are Jews saved without converting to catholicism?

[chimo]

Evangelical Christians all over the world are screaming bloody murder right now! lol

What for?

 

[praestat_fides]

What for?

For implying that Jews are somehow not as responsible as Christians are. They believe that it doesn’t matter. We all sin and are worthy of hell. If you don’t have the blood of Christ to cover your sins then you’re out of luck.

 

[chimo]

For implying that Jews are somehow not as responsible as Christians are. They believe that it doesn’t matter. We all sin and are worthy of hell. If you don’t have the blood of Christ to cover your sins then you’re out of luck.

This is the view of hard line Protestantism and is not the view of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. The responsibility I was referring to is what is taught to you. In the Orthodox and Catholic Churches the Sacramental life is an important tool to help us to live out the life that God wants us to. The Protestants and those of the Jewish Faith do not adhere to the Sacramental life. Since they do not have the Sacraments they are not responsible to them as those who are. I do not believe just because we sin we are all worthy of hell. That is not what the Catholic and Orthodox Churches teaches. You have to be in very grave sins to be in that state. A clarification of what sins are mortal and which ones are not (venial sins) must be more taught so that this harsh verdict or condemnation will not be the motivating factor of so many groups.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Praestat is correct in that salvation is only through Jesus, but Chimo’s idea is correct that we will not all be judged by an equal standard. And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

 

[fnr]

I am not sure what you mean by the statement “His anointing as messiah was at the hands of a woman in a leper town.” Who are you referring to?

The woman has no name in any of the gospels except John 12, which names her as Mary of Bethany. The relevant passages are: Mark 14:1-11 // Matthew 26:1-15, Luke 7:36-50, and John 12:1-11. In Matthew, Mark, and John, this anointing scene takes place in Bethany. In Luke, it is unclear where the anointing occurs.

The leper town in question is Bethany, which Mark and Matthew confirm as holding lepers. The Temple Scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran speaks of a place east of Jerusalem dedicated to the care of lepers, located outside the 3000 cubit (0.9 mile) circle around the temple within which no unclean thing shall be seen. According to John 11:18, Bethany was about “15 stades” (1.7 miles) from Jerusalem, this puts Bethany, a place where lepers are attested in the Gospels, in the same area the Dead Sea Scrolls describes as a place where lepers were cared for.

 

[chimo]

Praestat is correct in that salvation is only through Jesus, but Chimo’s idea is correct that we will not all be judged by an equal standard. And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Thank you for the words from the Gospel. I was looking for verses from the Bible to support my writings on the reality of Purgatory and these verses do seem to give credence toward a Purgatory discipline that many of us would need to justify our entrance into Heaven. The beaten with stripes alludes towards this discipline that many would need. The beaten of stripes seem to point to Purgatory. This does not mean one is beaten in Purgatory but the point is made by the Lord that many would need to be furthered discipline if they did not carry out the Lord’s will and they are not worthy of hell.

 

[Xuan]

Pope Francis has stated that the old covenant with the Jewish people has never been revoked. In his latest exhortation, the Pope did not state that the Jewish people should be converted?

So are Jews saved without converting to catholicism?

Hi RosslynV,

Perhaps this will help answer your question. It’s from the Catechism of Saint Pious X:

28 Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?
A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.
29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

Note that it mentions not only Baptism of Desire, but implicit Baptism of Desire. That means not necessarily knowing anything about the sacrement itself.

Pope John Paul II said this about people who practice other religions:
Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991, n. 29; L’Osservatore Romano English edition, 1 July 1991, p. III).

I hope this answers your question.

Xuan

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I don’t mean to sound ignorant, but I’ve looked at the promises in the Scriptures of the various Old Covenants and none of them promise salvation as far as I can see. I sincerely would appreciate if anyone could point me to the Scripture passage that reveals that the Old Covenant had promises of eternal salvation to the Israelites. I’ve seen OT references to salvation, but I do not see eternal salvation (living face to face with God in heaven) as one of the covenant promises. The Davidic Covenant does refer to resting with ancestors, but does not say that will take place in heaven. As an aside, I’ve heard that Jews to this day do not believe in going to heaven, but only Sheol. It is also my understanding that Jews do not believe in hell (as we understand it). I was once told by a Jew on this forum that his comeback to the question “are you saved?” was always “Saved from what?” If Jews themselves are not proclaiming that they are “saved” under the Old Covenant, why would we think that they are?

