Are Jews saved?

[look3467]

Byzantine_Wolf

HI, I would like to comment on your signature quote at the bottom of your post.

About an angry God?

Would you say that you as a father or mother love your children?
Do you love them unconditionally?

Is your anger, real anger towards them or is it love correction?

Meaning, that you understand their inability sometimes to see things the right way and tend to want to do things their way, thus leading them to come against your wishes making you angry, but not real anger, but more a disappointment?

I see God being somewhat disappointed in some of the things we do, and as a loving Father that He is, let’s the world do the correcting, so as that we may reconsider the error of our ways, repent and turn to God rather.

The image of an angry God does not give a trespasser freedom to approch God for fear of reprisal.

Check this one verse out: Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

I would rather promote the goodness of God, the riches in God, His forbearance and long suffering which would in the eyes of the transgressor, find solace, refuge in the arms of a loving God, rather than an angry God.

My thoughts only.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Byzantine_Wolf

HI, I would like to comment on your signature quote at the bottom of your post.

About an angry God?..

Hello look3467. That’s kinda getting off-topic, but let me give a brief summary. The quotation comes from Jonathan Edwards famous sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, which started the great revival across colonial America in the mid-1700’s. The first half of the sermon is about God’s judgment against sin, which is very scriptural (see the first three chapters of Romans), but then ends with God’s love and, as you said, the emphasis that God is being patient to give us a chance to repent. You have to read the full sermon to get the full impact, otherwise you might mistaken Edwards’s point in writing it. The best way I can explain it is with the summary: “Before I came to Christ it was God’s justice which held me over the flames of hell, but it was His love which stayed His hand.”

Also, just on another note, this was a rare sermon tone for Edwards to make. Many of his sermons are beautiful explanations of God’s love and mercy on us. Likewise, he was a great family man: he loved his wife to death, and he had many kids, all of whom he took good care of. He also supported Africans and Native Americans being spiritual equals, and believed someday there would be great Native American and African theologians. My point is just to show that one shouldn’t jump to conclusions about Edwards on one sermon.

That’s a brief summary to try to answer your concerns. If you have any other questions or concerns, feel free to PM me or start another thread, and I’d be more than happy to answer.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You’re right to be outraged. How could someone accuse you of being silly after all the intelligent Monty Python and Time Bandits Terry Gilliam quotes!? I find them to be lucid, intelligent, focused points of intellectual seriousness myself…

I simply pointed you to where I had replied to you so we could continue the conversation - I don’t see how that is “being silly.” I also replied in that original post by going through the verses and explaining why I disagreed with you from them. If mere disagreement is “sarcasm,” then I’m sorry but I must reject that. Pointing out theological inconsistencies likewise is not sarcasm - otherwise, we have a lot of sarcastic Church Fathers.

The scripture is clear, and, to be perfectly honest, I think that is the only reason you are always so hesitant to respond to it.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

You’re right to be outraged. How could someone accuse you of being silly after all the intelligent Monty Python and Time Bandits Terry Gilliam quotes!? I find them to be lucid, intelligent, focused points of intellectual seriousness myself…

Hey give me some credit for quoting “Time Bandits” and not “Meet the Spartans”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Why don’t we move on to “Airplane!”? LOL

Dr. Rumack (Leslie Neilsen): “I must find out what these people had for dinner! The poison must be in the food”

Elaine: “Everyone had their choice of steak or fish”

Dr. Rumack: “Yes, I remember. I had lasagna”

And don’t call my shirley!

Hey give me some credit for quoting “Time Bandits” and not “Meet the Spartans”

 

[Soldier_X]

People, we have quotes from Airplane.

 

[look3467]

Hello look3467. That’s kinda getting off-topic, but let me give a brief summary. The quotation comes from Jonathan Edwards famous sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, which started the great revival across colonial America in the mid-1700’s. The first half of the sermon is about God’s judgment against sin, which is very scriptural (see the first three chapters of Romans), but then ends with God’s love and, as you said, the emphasis that God is being patient to give us a chance to repent. You have to read the full sermon to get the full impact, otherwise you might mistaken Edwards’s point in writing it. The best way I can explain it is with the summary: “Before I came to Christ it was God’s justice which held me over the flames of hell, but it was His love which stayed His hand.”

