Are Jews saved because they are God's chosen people?

[Step_Down]

I know Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6). The “no one” He referred to includes Jews and Gentiles. But Judaism does not believe that man, by his nature, is evil or sinful and therefore believes that man has no need to be “saved” from an eternal damnation. I have always wondered about this and thanks in advance for your replies.

remaining in HIS peace

steppy

 

[Lea101]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

Apparently this is what the catechism says

 

[Brendan]

The “no one” He referred to includes Jews and Gentiles. But Judaism does not believe that man, by his nature, is evil or sinful

As an FYI, Catholicism does not believe that man is evil or sinful by nature. We get that from the same place Judaism does, Genesis ( God created and it was good) and that we are created in the likeness and image of God.

Judaism shares a belief that while we are good by nature, our nature is damaged and the damage inclines us to sin. But that is distinct from having a sinful nature.

As to the rest, I will leave that up to others.

 

[Garyjohn2]

Many Jews did believe in Jesus. They were the first Christians. In that sense, Christianity is Judaism…its extension to the preset time, and it’s fulfillment. The Church is the new Israel. We are the chosen people.

What happened to Jews who refused to follow Moses, who did not go to the promised land? Are they still Jews? Are they still a part of the “people?” However you answer that is the same as the Jews who did not accept or follow Jesus.

I don’t know the exact answer to your question, but I’m just providing this info to put it in a new context, with food for thought.

 

[john81]

As an FYI, Catholicism does not believe that man is evil or sinful by nature. We get that from the same place Judaism does, Genesis ( God created and it was good) and that we are created in the likeness and image of God.

Judaism shares a belief that while we are good by nature, our nature is damaged and the damage inclines us to sin. But that is distinct from having a sinful nature.

As to the rest, I will leave that up to others.

What God created is good, but we are born in the evil state of original sin. This state of original sin changed the nature of man (hence we now have physical sufferings and eventually die). We were meant to all be born in a perfect nature like Adam, live forever, no temptations or sin, but that’s obviously not the case since Adam. So I think you may be wrong saying we are good by “nature”, since we inherit that sinful nature from Adam.

 

[john81]

I know Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6). The “no one” He referred to includes Jews and Gentiles. But Judaism does not believe that man, by his nature, is evil or sinful and therefore believes that man has no need to be “saved” from an eternal damnation. I have always wondered about this and thanks in advance for your replies.

remaining in HIS peace

steppy

You have it correct, you must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. I think that’s quoted in scripture many, many times. Jews and Muslims who reject Jesus reject the true God because there is no Holy Trinity without Jesus. You can’t believe in an Allah/Yahweh without three persons, and believe in the same God as the Triune God.

Some will probably say, “then what about the Old Testament Jews, were they not saved?”. Yes they were, because they believed in the coming of Jesus Christ, and therefore believed in Christ thorough the prophets.

 

[meltzerboy]

I know Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6). The “no one” He referred to includes Jews and Gentiles. But Judaism does not believe that man, by his nature, is evil or sinful and therefore believes that man has no need to be “saved” from an eternal damnation. I have always wondered about this and thanks in advance for your replies.

remaining in HIS peace

steppy

You are correct that Jews do not believe that humanity has a sinful nature, nor do they believe that the mission of the Messiah is to save humanity from eternal damnation. Neither does Judaism believe that its own religion is the only way in which people can live a good, meaningful, purposeful life. The religion does not focus on the afterlife but rather on the present life and making it the best we can by means of behaving in a moral, just, compassionate way toward others and thus filling in the gaps of G-d’s creation. The emphasis is on the good we have the potential of doing rather than on the evil we may commit.

 

[meltzerboy]

What God created is good, but we are born in the evil state of original sin. This state of original sin changed the nature of man (hence we now have physical sufferings and eventually die). We were meant to all be born in a perfect nature like Adam, live forever, no temptations or sin, but that’s obviously not the case since Adam. So I think you may be wrong saying we are good by “nature”, since we inherit that sinful nature from Adam.

