Are Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science actually Christian?

[gazelam]

I think a review of the earlier posts in this thread will answer that question for you. But to make it very simple for you, no, one does not have to wear a cross or crusifix to qualify as a Christian but Christians would not have a problem wearing one or the other. I happen to wear both all the time. The question I asked gazelam is why he wouldn’t if he wants us to believe the LDS are Christian.

Something tells me that if I were to wear a cross or crucifix and then asked whether you believed that I’m now a Christian, you would still say that I’m not.

 

[Stephen168]

The LDS church holds beliefs that were held by early Christians, but have since been lost to Orthodox Christianity.
The belief that man (like Christ) can become like his Heavenly Father is taught in the Bible and was taught be early Christians.

The early Church taught us God is uncreated. He created man (Adam and Eve) as sinless beings who had eternal life and able see God; they were gods. They sinned against God and brought death and sin upon mankind. God humbled himself and became man. Christ took away the sins of the world and overcame death. This gives mankind the opportunity to become gods just like Adam and Eve were gods; with eternal life we can see our creator, God.

The limit to deification (becoming gods) is God. God is uncreated and everything else is created. Part of the divine nature is eternal life. We will share/participate in God’s nature but we will never be God.

While “becoming a god” has always been a Christian belief, it is not what Mormons believe. Irenaeus tells us about the “eternal progression” of Christianity.
St. Irenaeus:

For the Uncreated is perfect, that is, God. Now it was necessary that man should in the first instance be created; and having been created, should receive growth; and having received growth, should be strengthened; and having been strengthened, should abound; and having abounded, should recover [from the disease of sin]; and having recovered, should be glorified; and being glorified, should see his Lord. For God is He who is yet to be seen, and the beholding of God is productive of immortality, but immortality renders one near unto God.

St. Athanasius tells us what Christians believe about God the creator.
St. Athanasius:

He said that God had made all things out of pre-existent and uncreated matter, just as the carpenter makes things only out of wood that already exists. But those who hold this view do not realize that to deny that God is Himself the Cause of matter is to impute limitation to Him, just as it is undoubtedly a limitation on the part of the carpenter that he can make nothing unless he has the wood. How could God be called Maker and Artificer if His ability to make depended on some other cause, namely on matter itself?

These are not the beliefs of Mormonism. Mormons believe in many Gods and none of them are THE creator. Polytheism and the rejection of the Trinity takes Mormonism outside of Christianity.

 

[Pythons]

Something tells me that if I were to wear a cross or crucifix and then asked whether you believed that I’m now a Christian, you would still say that I’m not.

I’ve known many excellent & honorable Mormons gazelam…
…Please don’t take our critical view of the theology of the Mormon Church.
…As a critical view of you and a person.

You, like the rest of us, are loved by God equally.

 

[iepuras]

Something tells me that if I were to wear a cross or crucifix and then asked whether you believed that I’m now a Christian, you would still say that I’m not.

Gazelam, I asked you a simple yes or no question.

iepuras:

So if Mormons are Christians, will you be wearing a cross on August 16, which has been dubbed “Wear your cross to church day”?

Why are you not willing to answer a simple yes or no question? Instead you bring up the Star of David and Moroni pins.

If you are going to throw red herring around, I would much rather you toss me some fresh redfish. But something tells me you are not a fisherman from Louisiana, which is most unfortunate as I love redfish.

 

[meltzerboy]

Gazelam, I asked you a simple yes or no question.

Why are you not willing to answer a simple yes or no question? Instead you bring up the Star of David and Moroni pins.

If you are going to throw red herring around, I would much rather you toss me some fresh redfish. But something tells me you are not a fisherman from Louisiana, which is most unfortunate as I love redfish.

I love red salmon but I don’t believe I’ve ever tasted northern red snapper. Please save me some for my next visit to Louisiana.

 

[iepuras]

I love red salmon but I don’t believe I’ve ever tasted northern red snapper. Please save me some for my next visit to Louisiana.

Red salmon is quite tasty! Red snapper is also yummy. A fish that is locally called redfish (as opposed to red snapper) and is popular along the Gulf Coast is the red drum.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_drum

Why throw red herring around when there is red salmon, red snapper and redfish?!

I will definitely save you some redfish on your next visit to Louisiana or Houston!

 

[kimg901]

JW? No. SDA? Not sure what they teach so I cant say anything. Lds? No.
Reasons?