Also, just on another note, this was a rare sermon tone for Edwards to make. Many of his sermons are beautiful explanations of God’s love and mercy on us. Likewise, he was a great family man: he loved his wife to death, and he had many kids, all of whom he took good care of. He also supported Africans and Native Americans being spiritual equals, and believed someday there would be great Native American and African theologians. My point is just to show that one shouldn’t jump to conclusions about Edwards on one sermon.

That’s a brief summary to try to answer your concerns. If you have any other questions or concerns, feel free to PM me or start another thread, and I’d be more than happy to answer.

I knew it was off topic, but I was moved to comment.

Thank you for the explanation and it is well supported.

Blessings, AJ

 

[JJHIII]

This thread embodies a common theme that seems to be making its self present across all of Christianity. Who is saved? Jews? Hindus? Catholics? protestants?

Let us not forget what the Church teaches, what Christ taught, and what the Christians before us believed. There is a possibility of salvation to someone who is a non-Catholic. However these are people who never had the chance to know His true Church or had the chance to know Christ Himself.

Those that do in fact have access to a Bible, Priest, Internet, etc. Will be held far more accountable than those who don’t. A true love of God spurns the want to know more about Him and His religion. And you will be led in the right direction (i.e. Catholic Church). Salvation is NOT based on just being a morally good person. Let us think of what is thought of in the World as “good.”

Good according to this world is morally right. You dont lie, cheat, steal, etc.

Good according to the Law of God is much different. “If you Love Me, then you will keep My commandments” That means keeping the commands of the Church. That is what Aids us to salvation. Keeping the commandments of Christ as taught by His Holy Church

-JJ

 

[look3467]

Here it is, according to AJ’s view:

Christ being the center of the new creation, by necessity, all must come to Christ, sooner, or later, here or at the hereafter.

Ref:Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

God’s righteousness “shall not return” as in being granted, given as a free gift to where every tonque shall confess that Jesus is the Christ of God.

Therefore, all of mankind must become Christians, meaning Christ’s, including all Jews, all Catholics, and all protestants.

When will all that happen? When God sees fit to make it happen.

We’ve come along ways since Jesus became the first of the first born of the new creation, of which we are the second.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Those that do in fact have access to a Bible, Priest, Internet, etc. Will be held far more accountable than those who don’t. A true love of God spurns the want to know more about Him and His religion. And you will be led in the right direction (i.e. Catholic Church). Salvation is NOT based on just being a morally good person. Let us think of what is thought of in the World as “good.”

It works for you in that there is where you found your resting place.
I believe the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God is ever active at work in the hearts of mankind by prompting, leading mankind to various positions in humanity in order to teach, build and influence others via behavior to look towards God for their spiritual food.

The Spirit of God no longer needs an earthly temple built with hands to inhabit the hearts of His Children.

Ref: Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

That hour came at the cross.Prior to Jesus, the temple was the only true place of worship , and after the resurrection, the temple of God rests in the hearts of mankind.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

But another Priest arose; being Jesus after the order of Melchisedec and not after the order of Aaron.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

“The hour cometh”: it came!

Now: 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Can we lock ourselves in a closet and reach God via our spirit?

Can this closet be on an Island void of any outside communication?

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If God abides in you as a new creature, your mouth, your works will confess it.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You see, the blindness happen to the Jews so that salvation could come to us, the Gentiles, for the circumcision for us is not one outwardly, but rather one inwardly, that of the circumcision of the heart which is spiritual, salvation comes to us.

The Jew being first now are become second, still, yet shall be saved.

So brethren, 1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

What would keep us from loving one another with a pure heart?

Blessings, AJ

 

[JJHIII]

It works for you in that there is where you found your resting place.
I believe the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God is ever active at work in the hearts of mankind by prompting, leading mankind to various positions in humanity in order to teach, build and influence others via behavior to look towards God for their spiritual food.

