Are John and James the brothers of Christ?

[Church_Militant]

Achatius:

I apologise for my not reading the earlier post. But if this Gospel is the word of Christ, and he meant it to be part of Christian scripture then aren’t you rejecting the word of God? **But this document is not the product of the Gnostics **

• and i didn’t really see the relevance of the collection of lines from different sources.I’m sorry but you’re wrong about this. The Gospel of Thomas is indeed considered Gnostic and therefore NOT Christian. You can read it HERE on this Gnostic site as well as on New Advent . (See the section on Literature) Which offers the following on this particular writing:

A “Gospel of Philip” and a “Gospel of Thomas”. According to the Pistis Sophia, the three Apostles Matthew [read Matthias], Thomas, and Philip received a Divine commission to report all Christ’s revelations after His Resurrection. The Gospel of Thomas must have been of considerable length (1300 lines); part of it, in an expurgated recension, is possibly extant in the once popular, but vulgar and foolish, “Stories of the Infancy of Our Lord by Thomas, an Israelite philosopher”, of which two Greek, as Latin, a Syriac, and a Slavonic version exist.

and also

Gnostic literature, therefore, possesses little or no intrinsic value, however great its value for history and psychology. It is of unparalleled importance in the study of the surroundings in which Christianity first arose.

It may make interesting reading, but is largely worthless as far as building faith or offering anything reliable for Christian history.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Eliza10]

The Gospel of Thomas is not inspired in any way. It conflicts with scriptures and has long been known as heresay. To say that Jesus has a half-brother, that Mary was not ever-virgin, is to go against the traditon handed down by the Apostles from the first days. Who wrote that is a liar. And we know who the liar is.

Its not a work of Thomas, Apostle of Christ.

 

[Achatius]

Recent discovery has enabled us to say that the Gospel of Thomas is not the product of the Gnostics. This is due to the fact that earlier dated fragment of the Gospel have been found, that pre-date the Gnostics. Though this is not an area i really know much about so…

 

[Achatius]

And i wasn’t disputing that Mary was a Virgin when she concieved Jesus, but is it not possible that she had another child, just not by miraculous conception?

 

[FCEGM]

Achatius:

And i wasn’t disputing that Mary was a Virgin when she concieved Jesus, but is it not possible that she had another child, just not by miraculous conception?

No.

No more than it was possible that the Ark of the Covenant in the Temple was available for other purposes than that for which God designed it.

 

[rhymer2]

thistle:

Where does it say James and John were the sons of Mary and Joseph. Scripture, as you rightly quoted, states they are the sons of Zebedee or are you implying that Zebedee is a nickname for Mary or Joseph??

Yes!!!

Mar 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene,** and Mary the mother of ** James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Notice that Joses is the same as John.

Mat 13:54-57 “And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this [man] this wisdom, and [these] mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things? And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.”

 

[rhymer2]

Eliza10:

I’ll tell you what it says in the Poem of the Man-God**, which we have been heatedly discussing in this forum lately, and which is a private revleation and you are not required to believe it.

Here is what I learned about the brothers of Christ in Valtorta’s book, which I am sure will not be against anything in the Bible, and the info is likely supported by other theologians who gleaned this info in other ways:

It is the Apostles Judas Thaddeus and James of Alphaeus who are the first cousins of Jesus. Their father, Alphaeus, is the brother of St. Joseph, Jesus’ earthly father, and lives in their town. Alphaeus and his wife Mary had other sons and daughters, but their two youngest were Judas and James.

In Volume One we see where Judas and James had already been enrolled in the school, and Aphaeus asserts it is time to put Jesus in that school, and Mary, with Joseph’s backing, says no, she is going to teach Jesus at home (she herself was educated in the Temple). In this scene, Aphaeus’ wife Mary asks Our Lady if she will also teach her sons James and Judas. Mary said, yes, if it was okay with Alphaeus, who is pesuaded and agrees. Judas and James are then “homeschooled” for many years in the laws of God at the feet of Mary along with Jesus.

This is one of my favorite passages in the book, thats why I remembered it.

So I too feel its those two who are his cousins of the Apostles. Which you probably know is the same word as brother in Aramaic. James later became Bishop of Jeruselam. I not sure where Judas Thaddeus went but we know him as the powerful prayer intercessor St. Jude. Wonderful St. Jude. Valtorta describes them and all the apostles in her book and its beautiful.