1. They are taught that God was a created being. He has a father and his father has a father and so on.
2. God and Mary had relations in order to create Jesus.
3. Believe in multiple gods. (see reason 1)
4. Believe in different levels of heaven. (No biblical references)
   There are many other things that are taught or are doctrine (which is said is opinion if it doesn’t fit in todays society) that have no basis in scripture. It was all made up.

 

[Saint_Frank]

To answer the OP:

No. They do not accept the Nicene Creed and/or the Trinity. If we cannot even agree that God is One God in Three Persons, we cannot possibility be members of the same religion, let alone all the other doctrinal differences.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

So if Mormons are Christians, will you be wearing a cross on August 16, which has been dubbed “Wear your cross to church day”?

You do realize, don’t you, that Mormons don’t showcase the cross, either in their sanctuaries or as a piece of jewelry.

I imagine other denominations have the same tradition, especially ones with direct lines to the Puritans.

 

[iepuras]

You do realize, don’t you, that Mormons don’t showcase the cross, either in their sanctuaries or as a piece of jewelry.

I imagine other denominations have the same tradition, especially ones with direct lines to the Puritans.

Of course I do. I was born and raised Mormon. They have their own symbols that they wear as jewelry such as the angel Moroni or the CTR logo. I have also been inside many of the LDS temples and even worked as an ordinance worker in one of the temples for a couple of years. Trust me, I know.

I also understand the differences in the teachings on the nature of God which makes the LDS church not Christian even though many Mormons do not clearly understand this. Admittedly, when I was LDS, I did not understand the distinction between Christian and LDS beliefs on the nature of God and that these distinctions make them entirely different religions. I sort of understood it when I was LDS but since I left Mormonism and studied Christianity, I understand the distinction quite clearly.

I also experienced the underlying anti-Catholicism that seeps through LDS beliefs. I am on the young end of Generation X so the anti-Catholicism I experienced was far more subtle than in my parent’s generation, which was quite explicit. My conversion to Catholicism was a far greater blow to my parents than leaving the LDS church in and of itself.

It is Mormons who are trying to be considered a part of mainstream Christianity, and a group of them are pushing a “wear your cross to church day” as a part of those efforts.

mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wearyourcrosstochurch/

 

[Miriam1947]

I can’t think of a single scholar who doesn’t consider Islam to be one of the three Abrahamic Religions. It’s pretty standard. Islam comes from Abraham through Hagar. And of course all three believe in the one, monotheistic God. We are all cousins.

I thought Islam came from Gabriel through Mohammed.

 

[jas84173]

Yes but the in Islamic belief they are the descendants of the Ishmaelite’s, who you find in the Old Testament. They stem from when Abraham let Ishmael and Hagar go by Gods command and started his own kingdom, which is in Arabia. Muhammad is according to belief in Islam, a direct descendant of Ishmael.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you for the enlightening information. Yet I believe that the baptism ceremony of the Seventh-Day Adventist religion is according to the Trinitarian formula and accepted by the Catholic Church as Christian, is it not? How can this be if its conception of Jesus is seriously flawed?

The decisive legislation on this matter was promulgated at the Second Ecumenical Council (A.D. 381) in its 7th Canon: “Those heretics who come over to Orthodoxy and to the society of those who are saved we receive according to the prescribed rite and custom: we receive Arians, Macedonians, Novatianists who call themselves ‘pure and better,’ Quatrodecimans, otherwise known as Tetradites, as well as Appolinarians on condition that they offer libelli (i.e., recantations in writing) and anathematize every heresy that does not hold the same beliefs as the holy, catholic and apostolic Church of God, and then they should be marked with the seal, that is, anointed with chrism on the forehead, eyes, nostrils, mouth and ears. And as they are marked with the seal, we say, ‘seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit.’ As for Eunomians, however, who are baptized with a single immersion, Montanists, who are called Phrygians, and the Sabellians, who teach that Father and Son are the same person, and who commit other abominable things, and [those belonging to] any other heresies - for there are many of them here, especially among the people coming from the country of the Galatians, - all of them that want to adhere to Orthodoxy we are willing to accept as Greeks *. Accordingly, on the first day we make them Christians; on the second day, catechumens; then, on the third day, we exorcise them with the act of blowing thrice into their face and into their ears; and thus we do catechize them, and we make them tarry a while in the church and listen the Scriptures; and then we baptize them.”

In this way the Holy Church made the rules: by what order to receive those who come into Orthodoxy from heresy. Those who have a correct baptism are received without re-baptism. Those who do not have baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity - are received by way of Baptism. It must be noted that the Arians and Macedonians held to a wrong teaching about the Persons of the Holy Trinity, but the actual faith in the Holy Trinity, in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, was there, and this was sufficient, in the opinion of the holy Church for recognizing the validity (sufficiency) of their baptism.