The Spirit of God no longer needs an earthly temple built with hands to inhabit the hearts of His Children.

Ref: Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

That hour came at the cross.Prior to Jesus, the temple was the only true place of worship , and after the resurrection, the temple of God rests in the hearts of mankind.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

But another Priest arose; being Jesus after the order of Melchisedec and not after the order of Aaron.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

“The hour cometh”: it came!

Now: 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Can we lock ourselves in a closet and reach God via our spirit?

Can this closet be on an Island void of any outside communication?

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If God abides in you as a new creature, your mouth, your works will confess it.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You see, the blindness happen to the Jews so that salvation could come to us, the Gentiles, for the circumcision for us is not one outwardly, but rather one inwardly, that of the circumcision of the heart which is spiritual, salvation comes to us.

The Jew being first now are become second, still, yet shall be saved.

So brethren, 1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

What would keep us from loving one another with a pure heart?

Blessings, AJ

Im not 100% sure as what you’re trying to say here, Im sorry i dont mean for this to be rude by any stretch. But are you trying to say that the Catholic Priesthood is unbiblical? or the fact that it is faith alone in God that, not the Christian God just God in general, that saves?

Because those scriptures preach to the fact that the Jews, as a religion, are no longer the “people of God.” The time came for a change. Now the true Christians are the people of God. THe priesthood has changed. All Christians are priests in the sense that all Christians can go to God through Christ. And not just levites can be “Presbyters” but any man can.

So I’m not sure what you are trying to say, if you would please tell me

Thanks,
JJ

 

[look3467]

Hi, JJ

First I am not an authority on anything just presenting my views for interaction.

In answering your concerns:

Im not 100% sure as what you’re trying to say here…But are you trying to say that the Catholic Priesthood is unbiblical?

Not at all.

What I am saying is the we are the priesthood in Christ making spiritual sacrifices.
Ref: “Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood…”

You see, the priesthood was a necessary component as a picture of the priest that was to come, that being the picture of Jesus.

So, by necessity, there must be a change from the Levitical priesthood (represents the law) to the Priest hood of Jesus.(representing Grace)

What that is saying is that the priesthood as pertaining to the law (Law of Moses) is no longer the determining factor in the salvation of our souls.

The law becomes only a guide and the power of its condemnation is nulified, to that of the righteouness of God in Jesus being granted us as a free gift.

Therefore, there no longer exists the need for an earthly type of priesthood as such, since we become that priesthood directly linking us to God in Christ in our hearts.

Ref: 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

“lively stones” is a metaphor for the Jews being dead spiritually because Jesus cut them off by the following statement made specifically for them: Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You see, prior to Jesus, the Jews had Moses and the prophets to link them to the Father and thus were required to adhere strictly to the law.

By so doing, God did the following: 2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

There were blinded by their strict adherence to the law that they could not see Jesus as their new link to the father, therefore, Jesus must be an impostor.

You know the rest of the story.

In answering you about the Catholic priesthood, is a matter of your choosing.
If you are comfortable with that, then that’s what you need in your life.

Either way, God knows the intent of your heart.

Because those scriptures preach to the fact that the Jews, as a religion, are no longer the “people of God.” The time came for a change. Now the true Christians are the people of God. THe priesthood has changed. All Christians are priests in the sense that all Christians can go to God through Christ. And not just levites can be “Presbyters” but any man can.

You have answered your own concerns here except that the Jews are a people of God used mightily in the works of salvation for the rest of the world.

It is yet to be accomplished where they too will have their eyes opened to who Jesus really is: I suspect in the very near future, perhaps around 2029?

Just a guess, not setting times here.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

It is yet to be accomplished where they too will have their eyes opened to who Jesus really is: I suspect in the very near future, perhaps around 2029?

Just a guess, not setting times here.

I hope it’s a guess in jest, and you’re not one of those internet prophets

BTW, it’s not 2029, it’s 2030 (no, I’m kidding there too ).