As far as I can see, the only promise of eternal salvation is under the New Covenant, hence, the Jews as well as every other person on the planet are only saved through Jesus Christ. But if there are Scriptures in the the OT that make promises of eternal salvation, I would appreciate someone posting them.

Covenant with Noah

“I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth” Gen 9:11

Covenant with Abraham

The LORD said to Abram: Go forth from your land, your relatives, and from your father’s house to a land that I will show you
I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. All the families of the earth will find blessing in you. Gen 12:1-3

Mosaic Covenant

“Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” Ex 19:5-6

Davidic Covenant

I will assign a place for my people Israel and I will plant them in it to dwell there; they will never again be disturbed, nor shall the wicked ever again oppress them, as they did at the beginning,and from the day when I appointed judges over my people Israel. I will give you rest from all your enemies. Moreover, the LORD also declares to you that the LORD will make a house for you: when your days have been completed and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring after you, sprung from your loins, and I will establish his kingdom.
He it is who shall build a house for my name, and I will establish his royal throne forever. 2 Sam 10-13

 

[Genesis315]

St. Paul’s letter to the Romans equates salvation in Christ to the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to Abraham and his heirs.

The idea that this is still valid for Jews means they are not definitively excluded from the possibility of salvation in Christ. If they no longer had access to the promises of Abraham, they could not have access to salvation in Christ. These promises were first extended to the Jews and then later extended to the Gentiles also when it was rejected by many Jews, but as St. Paul notes, this does not exclude the Jews from turning back to and partaking in those promises. Any who reject those promises and their fulfillment, whether Jew or Gentile, cannot be saved; but any who accept them, can be.

 

[ancailindeas]

We are definitely meant to evangelise Jews. Jews cannot be saved without conversion - nobody can. The old law will not save them. This is the teaching of the Church. All Jews, if they are not converted before death, will go hell.

This is about right. It is essential that the Jews come to know Christ. Their Judaism will not aid their salvation one iota. If they are to be saved, they are saved INSPITE OF Judaism not because of it. If they follow the natural law and stay away from mortal sin then there is a possibility of their being saved. However, it is hard to stay out of mortal sin - how can they know that their contrition in perfect ? They do not have any of the helps Catholics have. They do not have access to confession as Catholics do? Much of the Talmud is very corrupting to the mentality of the religious Jew. The Jews are God’s chosen of the Old Law. God gave them certain gifts as his former chosen people. God never takes away HIs gifts and they enjoy these gifts to this day HOWEVER the Catholic Church is the New Israel and surely God’s chosen people of the New Law are all those who adhere to the religion he founded. This religion is Christianity - Our Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Law. Judaism is now a dead religion. It is not my intention to offend Jews reading this post. My sincere wish is that you convert. But there is too much reticence on this issue. There is only ONE true religion - the rest are false. Those who stay in those religions make their salvation almost impossible. The Gods of the gentiles are devils - the gentiles are, today, all non-believers.

 

[Personanongrata]

We are definitely meant to evangelise Jews. Jews cannot be saved without conversion - nobody can. The old law will not save them. This is the teaching of the Church. All Jews, if they are not converted before death, will go hell.

Wrong…

 

[shelby_sun]

Wrong…

Agreed!!! The Church does not teach Jews are going to hell. Maybe that is just where they learned about their Catholic faith. Makes me wonder if he is a convert. I am a cradle catholic, going to 12 years of Catholic school, and have worked at a Catholic high school for 20 years and not one of the many, many priest I have known, ever taught the Jews were not going to be saved.

I don’t see why people care if the Jews are saved or not. They should be worrying about their own salvation and I don’t see damning people to hell helping them get there!