Note that only when G-d created mankind did He call His creation “very good,” and not merely “good.” This is because only humans have the power of free will which they have the opportunity to use to change things for the better in their own lives and in the lives of others.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

I know Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6). The “no one” He referred to includes Jews and Gentiles. But Judaism does not believe that man, by his nature, is evil or sinful and therefore believes that man has no need to be “saved” from an eternal damnation. I have always wondered about this and thanks in advance for your replies.

remaining in HIS peace

steppy

As a Catholic of Jewish ancestry, I can attest that you are correct: Judaism does not have a doctrine of Original Sin, and as a consequence no theology that recognizes any need for salvation from sin, as if humanity is “damned” automatically without some sort of “economy of salvation” to take advantage of as exists in Catholicism.

However, major changes have occurred in the field of Catholic-Jewish relations. The Church recognizes that some of her previous historical views on the Jews played an indirect part in fomenting the European anti-Semitism that eventually lead to the Holocaust/Shoah under the Nazi regime. The amazing survival of the Jews as a people while their enemies of the Axis Powers were eliminated, and their subsequent return to the Promised Land gave the Church pause some 50 years ago to review its understanding of the place the Jews play in God’s plan of salvation.

On the anniversary of the release of the historic document Nostre Aetate, the Church released it’s latest views on this very matter. According to the latest in theology released in a document from the Vatican in December 2015:

From the Christian confession that there can be only one path to salvation, however, it does not in any way follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God. Such a claim would find no support in the soteriological understanding of Saint Paul, who in the Letter to the Romans not only gives expression to his conviction that there can be no breach in the history of salvation, but that salvation comes from the Jews (cf. also Jn 4:22)…From this it is self-evident that Paul in the Letter to the Romans definitively negates the question he himself has posed, whether God has repudiated his own people. Just as decisively he asserts: “For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29). That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery. It is therefore no accident that Paul’s soteriological reflections in Romans 9-11 on the irrevocable redemption of Israel against the background of the Christ-mystery culminate in a magnificent doxology: “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways” (Rom 11:33).–“The Gifts and Calling of God Are Irrevocable,” IV.36.

In other words, the Church understands that it cannot produce any doctrine beyond the revelation given to St. Paul. It remains a mystery, but at the same time it is impossible to conceive that the covenant people of Israel are not recipients of God’s saving efforts of redemption. How it works out is not a matter that has been revealed.

Are there two ways of salvation, one for Jews without Christ and one for the rest of the world with Christ? The same document answers “no.” There is only one salvation for all, however we cannot claim that God is somehow limited in his saving of humanity by denominational lines or even the lack of meeting some standard we feel must be met as a requisite. God is neither bound nor limited by the boundaries God sets for humans. As such one cannot be definitive on saying what God expects of his covenant people, the children of Abraham.

At the same time this document was released Orthodox rabbis from around the world presented their views that Jesus Christ is definitely one of the Jewish sages, and that Christianity cannot be viewed as if it were some sort of “accident” and not part of God’s providence for the redemption of the world.

 

[john81]

There is only one salvation for all, however we cannot claim that God is somehow limited in his saving of humanity by denominational lines or even the lack of meeting some standard we feel must be met as a requisite. God is neither bound nor limited by the boundaries God sets for humans.

You are correct, God is not bound by what “we feel must be met”. Christ is the one who set the guidelines “…No man comes to the Father, but by Me”. John 14:6. God set the standard, not us. We are the ones who have changed, not God. You must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, is that not why we worship him as our Savior?

 

[john81]

The Church recognizes that some of her previous historical views on the Jews played an indirect part in fomenting the European anti-Semitism that eventually lead to the Holocaust/Shoah under the Nazi regime.

I think this is a rather false statement. The Church is run by the Holy Spirit. Any anti-Semitism is from the sinful men in charge, not the Church itself. The Church has always taught against anti-Semitism. It was previously more zealous in it’s attempts to convert the Jews, and I think that is where some of the confusion comes saying the Catholic Church was anti-Jew. The Church only wanted all men converted to Christ, which is, and always has been, it’s mission. :knight1:

 

[CeelosDeznos]

I think this is a rather false statement. The Church is run by the Holy Spirit. Any anti-Semitism is from the sinful men in charge, not the Church itself. The Church has always taught against anti-Semitism. It was previously more zealous in it’s attempts to convert the Jews, and I think that is where some of the confusion comes saying the Catholic Church was anti-Jew. The Church only wanted all men converted to Christ, which is, and always has been, it’s mission. :knight1:

I did not say that the Church taught anti-Semitism.

