. thanks!

 

[davidv]

Ok, so. My Mom got an email from one of our uncles (who is non-denominationaly and intent on spreading his viewpoint) which talks about humans being born corupt. here is a passage of the email-

We are sure that this does not go along with catholic teachings. How can we refute his, and where can we find what the catholic church actually teaches on this subject. thanks!

We don’t have to go any farther than Genesis:
31 God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
Gen 1:31 (NRSV)
“everything” included humans.

 

[steveandersen]

Are humans intricintly evil?

NO

 

[Dale_M]

We are called to be saints - which wouldn’t be possible if we were intrinsically evil.

 

[Durendin]

Are humans intricintly evil?

NO

Quite right, we have a choice.

 

[kramerbaby]

I know we are not evil, such a depressing way to view a wonderful creation of God, but how to repond to this?

 

[Darrel]

We as human beings are intricintly good. At the same time we are under the pressure of original sin. We were created good in the image and likeness of God.

Take a look at a baby. Does it bring us a warm feeling or does it hiss like a cobra and try to kill?

-D

 

[Loginus]

I think humans are merely stupid

They are swayed by good or evil mostly by w/e is perceived to be better to their survival. That is not to say there are not exceptions!

 

[Darrel]

I think humans are merely stupid

They are swayed by good or evil mostly by w/e is perceived to be better to their survival. That is not to say there are not exceptions!

hehe,

Then why do we do good and resist ‘instinct’? My instinct tells me to survive by 'any means’. Yet I have this knowledge of the idea that I should go beyond my insticts and love others. Some people sacrifice themselves for others. When watching Lions we see the males carry out infanticide without emotion. Yet we are different then all animals. The difference between us and all other living things on the planet is that we have the knowledge of good and evil. It’s the opposite of individual survival and contradicts natural selection.

-D

 

[Loginus]

hehe,

Then why do we do good and resist ‘instinct’? My instinct tells me to survive by 'any means’. Yet I have this knowledge of the idea that I should go beyond my insticts and love others. Some people sacrifice themselves for others. When watching Lions we see the males carry out infanticide without emotion. Yet we are different then all animals. The difference between us and all other living things on the planet is that we have the knowledge of good and evil. It’s the opposite of individual survival and contradicts natural selection.

-D

As I said, there are outliers to my hypothesis . I think morality is merely an extention of the will to survive. The reason why you dont go looting and having your way with ppl, is because you will be stopped either through arrest or being shot.

I think the effects of a fall of gov’t, where riots are rampant are indicative of people’s morality being ‘flexible’. In a no-gov’t situation, the immediate reprecussions are ignored because of the greater threat. Seeing everything around you being looted and fights on the street means that if you dont join, there is a chance youll get attacked/robbed/killed etc. Thereby ‘joining’ the herd you sub-consciencely think your survival is increases than if you stood out.

I think the reason religious ppl are more likely to be moral in a chaos situation is more often because their survival instinct has been curtailed to the notion that they will live a very unpleasant existance in an afterlife so they are less likely to mind fear of death.

A good analogy is if your arm is trapped under flaming wreakage. You will most likely cut off your own arm to avoid being consumed by flame.

Hope that made sense

 

[quasimodo]

If we are evil, intrinsicly evil, then so is God for we are made in his image and likeness. Sin has damaged us, that is image true. But if we are so damaged that we are completely evil, we could not say we are made in the Imago Dei.

Does the uncle say he is not made in the image and likeness of God?

 

[Darrel]

As I said, there are outliers to my hypothesis

.

There are a lot of outliers to your hypothesis. A percentage too high to dismiss. If it were a very small amount of people I would agree with you.

I think morality is merely an extention of the will to survive. The reason why you dont go looting and having your way with ppl, is because you will be stopped either through arrest or being shot.

The reason I will be arrested or be shot is because of morality. We don’t see laws in existence for any other creatures on Earth. Why do laws exist if not to design a system that centers around our morality? Thou shalt not kill, or lie, or steal, or cheat. Do these exist in the law? Yes they do. We even take Sunday off for the most part in our seven day week.

