Are Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science actually Christian?

[Pythons]

If the Mormons adopted the Baptism Formula of the SDA’s would there be anyone here…
…That would identify the Mormons as a Christian Church - given their teachings?

 

[spedteacherita]

I have heard views from both sides, that they either are or are not. Now I ask this because ironically, some Protestant Christians claim that Catholics are not really Christian. However, the notion that just because someone believes in Jesus does not make someone a Christian. I say this because even in Islam, Jesus is regarded as a major prophet. Do these groups meet the definition of Christianity or do their beliefs make it so they actually are not Christians? I know all of these groups self identify as Christian, but does someone actually have to believe in the trinity to be a Christian? Or does that alone make someone not? I just wanted opinions on this. I know people who are Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and they adamantly claim that they are in fact “true” Christians.

I lived in a community with a lot of SDAs and, yes, they are Christian. They hold to some dietary distinctions, honor and study EG White’s writings but their standard is the Bible. Any of White’s teachings are held up against the Bible and, anything that I read, does not contradict the salvation message of Jesus.

 

[spedteacherita]

What defines a Christian body is their baptism. If they don’t baptize as the Church defines it, their baptisms are not acceptable. They are quasi-Christian bodies in that they claim Christ, but they are not recognized as baptized members of Christ’s body.

This doesn’t mean they cannot be saved, but it does mean they would have to be baptized with a baptism the Church recognizes if they wanted to be reconciled to the Catholic Church.

Yes! And, again, I will state that the SDAs are Christian as they baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jerusha]

If the Mormons adopted the Baptism Formula of the SDA’s would there be anyone here…
…That would identify the Mormons as a Christian Church - given their teachings?

Mormons say the same baptismal formula, but they mean something different. They speak a different language. It is a lumpy multicolored ball of wax (syncresis), frequently warmed up under criticism and truth, and reshaped in response. Everyone sees a different ball of wax.

 

[ericc]

Putting a white label on a black cat doesn’t make it white. Likewise calling oneself Christian doesn’t make it so unless one has taken action to be one. For a start, baptism, so that one is grafted on to the Vine. Calling Lord Lord and not doing what he commands will not gain recognition from him also. Christian in form but not substance. Therefore, love him and obey his commandments. If you don’t, you can call yourself anything you want, assume whatever titles you think looks good on you.

Since salvation is through the Church, for those who through no fault of there own are invincibly ignorant, but are guided by their conscience, can be saved too. They will be Christians in substance though not in form.

For those who believe in another gospel, I doubt invincible ignorance can ever apply unless you have done reasonable diligence in determining the answer. How do you know you are a Christian? For starters, the term Christians first came into use in the church at Antioch Acts 11:26. See if your Church doctrines are similar to that one there.

 

[iepuras]

The LDS church has in recent years made efforts to mainstream themselves into American Christianity. They are trying to appear more and more Christian. It wasn’t that long ago when LDS leaders were proudly proclaiming that Mormons are not Christian. Even Gordon Hinckley, their previous prophet, publicly stated that they do not worship the same Jesus Christ that Christians do. Now many Mormons are saying “me too! I’m a Christian too!”. I guess that explains “Wear your cross to church day”.

mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wearyourcrosstochurch/

I wonder if it will be as successful as the wear your pants to church day that some women held a few years ago.

 

[Horton]

If the Mormons adopted the Baptism Formula of the SDA’s would there be anyone here…
…That would identify the Mormons as a Christian Church - given their teachings?

They do baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, & the Holy Ghost but…and this is a big but…they don’t view God as Christians do. The god the believe in was once a man and became god. They claim Jesus is the literal son and not God.

While they use the same verbiage Christians do, their meaning are far different.

Are they good people? Yes, most are good people. The same way I’m sure most JW & SDA people are good people, just not Christian by definition.

 

[Pythons]

You’ve just summarized my Beef with SDA’s…
…They Claim Jesus potentiality “could be” the Christ prior to His Death on the Cross.
…Then further claim had He sinned God would have eternally annihilated Him for violating His Law.

Ellen White, under the guise of prophetic utterance, claimed Christ was equally capable of Vise…
…And that heaven didn’t know if salvation would actually be realized OR Lucifer would win.
…Leaving ‘God’ to go sulk somewhere in a dark corner of the Universe.