The Church recognizes that ***some of her previous historical views on the Jews played an indirect part ***in fomenting the European anti-Semitism that eventually lead to the Holocaust/Shoah under the Nazi regime.

Nowhere did I state that the Church claimed to have taught anti-Semitic doctrine. There is a significant difference between views and actions that play an indirect part in creating anti-Semitism and the anti-Semitism and those who directly advance it.

Also, the Church is not a dichotomy, as if it exists as Magisterium and a separate but connected entity of her faithful. She is a composite of both. The Church is made up of her popes, her bishops, her saints, and yes, her sinners who sometimes do horrible, horrible things.

Some of what the Church has taught and allowed to be done has led to horrible sins against the Jews by her members. This has contributed to the breaks and scars that the Church is diligently looking to mend. You do not build bridges unless there are gaps than need to be crossed. The Church would not be engaged in dialogue with Jews if there was no need for these bridges:

In the past, the break between the Jewish people and the Church of Christ Jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete. In the light of the Scriptures, this should never have occurred. For a complete break between Church and Synagogue contradicts Sacred Scripture.–“The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible,” the Pontifical Biblical Commission.

 

[john81]

Nowhere did I state that the Church claimed to have taught anti-Semitic doctrine…Some of what the Church has taught and allowed to be done has led to horrible sins against the Jews by her members. This has contributed to the breaks and scars that the Church is diligently looking to mend. You do not build bridges unless there are gaps than need to be crossed. The Church would not be engaged in dialogue with Jews if there was no need for these bridges

So your saying the Church has not taught anti-Semitic doctrine, but some of what the Church has taught has led to sins against the Jews. Do you have examples? This seems to be a contradiction.

 

[StGerardMajella]

In other words, the Church understands that it cannot produce any doctrine beyond the revelation given to St. Paul. It remains a mystery, but at the same time it is impossible to conceive that the covenant people of Israel are not recipients of God’s saving efforts of redemption. How it works out is not a matter that has been revealed.

It has been revealed already. It’s described quite vividly as an allegory in the story of Joseph and his brothers (Genesis, Chapter 37 and thereafter). Then read what St. Paul states in the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans, Chapter 11, especially verse 25.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

So your saying the Church has not taught anti-Semitic doctrine, but some of what the Church has taught has led to sins against the Jews. Do you have examples? This seems to be a contradiction.

Yes, I have a very good example.

But before I get to that let us get one thing straight. It is incorrect to write: “You’re saying…”

I’m not saying this. The Church has. I don’t believe that my personal opinion can offer anything of value over the teaching of the Church on these matters. My statements are based on several documents from the Holy See and statements made by St. John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.

I assume that since you are challenging me on this issue that you drew a different conclusion from the documents and studies published by the Commission of the Holy See for Religious Relations with the Jews. Have you read and studied them all? Are your views in line with what is written therein? Can you verify that you are not speaking or have an opinion, stand, or notion in opposition to what the Holy See has herein published?

I am also a Hebrew Catholic, a Roman Catholic of Jewish ancestry. I have ancestors that were among the original church in Jerusalem up until 135 A.D./C.E., and the Church as well as the governments of Spain and Portugal have been active since 1996 in helping me learn that many of many ancestors were unjustly treated and persecuted during the Spanish Inquisition. I am ready in the next following posts to reveal my actual identity as I am somewhat of a public figure and have worked as an employee of the Church for several years as my identity plays a significant part in validating what I am about to say in reply.

So I think it important at this point to establish exactly what you know on this subject first, what you are basing things on, and why you feel the need to push the matter before we go further. What is your scope of study on all the Church has published on these matters, and is your thinking in full communion with this?

 

[CeelosDeznos]

It has been revealed already. It’s described quite vividly as an allegory in the story of Joseph and his brothers (Genesis, Chapter 37 and thereafter). Then read what St. Paul states in the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans, Chapter 11, especially verse 25.