• The same goes for SDA today.

In addition, the OP questions:

• LDS are baptized with a Trinitarian formula, but lack an actual faith in the Holy Trinity. Rather naming three Gods, in which they believe, with familiar Christian names. But holding to a faith that these three are among many gods, including a goddess mother, and one day themselves as among this group of gods.
  -Christian Scientists don’t have a baptismal rite. They view baptism as a form of daily purification.*

 

[meltzerboy]

The decisive legislation on this matter was promulgated at the Second Ecumenical Council (A.D. 381) in its 7th Canon: “Those heretics who come over to Orthodoxy and to the society of those who are saved we receive according to the prescribed rite and custom: we receive Arians, Macedonians, Novatianists who call themselves ‘pure and better,’ Quatrodecimans, otherwise known as Tetradites, as well as Appolinarians on condition that they offer libelli (i.e., recantations in writing) and anathematize every heresy that does not hold the same beliefs as the holy, catholic and apostolic Church of God, and then they should be marked with the seal, that is, anointed with chrism on the forehead, eyes, nostrils, mouth and ears. And as they are marked with the seal, we say, ‘seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit.’ As for Eunomians, however, who are baptized with a single immersion, Montanists, who are called Phrygians, and the Sabellians, who teach that Father and Son are the same person, and who commit other abominable things, and [those belonging to] any other heresies - for there are many of them here, especially among the people coming from the country of the Galatians, - all of them that want to adhere to Orthodoxy we are willing to accept as Greeks *. Accordingly, on the first day we make them Christians; on the second day, catechumens; then, on the third day, we exorcise them with the act of blowing thrice into their face and into their ears; and thus we do catechize them, and we make them tarry a while in the church and listen the Scriptures; and then we baptize them.”

In this way the Holy Church made the rules: by what order to receive those who come into Orthodoxy from heresy. Those who have a correct baptism are received without re-baptism. Those who do not have baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity - are received by way of Baptism. It must be noted that the Arians and Macedonians held to a wrong teaching about the Persons of the Holy Trinity, but the actual faith in the Holy Trinity, in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, was there, and this was sufficient, in the opinion of the holy Church for recognizing the validity (sufficiency) of their baptism.

• The same goes for SDA today.

In addition, the OP questions:

• LDS are baptized with a Trinitarian formula, but lack an actual faith in the Holy Trinity. Rather naming three Gods, in which they believe, with familiar Christian names. But holding to a faith that these three are among many gods, including a goddess mother, and one day themselves as among this group of gods.
  -Christian Scientists don’t have a baptismal rite. They view baptism as a form of daily purification.*

And I suppose the same distinction applies to Oneness Pentecostals as opposed to Pentecostals who are Trinitarian? Thanks for the information.

 

[JustaServant]

To answer the OP:

No. They do not accept the Nicene Creed and/or the Trinity. If we cannot even agree that God is One God in Three Persons, we cannot possibility be members of the same religion, let alone all the other doctrinal differences.

Not arguing, just trying to stretch the question.
How much does an individual Christian need to “know” in order to be “right”?

 

[Jerusha]

Not arguing, just trying to stretch the question.
How much does an individual Christian need to “know” in order to be “right”?

Divergence from traditional Christian beliefs is a continuum. God is the ultimate judge. When we label, we divide.

Yes, Mormonism is way out on that continuum. But some individuals are much closer. Who, exactly, we don’t know, because some have a tendency to lie.

Oneness Pentecostals are much closer, except they are generally very anti-Catholic. So, technically, they are not Christian. As individuals, some are much closer.

 

[yellowbird]

As a former JW, I can testify that I at that time I was NOT a Christian. I was a follower of Jehovah - an invention on the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Jesus was not God … He was a god (small g ) - but not the One True God. Jesus was a good example for us to follow and sort of a supporting character - but Jehovah was the lead for sure. I knew what Jehovah thought about everything - thanks to his mouthpiece which is the Society’s Governing Body. You name it - and Jehovah has an opinion. It changes over time, and often changes back… many predictions & professions are made - all of which fail to happen, but that doesn’t deter the JWs who are brainwashed into believing their only hope is the Watchtower. It’s so sad.