I would say that the Mormons are just more OPEN & honest about what they really believe…

They do baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, & the Holy Ghost but…and this is a big but…they don’t view God as Christians do. The god the believe in was once a man and became god. They claim Jesus is the literal son and not God.

While they use the same verbiage Christians do, their meaning are far different.

Are they good people? Yes, most are good people. The same way I’m sure most JW & SDA people are good people, just not Christian by definition.

 

[spedteacherita]

They do baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, & the Holy Ghost but…and this is a big but…they don’t view God as Christians do. The god the believe in was once a man and became god. They claim Jesus is the literal son and not God.

While they use the same verbiage Christians do, their meaning are far different.

Are they good people? Yes, most are good people. The same way I’m sure most JW & SDA people are good people, just not Christian by definition.

Hi, Horton…

Do you have a reference for this information? I lived and studied with many SDAs and NEVER heard that they don’t recognize Jesus as God. I would be interested to find and read that particular information.

Thanks, and God bless!

 

[spedteacherita]

The LDS church holds beliefs that were held by early Christians, but have since been lost to Orthodox Christianity.

The belief that man (like Christ) can become like his Heavenly Father is taught in the Bible and was taught be early Christians.

Bible:
Acts 17:29 (KJV) -* Forasmuch then as we are the *offspring of God…
(Offspring grow up to be like their parents.)

Romans 8:17 (KJV) - And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
(As joint heirs with Christ we receive from Heavenly Father everything Jesus receives, including Jesus’ nature.)

2 Peter 1:4 (KJV) - *Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be *partakers of the divine nature

Early Christians

Irenaeus noted: “*We have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods.” *

Clement of Alexandria wrote: Knowing God, he will be made like God. . . . And that man becomes God, since God so wills

Cyprian wrote: What Christ is, we Christians shall be, if we imitate Christ.

The idea of spirit children is clearly Biblical.

John 9:1,2 (KJV) - And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
The disciples clearly believed that the man lived before he was born.

Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV) - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
God clearly interacted with Jeremiah prior to Jeremiah being born.

The LDS do not believe that that Jesus was conceived through sexual intercourse between God and Mary. We believe in the virgin birth of Jesus.

I hope this helps…

Just because Catholics and Protestants don’t follow everything in the Bible that I outlined above doesn’t mean they’re not Christians.

Lots of great info, but I need to know where these quotes come from - do you have references for them? Such as Irenaeus - what book? what section? I’d like to read these in context to what was begin discussed.

Sorry - retired teacher who loves references!

God bless!!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

So are you saying that sinners are no longer Christians? Aren’t we all sinners? As Lutherans say, we are all simultaneously both saint and sinner all the time (simul justus et peccator).

If I commit a sin and continue committing that particular sin - actively engaging in it without adhering to what Christ says about that particular sin - should I call myself a Christian even if I had been baptized? If I’m repentant I will want to follow Christ’s example and try to sin no more. Remember the woman who was caught in an adulterous act - when all her accusers left Christ said, “Go and sin no more.”

God bless,

Rita

 

[Pythons]

Spedteacherita,

“He (Jesus) was revealed to them as the Angel of Jehovah, the Captain of the Lord’s Host, Michael the Archangel”. ( text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=PP&lang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=761&QUERY=revealed+to+them+as+the+angel&resultId=1)

"We invite all TO COMPARE the Testimonies of the Holy Spirit THROUGH Mrs. W. with the Word of God. And in this we DO NOT INVITE YOU TO COMPARE THEM WITH YOUR CREED.That is quite another thing. The TRINITARIAN MAY COMPARE THEM WITH HIS CREED and because THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH IT, condemns them.
( page 4 of: docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18710613-V37-26__B.pdf#view=fit )

Of the many Beefs the SDA’s had with the Trinitarian Creed two are note worthy.

A) Ellen’s prophetic Ministry was militant in teaching that God the Father had a functional rectum ( along with Lucifer & Michael the archangels ).

B) It was absolutely VITAL that Christians believe that Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation.

I can appreciate the difficulty these teachings would bring to those unaware of the existence of them, however, they are indeed strongly reflected in the denominations teachings and in the prophetic utterances of Ellen White. It’s just that the novice is generally not exposed to them - these teachings are reserved for the more advanced levels within the denomination.