You do know that I did not invent that statement. That was based on the section I quoted from this document from the Holy See’s own website. To repeat, this document states:

It does not in any way follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God. Such a claim would find no support in the soteriological understanding of Saint Paul, who in the Letter to the Romans not only gives expression to his conviction that there can be no breach in the history of salvation, but that salvation comes from the Jews.–“The Gifts and Calling of God are Irrevocable.”

That same document adds:

That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery. It is therefore no accident that Paul’s soteriological reflections in Romans 9-11 on the irrevocable redemption of Israel against the background of the Christ-mystery culminate in a magnificent doxology: “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways” (Rom 11:33). Bernard of Clairvaux (De cons. III/I,3) says that for the Jews “a determined point in time has been fixed which cannot be anticipated”.–“The Gifts and Calling of God are Irrevocable.”, italics added.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

I feel very privileged to engage in conversation with so many of you that have been part of this fine community of CAF, and I appreciate very much the kindness of those I meet here each and every day.

I do worry that many tend to mistake my comments for personal views or opinions or self-held convictions. I tend to be quite at issue with presenting my own views or interpretations, and I have endeavored not to offer up anything original in these statements. I know I am not perfect, and I am sure that some bias I am unaware of comes in from time to time. I can only resound the words of St. Paul who wrote: “I may not be conscious of anything against myself, yet that does not acquit me all the same.”–1 Corinthians 4:4.

I do, however, expect that people who engage me with questions about what I’ve written or challenge me to be at least as up-to-date on all the Church teaches regarding the subjects I’ve written about. I admit I am disappointed that many members of the Church have not even heard of these documents I have to point out regarding this subject on Jewish dialogue time and time again.

I was of the view that almost everyone at least here on CAF would be far greater examples of those who kept up with all the developments in the Church in comparison to what I’ve seen in person. And to some degree, I extend the benefit of the doubt that you are, perhaps even far more on top of things than I could ever hope to be.

But nothing of which I have written about here in my statements has happened hidden from the world. The last few documents from the Vatican on these matters came out to the public with much media attention, announced through various outlets and formats. The release of “The Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable” from the Holy See and the parallel release of the “Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity” were major, history-making events in the Church, and yet I behold people debating the same things as if these statements never happened. Some Catholics still raise issues that were dismissed with Nostre Aetate!

This I do not at all understand. I was of the belief that those around me who act and speak as if they know more about the Church and about the faith would not be lying. They deserve the benefit of the doubt. But the more and more I extend this courtesy, I am left more and more puzzled.

How is it that we as a Catholic community are not more up-to-date on matters? We live in a world where we know how to operate computers, iPads, smart phones, and the various apps these come with, which take considerable time to master and use yet we do not pay any attention to that which the Church publishes on the matters of world salvation, not even at least the most historic ones?

I am confused. I do not think of myself as so great. I have Parkinson’s disease and narcolepsy, and I struggle each day just to function. I literally have to fight my body for the ability to pray, and I do not have half the opportunities most people have, and yet all I get are nit-picking challenges to what I’ve written as if it was something new? As if I myself made these things up? Shouldn’t you be the master of things over me? I am nothing. How is it that so many who claim to have answers or at least to state that something doesn’t sound right in what I’ve written not be more on top of things?

I am certain that I must be missing something. I know that you have far greater love and faith than I could possibly muster, and I am sure you are far more educated in the faith than what it appears. I just don’t see how this can be happening, that these types of questions are still being asked and when one cites or quotes a document from the Holy See it gets unrecognized.

I am a poor and weak man of much inability. I do not understand.

 

[meltzerboy]

I feel very privileged to engage in conversation with so many of you that have been part of this fine community of CAF, and I appreciate very much the kindness of those I meet here each and every day.

I do worry that many tend to mistake my comments for personal views or opinions or self-held convictions. I tend to be quite at issue with presenting my own views or interpretations, and I have endeavored not to offer up anything original in these statements. I know I am not perfect, and I am sure that some bias I am unaware of comes in from time to time. I can only resound the words of St. Paul who wrote: “I may not be conscious of anything against myself, yet that does not acquit me all the same.”–1 Corinthians 4:4.

