Are Jews saved?

[Nine_Two]

I thought Jesus could save whoever he wanted to, and is never bound by anything.
Never gave this much thought before, so I could be very wrong.
I would think they cetainly are not “saved” wholesale simply because they have the Jewish ancestry. Again, I am willing to be corrected. It just would not make sense if that were the case. I would take the safer approach, and think all would be judged by Jesus on a one on one basis, not a tribal association.

Of course Jesus can “save” whoever he wants (I’m not a fan of that word in this context, mostly because it is usually used in the Once Saved Always Saved context), however he stated what is necessary for that salvation - accepting his sacrifice. God is certainly capable of going beyond that - and I admit I do not fully dismiss the idea of apocatastasis (like universalism except there is still a hell), however we have to go by what he said, rather than what we’d like to think.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Of course Jesus can “save” whoever he wants (I’m not a fan of that word in this context, mostly because it is usually used in the Once Saved Always Saved context), however he stated what is necessary for that salvation - accepting his sacrifice. God is certainly capable of going beyond that - and I admit I do not fully dismiss the idea of apocatastasis (like universalism except there is still a hell), however we have to go by what he said, rather than what we’d like to think.

I was viewing it more the exception than the general rule. And, yes it is wiser to be prudent and not hope to win the lottery.

Re: Saved- I did not mean it in a OSAS way.
Re: Not being disrespectful to those who could be spared, or saved by making a lottery comparison. Clearly, all who he would choose would be there by his design, and plan with his Father and the Holy Spirit in unison.
Please feel free to correct, because I am just working this out on my own now.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I thought Jesus could save whoever he wanted to, and is never bound by anything.
Never gave this much thought before, so I could be very wrong.
I would think they cetainly are not “saved” wholesale simply because they have the Jewish ancestry. Again, I am willing to be corrected. It just would not make sense if that were the case. I would take the safer approach, and think all would be judged by Jesus on a one on one basis, not a tribal association.

Well let’s review a famous passage of scripture.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” [John 3:16-18; ESV; all emphasis mine]

Those who have embraced Christ are given life, and their “life is hidden with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). You are right that God doesn’t save by tribal association (Paul condemns that thinking over and over again in his epistles), but by faith given by grace. If there is no faith in Christ, there is no true faith in God. I wouldn’t say it’s a one-on-one basis, but every person will be judged individually, not on the basis of belonging to such and such tribe.

 

[Nine_Two]

I was viewing it more the exception than the general rule. And, yes it is wiser to be prudent and not hope to win the lottery.

Re: Saved- I did not mean it in a OSAS way.
Re: Not being disrespectful to those who could be spared, or saved by making a lottery comparison. Clearly, all who he would choose would be there by his design, and plan with his Father and the Holy Spirit in unison.
Please feel free to correct, because I am just working this out on my own now.

Yeah, I know you didn’t mean saved in that way, I just have to make clear my objection whenever possible.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Well let’s review a famous passage of scripture.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” [John 3:16-18; ESV; all emphasis mine]

Those who have embraced Christ are given life, and their “life is hidden with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). You are right that God doesn’t save by tribal association (Paul condemns that thinking over and over again in his epistles), but by faith given by grace. If there is no faith in Christ, there is no true faith in God. I wouldn’t say it’s a one-on-one basis, but every person will be judged individually, not on the basis of belonging to such and such tribe.

I am having a hard time deciding how to take passages literally and not so much, and this is only one of the barriers I face.
While I do understand the passages if read literally, I have to bear in mind the audience. The purpose, and the overall scheme of things.
Please be patient with me while I try to sift through all this. I really have given this an honest go, and don’t wish to presume anything hastily.
I am glad to see you again by the way.

 

[Della]

Well let’s review a famous passage of scripture.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” [John 3:16-18; ESV; all emphasis mine]

Those who have embraced Christ are given life, and their “life is hidden with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). You are right that God doesn’t save by tribal association (Paul condemns that thinking over and over again in his epistles), but by faith given by grace. If there is no faith in Christ, there is no true faith in God. I wouldn’t say it’s a one-on-one basis, but every person will be judged individually, not on the basis of belonging to such and such tribe.