 

[spedteacherita]

Spedteacherita,

“He (Jesus) was revealed to them as the Angel of Jehovah, the Captain of the Lord’s Host, Michael the Archangel”. ( text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=PP&lang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=761&QUERY=revealed+to+them+as+the+angel&resultId=1)

"We invite all TO COMPARE the Testimonies of the Holy Spirit THROUGH Mrs. W. with the Word of God. And in this we DO NOT INVITE YOU TO COMPARE THEM WITH YOUR CREED.That is quite another thing. The TRINITARIAN MAY COMPARE THEM WITH HIS CREED and because THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH IT, condemns them.
( page 4 of: docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18710613-V37-26__B.pdf#view=fit )

Of the many Beefs the SDA’s had with the Trinitarian Creed two are note worthy.

A) Ellen’s prophetic Ministry was militant in teaching that God the Father had a functional rectum ( along with Lucifer & Michael the archangels ).

B) It was absolutely VITAL that Christians believe that Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation.

I can appreciate the difficulty these teachings would bring to those unaware however they are indeed strongly reflected in the denominations teachings and in the prophetic utterances of Ellen White.

Thank you, Pythons…I’ve also written to a well known Pastor from the community in which I lived for a long time. I am waiting for his answer about these things, too.

I appreciate your quick response to my question!!!

God bless!!

Rita

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank you for the enlightening information. Yet I believe that the baptism ceremony of the Seventh-Day Adventist religion is according to the Trinitarian formula and accepted by the Catholic Church as Christian, is it not? How can this be if its conception of Jesus is seriously flawed?

Like I said Seventh Day Adventism is more complicated and opinions within that denomination vary so some take Ellen White’s words as gospel truth revealed by God and others don’t. Thus their baptism is trinitarian and may well be accepted by Catholic bishops as valid even though their Christology can be very confused and confusing. I am not sure if there is an official statement from the Catholic Magisterium about SDA baptism but I would guess (and it is only my guess) that their baptism is accepted.

 

[Pythons]

Thank you, Pythons…I’ve also written to a well known Pastor from the community in which I lived for a long time. I am waiting for his answer about these things, too.

I appreciate your quick response to my question!!!

God bless!!

Rita

I’m going to predict that his response will be “I’ve never heard of that before” OR “we don’t teach that any longer” OR “the early SDA Church was anti-Trinitarian but eventually came to accept the Trinity”.

Should your answer include any of the above I have a metric ton of quotes that will dispel the answer…
…Possibly the easiest & quickest way to confirm what I’m saying is just to ask the individual.
“WAS it possible that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation & subsequently be eternally annihilated by God”?

He will answer in the affirmative. As MoreCoffee has said, this is a fairly large onion with MANY layers…
…It’s easier to just cut the onion in half and look at the center & base your questions off that.

Good luck.

 

[Horton]

Hi, Horton…

Do you have a reference for this information? I lived and studied with many SDAs and NEVER heard that they don’t recognize Jesus as God. I would be interested to find and read that particular information.

Thanks, and God bless!

Sorry I was speaking in reference to the LDS. I know very little, next to nothing really about SDA.

 

[Horton]

I would say that the Mormons are just more OPEN & honest about what they really believe…

They are beginning to be a little more open since many now can find the truth with easy access to internet.

Lots of great info, but I need to know where these quotes come from - do you have references for them? Such as Irenaeus - what book? what section? I’d like to read these in context to what was begin discussed.

Sorry - retired teacher who loves references!

God bless!!

Rita

Rita - The bible verses gazelam uses are taken out of context. In a previous post I added the rest of the verses to add the context. This is an often used trick by the LDS to “prove” a “truth” of their beliefs. I also added a link to put fuller context on the quotes of the ECF.

 

[Horton]

If I commit a sin and continue committing that particular sin - actively engaging in it without adhering to what Christ says about that particular sin - should I call myself a Christian even if I had been baptized? If I’m repentant I will want to follow Christ’s example and try to sin no more. Remember the woman who was caught in an adulterous act - when all her accusers left Christ said, “Go and sin no more.”

God bless,

Rita

We are all sinners depending on the mercy of our God who loves us beyond measure.

 

[Pythons]

They are beginning to be a little more open since many now can find the truth with easy access to internet.

Yes, I agree with you - time is our friend in helping them to see the Christian truth ( and theirs in understanding we are not lying to them about it ).

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Jws , Mormons , Christian scientists are not Christians , however , seventh day Adventists are Christian .