I do, however, expect that people who engage me with questions about what I’ve written or challenge me to be at least as up-to-date on all the Church teaches regarding the subjects I’ve written about. I admit I am disappointed that many members of the Church have not even heard of these documents I have to point out regarding this subject on Jewish dialogue time and time again.

I was of the view that almost everyone at least here on CAF would be far greater examples of those who kept up with all the developments in the Church in comparison to what I’ve seen in person. And to some degree, I extend the benefit of the doubt that you are, perhaps even far more on top of things than I could ever hope to be.

But nothing of which I have written about here in my statements has happened hidden from the world. The last few documents from the Vatican on these matters came out to the public with much media attention, announced through various outlets and formats. The release of “The Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable” from the Holy See and the parallel release of the “Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity” were major, history-making events in the Church, and yet I behold people debating the same things as if these statements never happened. Some Catholics still raise issues that were dismissed with Nostre Aetate!

This I do not at all understand. I was of the belief that those around me who act and speak as if they know more about the Church and about the faith would not be lying. They deserve the benefit of the doubt. But the more and more I extend this courtesy, I am left more and more puzzled.

How is it that we as a Catholic community are not more up-to-date on matters? We live in a world where we know how to operate computers, iPads, smart phones, and the various apps these come with, which take considerable time to master and use yet we do not pay any attention to that which the Church publishes on the matters of world salvation, not even at least the most historic ones?

I am confused. I do not think of myself as so great. I have Parkinson’s disease and narcolepsy, and I struggle each day just to function. I literally have to fight my body for the ability to pray, and I do not have half the opportunities most people have, and yet all I get are nit-picking challenges to what I’ve written as if it was something new? As if I myself made these things up? Shouldn’t you be the master of things over me? I am nothing. How is it that so many who claim to have answers or at least to state that something doesn’t sound right in what I’ve written not be more on top of things?

I am certain that I must be missing something. I know that you have far greater love and faith than I could possibly muster, and I am sure you are far more educated in the faith than what it appears. I just don’t see how this can be happening, that these types of questions are still being asked and when one cites or quotes a document from the Holy See it gets unrecognized.

I am a poor and weak man of much inability. I do not understand.

You appear very knowledgeable and wise to me. I think one of the answers to your state of puzzlement is revealed in something you have written, namely, the technology at our disposal today and our desire to master it. It is my hypothesis that technology has changed the cognitive processes of our youth and probably the thought patterns of older people as well. In other words, we no longer need to think through issues or discover new and possibly competing evidence as before by an effortful process of reflection; the technological devices do this for us at the push or click of a button. As a result, the speed of acquiring information is preferable to the slow pondering of ideas, and we are all the worse for it. This is not to say technology does not have its benefits as well; but this is fodder for a separate thread.

Thank you for your invaluable contributions.

 

[StGerardMajella]

You do know that I did not invent that statement.

The Church already knows the ending to the story. It is written in the Torah as allegory, and it is described quite clearly by St. Paul.

There is nothing new under the sun. This is not a mystery. There is no confusion.

In other words, the Church understands that it cannot produce any doctrine beyond the revelation given to St. Paul. It remains a mystery…How it works out is not a matter that has been revealed.

Nonsense. Read John’s Book of Revelation and its many commentaries. John lived long after St. Paul.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

The Church already knows the ending to the story. It is written in the Torah as allegory, and it is described quite clearly by St. Paul.

There is nothing new under the sun. This is not a mystery. There is no confusion.

Nonsense. Read John’s Book of Revelation and its many commentaries. John lived long after St. Paul.

The Church states in these documents I’ve cited that it agrees with St. Paul’s word that how God incorporates the Jews into the economy of salvation in Christ as it sees it is still “inscrutable…unsearchable.”–Romans 11:33.

Those who claim to be Catholic while calling its teachings nonsense are nothing but nonsense themselves, a poisonous snake, and the devil’s child. I pray that those who do such things repent, for it is one thing to claim the Church to be untrue and a very different thing to do the same while claiming to be Catholic.