If you were correct we would be living in the Klingon empire. It would be legal to challenge people to a death match like in ancient Rome when we saw gladiators fighting. All of modern law in the free world is Christian or Judeo Christian based. It becomes obvious when we observe Islamic law. Like it or not, the common thread of morality and law shared by American or Canadian atheist is from Christs teachings.

I think the effects of a fall of gov’t, where riots are rampant are indicative of people’s morality being ‘flexible’. In a no-gov’t situation, the immediate reprecussions are ignored because of the greater threat. Seeing everything around you being looted and fights on the street means that if you dont join, there is a chance youll get attacked/robbed/killed etc.

People can carry out any level of good or any level of evil. We have the knowledge of both. We must choose. And plenty of people do not participate in riots when they see chaos happening. It’s a small percentage. The rest of the people will not participate and protect themselves from the YoYo’s that are freaking out if needed.

Thereby ‘joining’ the herd you sub-consciencely think your survival is increases than if you stood out.

If we are alpha predators then there is no herd according to science. As people who are intricintly good we want order restored and generaly want to escape from chaos.

I think the reason religious ppl are more likely to be moral in a chaos situation is more often because their survival instinct has been curtailed to the notion that they will live a very unpleasant existance in an afterlife so they are less likely to mind fear of death.

It is not just out of fear. It is out of obedience and faith. God is not a terrorist holding hell over my head. He is the example I should follow and worship. We base our morality on his morality and our laws on his laws.

A good analogy is if your arm is trapped under flaming wreakage. You will most likely cut off your own arm to avoid being consumed by flame.

A survival reaction like this can not be compaired to making a choice at all. Your heart rate goes up and you go into tunnel vision survival mode and panic. It’s almost in line with self defense. Choosing to participate in evil and chaos driven behavior is the act of an immoral or ignorant person by choice. Calculation and choice will leave your mind when that arm starts cooking under the wreackage and threat of death becomes clear. My hand got crushed in a machine years ago at a textile mill. I ripped it out of the machine and caused some more damage but saved my arm from being fed like the hand through some rolers. When this happened I can assure you it was automatic.

-D

 

[John_Henry]

Ok, so. My Mom got an email from one of our uncles (who is non-denominationaly and intent on spreading his viewpoint) which talks about humans being born corupt. here is a passage of the email-

We are sure that this does not go along with catholic teachings. How can we refute his, and where can we find what the catholic church actually teaches on this subject. thanks!

I was searching around and was unable to find much that might be of use. So I’ll take a stab. The whole thing seems to turn on exactly what he means by “corrupt”. The term seems to imply the thought that human beings are completely evil, or as your title suggests, “intrinsically evil”. And this, if it’s what he means, is not true. However, if he is really trying to emphasize that human beings are born so damaged (not evil) that they are not able to please God in their natural state, then you can surprise him and agree with him. After all, it is accepted Catholic teaching that “For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary” (Ott, 229).

At the fall, man forfeited supernatural grace, and thus is unable to be lifted out of sin, display genuine supernatural virtues, and please God in his natural state. This is why Cain slew Abel. Not because humans are totally corrupt, but because, in their natural state, they lack the grace to do good. In fact, for a demonstration of this, focus on Abel. He is focused on Cain. Genesis states that “the LORD had regard for Abel”, and Jesus refers to him as “righteous” (amongst many others; Mt 23:35). Can a corrupt person be “righteous”? Well, again, it depends on what you mean by “corrupt”.

I suspect that, deep down, he is less interested in whether you subscribe completely to his view of natural man, as he is in seeing whether you think a person can do good, please God, or be lifted out of sin without God’s grace. I.e. can a man be saved by his own works? Well, the Catholic answer is a hearty “no”. So he doesn’t need to get all uptight.

 

[wcknight]

Humans are inherently sinful but NOT inherently evil. There is a huge distinction.