 

[Nine_Two]

I am, of course, joking, Nine. I can’t read hide nor hair of what you had at the bottom LOL!

It essentially says don’t keep arguing the same thing over and over again.

 

[Nine_Two]

That’s like a father telling his son to mow the lawn, the son not doing it, and when the mother says, “You know your father told you to mow the lawn,” the son replying, “That’s just your interpretation.”

Except the bible isn’t three words long. The longer the set of instructions, the more complex they become, the more important correct interpretation becomes.

If you wrote, say, a three hundred page document which includes instructions to mow the lawn, I guarantee someone could find another way to interpret it.

Of course in that case we’d only know the true interpretation because we had you, the author around to consult. Of course as many here would argue the authority behind the bible still exists on earth to interpret it (I hasten to add that many of those who would argue that wouldn’t bother consulting such a body to determine how to properly interpret it).

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Except the bible isn’t three words long. The longer the set of instructions, the more complex they become, the more important correct interpretation becomes.

If you wrote, say, a three hundred page document which includes instructions to mow the lawn, I guarantee someone could find another way to interpret it.

Of course in that case we’d only know the true interpretation because we had you, the author around to consult. Of course as many here would argue the authority behind the bible still exists on earth to interpret it (I hasten to add that many of those who would argue that wouldn’t bother consulting such a body to determine how to properly interpret it).

I don’t deny that it’s possible to take a large document and decipher different interpretations. However, I haven’t taken random parts that are unrelated, I’ve taken several verses all related to the topic of salvation and how it is obtained. Those who have told me I’ve taken them out of context have yet to show me how, and when I asked them to show me how they depart or present more bluster.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That’s nothing, man. You ought to get on that Matthew 16:18 thread. Good Lord. I got off there. It’s just carnage man. Pure carnage. These people go bererk on there if you disagree with them. They go all “Enter the Dragon” on ya! I felt like the folks in the mall on the original Dawn of the Dead!

I don’t deny that it’s possible to take a large document and decipher different interpretations. However, I haven’t taken random parts that are unrelated, I’ve taken several verses all related to the topic of salvation and how it is obtained. Those who have told me I’ve taken them out of context have yet to show me how, and when I asked them to show me how they depart or present more bluster.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

That’s nothing, man. You ought to get on that Matthew 16:18 thread. Good Lord. I got off there. It’s just carnage man. Pure carnage. These people go bererk on there if you disagree with them. They go all “Enter the Dragon” on ya! I felt like the folks in the mall on the original Dawn of the Dead!

Sometimes I feel like the spoof of Enter the Dragon in Kentucky Fried Movie. The scene where the Bruce Lee spoof keeps knocking down the main thug, and the thug keeps getting back up, and at one point the Bruce Lee character mouths silently, “What the f…” I feel that way when I point out something in a person’s argument and they keep repeating what I addressed. :whacky: At the end of the scene the Bruce Lee character dumps an engine on the guy, and that’s me leaving the thread.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t deny that it’s possible to take a large document and decipher different interpretations. However, I haven’t taken random parts that are unrelated, I’ve taken several verses all related to the topic of salvation and how it is obtained. Those who have told me I’ve taken them out of context have yet to show me how, and when I asked them to show me how they depart or present more bluster.

Possible? I’d say it is impossible not to, and the multitude of “churches” seems to prove that. While I mostly agree with your point, there is room for interpretation there - though the more extreme universalist positions clearly have no basis in scripture or Tradition.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

We were debating Honorius and his being a Monothelite heretic. Arguing with some of these folks an issue that has obvious facts and historical records they deny reality and I feel like Abbott and Costello with Who’s on First? LOL…

Sometimes I feel like the spoof of Enter the Dragon in Kentucky Fried Movie. The scene where the Bruce Lee spoof keeps knocking down the main thug, and the thug keeps getting back up, and at one point the Bruce Lee character mouths silently, “What the f…” I feel that way when I point out something in a person’s argument and they keep repeating what I addressed. :whacky: At the end of the scene the Bruce Lee character dumps an engine on the guy, and that’s me leaving the thread.