 

[ancailindeas]

Agreed!!! The Church does not teach Jews are going to hell. Maybe that is just where they learned about their Catholic faith. Makes me wonder if he is a convert. I am a cradle catholic, going to 12 years of Catholic school, and have worked at a Catholic high school for 20 years and not one of the many, many priest I have known, ever taught the Jews were not going to be saved.

I don’t see why people care if the Jews are saved or not. They should be worrying about their own salvation and I don’t see damning people to hell helping them get there!

e

The Church teaches that no one comes to the Father except through HIs Son, Jesus Christ. Nobody, neither Catholic faithful nor the Church, damns Jews. But Judaism will not save the Jew. And it is the wish of Christ and His Church that the Jews are saved. They too are precious to him. It is normal that Catholics would worry about non- Catholics souls and desire them to convert. Its normal. It is a sign of charity. It is certainly not condescension - none of us know whether we shall be saved either - we can lose grace at any time but we can have holy hope. There is only one faith - it does not depend where you learned it - but rather whether you learned it at all. Not every priest in the Church preaches sound doctrine - I wish they did but this is reality. There is no triumphalism here. This desire for Jewish conversion on the side of Catholics is a holy thing.

 

[penetentman]

the difference between – the jews religion and the catholic religion-- is obvious-- it like the difference between fundamentalism and catholicism----

the catholic religion people pray to hundreds of religious icons or saints – just like in india- the the thousands of gods that – they pray to to get favor in their life–

even whan i looked at Jimmy Akin’s Personal Testimony

going form a denomination to catholic

youtu.be/zyrFQP201Lo

and you compair the testimony of jessi deplantus

Duplantis, once a pop star, now a renowned man of God. God touched his life and changed him and thru him brought salvation to others

youtu.be/QbkOlZJyU-M

going from catholic to word of faith –

i can’t see how the Jews would want to be catholic-- as it is so different from worshiping the one God YAWAH-- and converting to a multi- saint minor god system- to gaine favor

youtu.be/QbkOlZJyU-M

 

[ancailindeas]

the difference between – the jews religion and the catholic religion-- is obvious-- it like the difference between fundamentalism and catholicism----

the catholic religion people pray to hundreds of religious icons or saints – just like in india- the the thousands of gods that – they pray to to get favor in their life–

even whan i looked at Jimmy Akin’s Personal Testimony

going form a denomination to catholic

youtu.be/zyrFQP201Lo

and you compair the testimony of jessi deplantus

Duplantis, once a pop star, now a renowned man of God. God touched his life and changed him and thru him brought salvation to others

youtu.be/QbkOlZJyU-M

going from catholic to word of faith –

i can’t see how the Jews would want to be catholic-- as it is so different from worshiping the one God YAWAH-- and converting to a multi- saint minor god system- to gaine favor

youtu.be/QbkOlZJyU-M

Gosh, you are very misinformed. Rather than suggesting people go to YouTube clips perhaps you should consult with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can find it online and get CORRECT answers regarding what Catholics believe. You have completely misunderstood the Churches attitude to saints and clearly know nothing about Judaism either as they too venerate those they consider to have led an exemplary life.

 

[shelby_sun]

e

The Church teaches that no one comes to the Father except through HIs Son, Jesus Christ. Nobody, neither Catholic faithful nor the Church, damns Jews. But Judaism will not save the Jew. And it is the wish of Christ and His Church that the Jews are saved. They too are precious to him. It is normal that Catholics would worry about non- Catholics souls and desire them to convert. Its normal. It is a sign of charity. It is certainly not condescension - none of us know whether we shall be saved either - we can lose grace at any time but we can have holy hope. There is only one faith - it does not depend where you learned it - but rather whether you learned it at all. Not every priest in the Church preaches sound doctrine - I wish they did but this is reality. There is no triumphalism here. This desire for Jewish conversion on the side of Catholics is a holy thing.

This is not something you KNOW it is something you have been taught and believe. Only God KNOWS, not you or me.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Agreed!!! The Church does not teach Jews are going to hell. Maybe that is just where they learned about their Catholic faith. Makes me wonder if he is a convert. I am a cradle catholic, going to 12 years of Catholic school, and have worked at a Catholic high school for 20 years and not one of the many, many priest I have known, ever taught the Jews were not going to be saved.