Of course, we have to be careful about taking verses out of context, and, perhaps more importantly, out of the greater context of Sacred Tradition from which it came. For those wanting the Catholic Church’s view it’s right there in the Catechism. The Church’s teaching comes from the whole of Christ’s teaching as he gave it to his Apostles and on to their successors, the bishops of the Church. To divorce Scripture from that fact is to miss a large part of its meaning, its place within the life of the Church. It is the witness of the truths of God not the proof text for them. It is the Magisterium that decides those matters that Christ gave to his Apostles to judge. Like the first Church council in Jerusalem, it is the Church that decides matters of faith and morals informed by Scripture within the bounds of Sacred Tradition.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Of course, we have to be careful about taking verses out of context, and, perhaps more importantly, out of the greater context of Sacred Tradition from which it came. For those wanting the Catholic Church’s view it’s right there in the Catechism. The Church’s teaching comes from the whole of Christ’s teaching as he gave it to his Apostles and on to their successors, the bishops of the Church. To divorce Scripture from that fact is to miss a large part of its meaning, its place within the life of the Church. It is the witness of the truths of God not the proof text for them. It is the Magisterium that decides those matters that Christ gave to his Apostles to judge. Like the first Church council in Jerusalem, it is the Church that decides matters of faith and morals informed by Scripture within the bounds of Sacred Tradition.

I apologize, but I’m confused: what does this have to do with the issue of salvation for Jewish unbelievers?

Likewise, if there is a correlation between scripture and Magisterium teachings, then there should be no issue - I can quote scripture, and what scripture teaches will therefore plainly match with what the Magisterium teaches. According to that argumentation, that is.

I am having a hard time deciding how to take passages literally and not so much, and this is only one of the barriers I face.
While I do understand the passages if read literally, I have to bear in mind the audience. The purpose, and the overall scheme of things.
Please be patient with me while I try to sift through all this. I really have given this an honest go, and don’t wish to presume anything hastily.
I am glad to see you again by the way.

You have far more humility than most people on theological forums.

And good to see you again

 

[Della]

I apologize, but I’m confused: what does this have to do with the issue of salvation for Jewish unbelievers?

It has everything to do with choosing a verse to stand alone to answer the question at hand.

Likewise, if there is a correlation between scripture and Magisterium teachings, then there should be no issue - I can quote scripture, and what scripture teaches will therefore plainly match with what the Magisterium teaches. According to that argumentation, that is.

Anyone can quote Scripture, but not everyone has been given the charism of infallibly interpreting it. How you or I read it may/may not conform to the Magisterium’s understanding of it, and only the Magisterium has been given that charism.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

It has everything to do with choosing a verse to stand alone to answer the question at hand.

Actually I didn’t choose “a verse.” I’ve chosen several verses, coupling that post you quoted with my post at the top of the second page. They all have the same context. If somehow I have taken those verses out of context, please feel free to exegete them and show me how.

 

[Della]

Actually I didn’t choose “a verse.” I’ve chosen several verses, coupling that post you quoted with my post at the top of the second page. They all have the same context. If somehow I have taken those verses out of context, please feel free to exegete them and show me how.

While it’s good to quote more than one verse–several is very good–that too isn’t as reliable as what has been passed down through the Apostles, on any teaching. Anyone can string together verses that seem to point in only one direction. It’s what makes individual interpretation such a dangerous thing, and how any number of erroneous teachings have sprung up over the centuries.

I apologize to the OP for unintentionally taking us off on a tangent. What I’m trying to say is, what the Church teaches about the salvation of the Jews (and other non-Christians) is in the Catechism, which I have quoted in this thread. I also provided my own explanation based on the teaching in the Catechism in the hopes of clarification/being helpful. I hope it has been both for the OP.

