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Zhenia
Guest
This is true. In fact, after the time of Christ, the Jews did accept several false messiahs, such as Bar Kochba (Bar Kosiba), and Shabtai Zvi.
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swariffin
Guest
That’s what I heard from him. Perhaps you can search the old post under the name Ben Masada, if the moderator has not erased it. If I had time, I hope I can link it to you. At least he admitted that not all Jewish share the same belief. In fact, among the modern Jewish today, there are many “branches” of beliefs too, just like the denomination in Christianity.
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bluemary
Guest
I never meant to indicate that you did. I would hope that you, and all people of every faith, and no faith at all, would want to know what the TRUTH is! If we blindly believe without investigating our faith, is it truly faith at all? Eventually we will all die, that is a fact. Haven’t you ever wondered what will happen to you then? I have no problem admitting that I have. If there is anything that I can be doing, or understanding, that will assure my future upon my death, I’d certainly like to know. I realize that there are many Catholics that never question whether or not their faith is correct too, but I think that the wise person asks whether they are believing the truth. Just because you’ve never questioned whether Jesus was indeed the long awaited Messiah, doesn’t mean that other Jews do not. There have obviously been many Jews that have questioned and some who have become Christians.
My comments were aimed at my fellow Christians, in order to help them understand the various sides of the issue. The last comment was to hope that anyone questioning their faith and it’s truth would simply ask God to reveal the Truth, while honestly searching to discover any factual evidence that they can. Obviously I believe in the Catholic faith, or I wouldn’t practice it. I did question whether or not Jesus was the messiah and looked for the evidence that would support that. If I hadn’t found anything to support it, that would have caused me to question whether I was following the truth of God or not. The Law and the Prophets (our Old Testament) helps my faith tremendously and I praise the Almighty for them. I consider the Christian faith, the completion of the Jewish faith, therefore it would be crazy for me to insult your faith. I believe that anyone searching earnestly for the truth of God, will find it.
I, like many other Christians, have also wondered what practicing Jews feel about the Messiah. I would think it very difficult to believe that he was not the promised Messiah based on the many years that have past since the promise of one, and the many people that believe that Jesus fulfilled it. It’s not meant to insult your faith. Contrary to how I may come across, I do NOT feel that I am somehow superior to you, but only another person on this planet trying to find the truth and hoping that you do too. :ehh:
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Kaninchen
Guest
I think that, after more than a decade and a half of talking to Christians on the Internet (including four and a half years of CAF), I doubt that there are many arguments for Christianity that I’ve not come across.
You know, in all that time, I don’t think I’ve ever tried to suggest that a Christian should ever be anything other than a Christian.
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Robertanthony
Guest
Allow me to insist: how do you as a Jew and other Jews you know view Jesus, particularly with regard to his claims of a)being the son of God b)being the Messiah? If you don’t believe in Jesus being the son of God and the prophesied Messiah, pray tell what you are doing on a forum for people whose religion is based on and was founded by Jesus? I’m sincerely puzzled by this. Perhaps you want to learn about Jesus so as to investigate him as a possible fulfillment of OT prophesies?
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Kaninchen
Guest
You seem to assume that we take the ‘NT’ at face-value. We don’t - any more than you take the Qu’ran or Book of Mormon at face-value.
I used to be interested in what other people believed, now I’m far more interested in the consequences of what they believe.
Been there, done that.
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Zhenia
Guest
Yes, you’re right.
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Zhenia
Guest
I didn’t realize that many others knew this history behind the Jewish suppression of the LXX (Septuagint), and their consequent advocacy of the Masoretic Text in its place…this, even though the LXX was used without any question by all Jews for 300 yrs prior to the time of Christ, and the Talmud even says that it was a divinely inspired translation!What many people do not understand is the formation of the Jewish Bible. Although I still have a great deal to learn and understand about the Jewish faith, as a Christian I respect them for being founded by the one true God. They were the faith which the Messiah was to come from. The Jewish Law and the Prophets (which make up our Old Testament) are to be respected and followed by those of us who profess to be Christians. (we believe, however, that most of the prophesies have now been fulfilled through Jesus Christ.)
The canon of the Jewish Bible was not formally closed until aprox 90ad. (if I have that correct?) Before this, however, there were several versions of Jewish texts. There was the Septuagint (which Catholics and all of the early Christians followed) and the Masoretic text, plus others. After Christ was crucified, died and was buried (and rose again and ascended into Heaven if you are Christian). You had the Jews that followed Jesus as the Messiah and you had the Jews that didn’t accept Him as the Messiah. There were many books in the Septuagint that indicated that Jesus was, in fact, the Messiah (especially in the Prophetic books.) This created a problem for the Jewish faith. Because of this it was decided that they should take a look at the ancient Prophetic books. They choose to use only those that met certain standards (such as being originally written in Hebrew), thus throwing out most of the books that could be used to verify Jesus as the Messiah. This is where the Protestants get their Old Testament and why there remain “disputed” books between the Catholic and Protestant Old Testaments. The Catholic Church continued to use the ORIGINAL Old Testament books (from the Septuagint) and choose to reaffirm this decision again and again, finally formally closing our canon. (It has never been that books were added to the Catholic version of the Bible, but that the Catholic church only needed to keep reaffirming our faith in the original books of the Bible every time another split took place.)