I don’t see why people care if the Jews are saved or not. They should be worrying about their own salvation and I don’t see damning people to hell helping them get there!

You are right that the Church does not teach that Jews are going to hell. The Church doesn’t pick on any group and say “they are going to hell”. But that does not imply that the Church teaches that Jews are going to heaven under the Old Covenant. I think the Church is clear that every single soul on this planet goes to heaven ONLY through Jesus Christ. Yes, the Jews have a special relationship with God and with us. They are not saved under the Old Covenant because the Old Covenant was never about salvation. All who will be saved are only saved through Jesus Christ, because the New Covenant in His blood is about salvation.

From the Catechism

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

I feel very sad about your last comment. Essentially, I receive from it the notion that we should just worry about ourselves and don’t consider anyone else. This flatly opposes the Scripture and 2,000 years of Church teaching. I have read that this notion of “don’t evangelize the Jews” stems from a misunderstood passage of Pope Benedict’s book, Jesus of Nazareth. I won’t go in to the whole misunderstanding now, but here is a link that discusses it. I love the prayer at the end of the article.

Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts,** that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men.** (Let us pray. Kneel. Rise.) Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fullness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Do you believe that Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI is “damning the Jews” too?

 

[ancailindeas]

This is not something you KNOW it is something you have been taught and believe. Only God KNOWS, not you or me.

Because of the Magisterium we can know what God would have us believe. God revealed Himself to the Jews in the Old Testament - he communicated his knowledge to the Jews. He does this now through the Church. We know what we know about God (theologically speaking ) because He has revealed it to us. We know for instance that the One God we believe in, is triune. The Jews did not know this. But Catholics KNOW this as it has been revealed.

 

[shelby_sun]

Because of the Magisterium we can know what God would have us believe. God revealed Himself to the Jews in the Old Testament - he communicated his knowledge to the Jews. He does this now through the Church. We know what we know about God (theologically speaking ) because He has revealed it to us. We know for instance that the One God we believe in, is triune. The Jews did not know this. But Catholics KNOW this as it has been revealed.

Sorry, you don’t know, you believe, that is why it is called faith and not fact. The Jews know what they know and the Muslims know what they know but we are cannot know what truth is, we each believe what the truth is.

Has any one wondered why the Pope speaks they way he does sometimes. I was raised by The Jesuit priests so it is not new to me. Why do so many Catholic these days spend so much time looking at and speaking against others instead of going out and finding something to love about the people they meet. I find it very sad and it troubles me when people use evangelizing to excuse their judging.

If I am around a group of Muslims, I am not going to start preach the Bible to them, just like I don’t want the southern Baptist knocking on my door. I go to Church to hear the Gospel, I do not what to hear about from some stranger.

 

[Genesis315]

Faith in Jesus is absolutely necessary for salvation, for both Jews and Gentiles:
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

What we do acknowledge is that for those who do not yet know Jesus through no fault of their own, God can lead them, even in in ways known only to Himself, to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (see CCC 848, Vatican II Ad Gentes 7, etc.).

Pope St. John Paul II made this point well in the following allocution. After discussing the fact that there are many ignorant of the Gospel, he says:
St. John Paul II:

What I have said above, however, does not justify the relativistic position of those who maintain that a way of salvation can be found in any religion, even independently of faith in Christ the Redeemer, and that interreligious dialogue must be based on this ambiguous idea. That solution to the problem of the salvation of those who do not profess the Christian creed is not in conformity with the Gospel. Rather, we must maintain that the way of salvation always passes through Christ, and therefore the Church and her missionaries have the task of making him known and loved in every time, place and culture. Apart from Christ “there is no salvation.” As Peter proclaimed before the Sanhedrin at the very start of the apostolic preaching: “There is no other name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved” (Acts 4:12).

For those too who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and are not recognized as Christians, the divine plan has provided a way of salvation. As we read in the Council’s Decree Ad Gentes, we believe that “God in ways known to himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel” to the faith necessary for salvation (AG 7).

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html