JWs are nice, sincere people but they are not Christians. They need our prayers.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

I know only a little bit about Mormons (Latter Day Saints) but I do know about Jehovah’s witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists so I will answer on the two that I know something about and leave the other alone because I am not really qualified to answer about them.

Jehovah’s witnesses cannot subscribe to the Nicene Creed because they teach that the Lord Jesus Christ is a creature who is not God Almighty but only a created god - the archangel Michael - who is Jehovah’s first creation and the one through whom Jehovah created all other things but who is himself a creature who was created in the beginning. Jehovah’s witnesses also teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force, the ‘active force of Jehovah God’ and thus not a person nor God but the power of God through which Jehovah accomplishes his will. These two articles of doctrine in the teaching of Jehovah’s witnesses are so seriously heterodox that one cannot in good conscience call their religion Christian any more than one can call Judaism or Islam Christian. That the members of Jehovah’s witnesses call themselves Christians is somewhat irrelevant because adopting the name ‘christian’ when one’s religious teachings contradict the Nicene Creed and all the other ancient Creeds of the Church is mere nominalism rather than christianity.

Seventh Day Adventists are a far more complex group because their doctrine is in line with most of the Nicene Creed insofar as they accept Jesus as God Almighty and they teach that the Holy Spirit is a person and is God. Yet they also teach that Jesus is the archangel Michael and there is rather a lot of confusion evident in their doctrine of the incarnation because they have in their founding teacher’s writings (Mrs Ellen White) views about the human nature of the Lord Jesus Christ being a fallen human nature. There is also some confusion about the role of the ten commandments and the way to salvation; specifically, observance of the seventh day as a Sabbath to the Lord is a requirement in their religion and Sunday is explicitly excoriated as a wicked substitute imposed on Christendom by emperor Constantine and wicked Popes. In fact Seventh Day Adventism has historically been extremely anti-Catholic which is problematic in itself and coupled with the other strange revelations in Ellen White’s allegedly inspired writings leaves one wondering how the religion can be christian. But it is probably well to err on the side of charity when discussing these matters with members of the SDA denomination. Individuals vary and Seventh Day Adventism has quite a broad range of beliefs among its membership.

I will respond to the comment on SDAs. I am a new member of this group, a SDA and clergy. I say this in a spirit of openness

The statement that we are a complex group, is correct. WE are. And, sometimes that is our own fault.

We are Trinitarian, and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We teach and believe that all three are fully God.

Yes, we have a thinking that Michael is actually Christ. But, as part of that thinking we would also then believe that Michael was not a created being, Rather than thinking that Michael is the head angel, we would think that Christ, as God, is head over the created angels. Are we wrong? Perhaps. But, keep in mind that our thinking on the subject does
constitute thinking that Christ was simply a glorified angel and a crated being.

Yes, we have doctrinal differences with Catholic teaching and practice. Hopefully that does not translate into personal vendettas against Catholic members.

We look to the Bible, as understood by many Protestants to govern doctrinal beliefs and practice. We do not place Ellen G. White and her writings in the canon of Scripture. While we do not hold her to be the source of our doctrinal beliefs, we do believe that God used her in guiding our denomination in its developing days.

We do not believe that all SDA members will be saved. We do not believe that only SDA members will be saved. l We do believe that those saved will include Catholics.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Yes, Seventh Day Adventism is very confusing.

I have noticed that there are anonymous literature drops by SDAs in my city (Perth in Australia) and that the literature does not identify what denomination it is associated with. When the literature is authored by Ellen White her name doesn’t appear in any obvious place. It leaves me wondering why they are so careful to hide their identity. It may be innocent - perhaps out of fear of discovery and persecution because their theology teaches them to expect Sunday observers to persecute Saturday observing people - but it does leave one wondering doesn’t it?

Jehovah’s witnesses are normally quite open about who they are and what they are doing when they knock at your door.

Reference to Seventh-day Adventists I wish that I could say that this has never been done. I have a problem with it. But, I have to believe that it has been done. I am sorry.
The reality is that not every member of my faith represents it as I would wish that it had been represented.

 

[HungerNThirst4R]

When you say “fourth” I suppose you are including Muslims as the third. But I think that is a mistaken use of the word. Historically, the Christian Church came into being as a splinter group within Judaism. That is why the term “Abrahamic” can meaningfully cover both Judaism and Christianity. But the origin of Islam, historically, is totally independent. It is not “Abrahamic” in any meaningful sense of the term. As applied to Islam, it’s really no more than a courtesy title.

Incorrect, all three are Abrahamic religions because they all claim the same father in faith, Abraham.