If you are a Christian, than you will find in your Bible, in the New Testament, that God closed up the ears & eyes of the Jews that choose to deny Christ, and will continue to keep them closed until the “time of the Gentiles” is fulfilled. It is at this time, when the full number of Gentiles will have come into the faith, that God will open the eyes and ears of our Jewish brethren and allow them to truly see that Jesus Christ was in fact the prophesied messiah and then they will accept and come to the faith also.
Currently there is word that many many Jews are converting to Christianity. Is this an indication that the full number of the Gentiles has come to the faith? Is it an indication that we are living in the end time? Perhaps. We should stay alert and watch. For my Jewish brothers and sisters, I only pray that you will investigate the original prophesies and read about what Christ did and why He fulfilled ALL of the Jewish prophesies concerning the Messiah. The probability of this happening with one man are so low as to be virtually impossible, unless it were a miracle of God, and Jesus was, in fact, the long awaited Messiah. I find that most Jews are not even aware of everything that Jesus did. Jesus is a Historic figure and there is a huge amount of evidence indicating that He truly lived and these things truly took place. There is evidence by non-Christians of the ancient times also.
Despite there being less evidence left in the Protestant Old Testament to prove Jesus is the Messiah, it is still there.
All I can say is that I can only imagine the problem that a faithful Jew would have in this day and age. If you are faithful to your law and your prophets and the belief that Jesus was not the Messiah, then to consider the possibility could be seen as blasphemous. That being said, if Jesus is truly the Messiah and you don’t investigate the evidence then you would be guilty of denying the Holy One of Israel! Also, a terrible thing. Then there is also the issues with your families if you do convert. Not an easy choice.
That being said, here is what I would suggest. Pray to the Almighty. Ask Him for the Truth and to show you the way. We are only to search for the Truth and the Way. Read what you can and let the Almighty speak to your heart. He will know your heart and how sincerely you wish to serve and follow Him. He will never abandoned any of His children that wish to know the truth. Keep searching. Keep asking.
I will pray for you all and I ask that you pray for me also. In peace.
Incidentally, not only the Roman Catholics use the LXX; the Eastern Orthodox also do.
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valentino
Guest
that’s some amazing stuff.thanks.
meltzerboy
New member
I’m sure some Jews do wonder. Chasidic Jews (the most Orthodox) expect the arrival of the Messiah from day to day, even from minute to minute. However, there have also been drawn up certain pre-conditions, which probably provide a justification for his delay. These reasons fall under the categories of either the Messiah will come only when people repent of their sins (particularly the Jews) or only at a time when the behavior of the world is at its absolute worst, or perhaps at its best. More specific ideas include that the Messiah will arrive when all Jews fully observe the Sabbath at least once, or fully observe two Sabbaths in a row. None of these ideas is part of official Jewish doctrine, to my knowledge. One other point: it is considered a bad thing for any Jew to attempt to predict the exact time of the coming of the Messiah since this is equivalent to preempting G-d’s own will.
Isn’t it similar for Christians, wondering what’s taking Jesus so long to return?
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antonivs
Guest
A very fair question. The Jewish people have only been waiting 31% longer for the arrival of the Messiah than Christians have been waiting for the Second Coming of Christ.
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Zhenia
Guest
I was taught as a child that Moshiach would come when all Jews kept one Shabbos at the same time.
The Lubavitch Chasidim teach that to make Moshiach come, Jews should shout and demand, “We want Moshiach NOW!” (I always found that kind of arrogant myself.)
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trdchubi
Guest
Hmmm…sounds like the islamic mahdi.
According to Islamic scholars one of the things that he will do is opposed the islamic fundamentalist (the ulama and the suffis), in order for him to build the third temple of jerusalem and proclaim himself as the jewish messiah.
The Lord has warned about Him in the scriptures:
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. Matthew 24:23-25
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Zhenia
Guest
When I first read this in the New Testament, it didn’t dawn on me, but Christ was here predicting the widespread Jewish acceptance of Bar Kochba, and possibly also (later on), Shabtai Zvi.
Almost all Jews accepted Bar Kochba (Bar Kosiba) as the messiah, not long after the time of Christ. Even the famous Rabbi Akiva declared Bar Kochba the messiah.
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Robertanthony
Guest
Fascinating stuff. I knew about the “mahdi”, but didn’t know what Islamic scholars had to say about him. Third temple, self-proclamation, abomination of desolation.
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