 

[catholicgirl201]

As long as they believe in god I think they will be saved

 

[Della]

As long as they believe in god I think they will be saved

God certainly saves whom he wills to save. There are many factors involved–which only God can judge. In exploring this issue the Church has outlined those factors that are reasonable and in line with the teaching passed on through the Apostles. We cannot say who will/won’t be saved since that is for God alone to determine. OTOH, we mustn’t be lax in sharing the Gospel thinking since it’s up to God we have no part in helping others to salvation. No one should presume upon the mercy of God–presumption is a sin, as well as slothfulness. So, we need to be witnesses for Christ in our lives and be there when people want to hear the Good News of salvation.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

While it’s good to quote more than one verse–several is very good–that too isn’t as reliable as what has been passed down through the Apostles, on any teaching. Anyone can string together verses that seem to point in only one direction. It’s what makes individual interpretation such a dangerous thing, and how any number of erroneous teachings have sprung up over the centuries.

Again, if I have somehow distorted scripture cited, please show me how. As it stands, I’m afraid to simply say “Any one can string scripture together” without a demonstration of how that is being done is a non sequitor.

As long as they believe in god I think they will be saved

Who do they believe is God? Not Christ - yet Christ is God. Each Person within the Trinity represents the fullness of God - this has been orthodox Christian thought for over 2000 years. To deny one person of the Trinity is to deny them all. The Trinity is not a buffet where someone can go up and say, “I’ll have the Father but not the Son or Holy Spirit.” To accept the one Being of God you must embrace all three Persons within that Being.

You might interject and say, “Well they believe in the Father!” Yet to deny two Persons, as I said, is enough to deny them all. Likewise, Christ stated that only He is the way to the Father, and there is no way to enter through Him. Peter, speaking to the Sanhedrin of the Temple, said: “This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:11-12; ESV). Note that last part: Peter confirms exactly what Christ said in John 14:6.

There is no salvation outside of Christ. To suggest otherwise is to suggest a false gospel.

 

[GerardMajella]

If a Jew believes in God the Father…

…and if Christians believe that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are also “God” (as in the concept of the “Trinity”)…

…then doesn’t that make us all worshiping the same God?

Jews don’t deny God. They just don’t believe in a need for intermediaries, and, instead, believe that it is only proper to pray directly to God.

The Jews do believe in the Holy Spirit, just not in the way Christians do. From Wikipedia:

In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical. Nonetheless, the term Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) is found frequently in Talmudic and Midrashic literature. In some cases it signifies prophetic inspiration, while in others it is used as a hypostatization or a metonym for God. The Rabbinic “Holy Spirit,” has a certain degree of personification, but it remains, “a quality belonging to God, one of his attributes” and not, as in Christianity, representative of “any metaphysical divisions in the Godhead.”

 

[Della]

If a Jew believes in God the Father…

…and if Christians believe that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are also “God” (as in the concept of the “Trinity”)…

…then doesn’t that make us all worshiping the same God?

Jews don’t deny God. They just don’t believe in a need for intermediaries, and, instead, believe that it is only proper to pray directly to God.

The Jews do believe in the Holy Spirit, just not in the way Christians do. From Wikipedia:

In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical. Nonetheless, the term Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) is found frequently in Talmudic and Midrashic literature. In some cases it signifies prophetic inspiration, while in others it is used as a hypostatization or a metonym for God. The Rabbinic “Holy Spirit,” has a certain degree of personification, but it remains, “a quality belonging to God, one of his attributes” and not, as in Christianity, representative of “any metaphysical divisions in the Godhead.”

We are most certainly worshiping the same God. The God of Christianity is the God of the Jews, no doubt about that. If they accepted Jesus as the Son of God they would be Christians. It’s not surprising they would characterize Jesus as an intermediary instead of a member of the Godhead since they don’t accept him as the Messiah. Indeed, there are some Jews who don’t believe there was to be a Messiah or if there was he wouldn’t be divine in nature. As I understand it, it’s the ancient split between the Pharisees’ and Sadducees’ interpretation of the Law and Scripture, when all is said and done.

 

[GerardMajella]

We are most certainly worshiping the same God. The God of Christianity is the God of the Jews, no doubt about that.

If we can both agree that we both worship the same God, then how can it possibly be that the Jews are not saved?

It’s not surprising they would characterize Jesus as an intermediary instead of a member of the Godhead since they don’t accept him as the Messiah.

They don’t look upon Jesus as an intermediary. They look upon Jesus as a false Messiah.

Insofar as intermediaries, the Jews would generally disagree with the concept of intercession in general. Jews are expected to pray only to God, and God alone. Their theological belief is in the singularity of God, not the Trinity.

 

[Della]

If we can both agree that we both worship the same God, then how can it possibly be that the Jews are not saved?

Salvation is not based on worship or belief alone. There are many Christians who will find they aren’t saved who worshiped every Sunday. God requires purity of heart and soul not just lip service, as I’m sure we all agree.

They don’t look upon Jesus as an intermediary. They look upon Jesus as a false Messiah.

Yes and yes. But if they were to think of Jesus as a means of knowing God they would be classifying him as an intermediary, is what I mean.

Insofar as intermediaries, the Jews would generally disagree with the concept of intercession in general. Jews are expected to pray only to God, and God alone. Their theological belief is in the singularity of God, not the Trinity.

Of course we all believe in praying directly to God, but we also all believe in praying for one another. I think many Jews misunderstand our concept of the intercession of the Saints. As they do the concept of God becoming man. Those I’ve read who post here have said that man cannot become God, and that’s perfectly true, but we don’t claim that a man became God we claim that God became a man while fully retaining his divinity. It was Jesus who revealed God the Father and God the Holy Spirit in those terms, and there was an understanding among the Pharisees that the Son of Man would be the Son of God and there are trinitarian concepts of God in the OT. Those Jews who do not accept these things certainly deny them–there’s no surprise there.

 

[GerardMajella]

Salvation is not based on worship or belief alone. There are many Christians who will find they aren’t saved who worshiped every Sunday. God requires purity of heart and soul not just lip service, as I’m sure we all agree.

By this definition – purity of heart and soul – a devout, conscientious Jew would certainly qualify for “salvation”.

But if they were to think of Jesus as a means of knowing God they would be classifying him as an intermediary, is what I mean.

Some Jews look upon Jesus as a prophet, but not the Messiah. Some rabbis take a favorable view of Jesus in that Christ spread the virtues of the Torah worldwide, paving the path for their Jewish Messiah. Some rabbis believe that Jesus came not to abolish the Torah for Jews, but to save only the Gentiles.

 

[Kaninchen]

Some Jews look upon Jesus as a prophet, but not the Messiah. Some rabbis take a favorable view of Jesus in that Christ spread the virtues of the Torah worldwide, paving the path for their Jewish Messiah. Some rabbis believe that Jesus came not to abolish the Torah for Jews, but to save only the Gentiles.

Rather few.

Why would the Gentiles need ‘saving’?

 

[Della]

By this definition – purity of heart and soul – a devout, conscientious Jew would certainly qualify for “salvation”.

No doubt. Of course, I’m not arguing otherwise–just to clarify.

Some Jews look upon Jesus as a prophet, but not the Messiah. Some rabbis take a favorable view of Jesus in that Christ spread the virtues of the Torah worldwide, paving the path for their Jewish Messiah. Some rabbis believe that Jesus came not to abolish the Torah for Jews, but to save only the Gentiles.

I can see how some may hold those views. After all, there isn’t a unity of belief among Jewish leaders, not even within each branch of Judaism. And as Kaninchen appears to be saying, there’s not even a consensus as to what constitutes salvation since not all Jews believe in the afterlife.

We are straying a bit off topic here, though. I think the OP, if I may speak for the OP, intended to know from a Christian, particularly as Catholic understanding if the Jews can be saved as we understand it. So, how they view salvation is probably a moot point for the topic at hand, since it wouldn’t matter how Christians view it in that case.