**Poem of the Man-God consists of five very thick volumes and are primarily visions reported by Maria Valtorta, who wrote them “as” she “saw” them. That is, she was brought by Jesus into the scenes of his life, one scene at a time, and the volumes are made up of scene after scene which Valtorta depicts in her beautiful descriptivce writing style, including descriptions of people and place and converstaions verbatim. There are a few further explanations of certain scenes by Jesus or Mary throughout the book which are dictated to Valtorta and she writes verbatim. She wrote them around the 1950s, she had a spriitual director, and she was a sick invalid in bed when she wrote them - verbatim, not erasing, in long hand in many notebooks and that is what the books are.

Ther are reputable, credible, reliable people on* both* sides, for and against Valtorta.

Mat 13:54-57 “And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this [man] this wisdom, and [these] mighty works? **Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? ** Whence then hath this [man] all these things? And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.”

These scripture, based on the context, is speaking of Christ and his family, Joseph being a carpenter, and Mary his wife.

Mar 6:1-4 “And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? **Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? ** and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.”

 

[rhymer2]

thistle:

Where does it say James and John were the sons of Mary and Joseph. Scripture, as you rightly quoted, states they are the sons of Zebedee or are you implying that Zebedee is a nickname for Mary or Joseph??

Mar 6:1-4

Mat 13:54-57

Who are these verses refering to, if not Christ, by context.

 

[rhymer2]

SolaChristo:

This is truely a debate that will continue until we all know when we get to heaven.
The best arguement, in my view, that the Catholics have is that Jesus gave Mary to John while he was on the cross. If there were other siblings there would have been no reason for that to occur.

Mat 13:54-57

Mar 6:1-4 This is self-explanatory.

 

[thistle]

To rhymer2. You have not yet made a response to post#15.

 

[rhymer2]

thistle:

I agree with that.
I’m still curious though to know why rhmer2 says they are the sons of Mary and Jospeph when even the scripture quote he gave says they are the sons of Zebedee!!

Mat 13:54-57 “And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this [man] this wisdom, and [these] mighty works? **Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? ** Whence then hath this [man] all these things? And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.”

 

[rhymer2]

Aaron I.:

If they were the sons of Zebedee and Mary, it would be in reference to a previous marriage. This would be impractical because a virgin must have given birth to Christ. Also, Mary asks the angel Gabrield, “how can this be since I have no relations with a man?”

I’ll answer by quoting OriginalJS’ opinion.

The gospels and other scriptures are not internallly consistent on a number of factual matters and simply can’t be reconciled, at least not in 21st century terms. In this case, whether Jesus, James and John were brothers, Matthew says one thing; Luke another.

Other examples:

The genealogy of Jesus in Matthew 1 is different from the genealogy of Jesus in Luke 3 not only in that in Matthew the genealogy starts with Abraham and works down, while in Luke it starts with Joseph and works up. According to Matthew Jesus’ grandfather was Mattan; according to Luke he was Heli etc. A glance at these scriptures will quickly show you the disparities.

According to Matthew about two years after Jesus’ birth, the Magi visited the Holy Family in Bethlehem, then being warned in a dream, Joseph took Jesus and Mary to Egypt and stayed until Herod died. However, according to Luke, after he was born Jesus was taken to the Temple and after all the rites had been performed, Mary and Joseph took him to their home in Nazareth where Jesus grew up. And, Luke 2 says, they took Jesus to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover every year. Egypt isn’t mentioned in Luke at all.

 

[rhymer2]

Ryan King:

In ancient times, the term “brother” could mean having at least one parent in common, as we mean in modern times, or cousin. Perhps the word “kinsmen” would be closest to what the ancients meant by “brothers” or “brethren”. Another theory holds that Jesus had half-brothers, who were Joseph’s sons by a previous marriage. One should look carefully at names like “Mary” in the Bible, which have been the source of no small confusion. Consider Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary Magdalene, the Mary from the story of Mary and Martha, and the like.

This is not a theory, it’s a fact based on :

Mat 13:54-57 & Mar 6:1-4

 

[rhymer2]

Eliza10:

I’ll tell you what it says in the Poem of the Man-God**, which we have been heatedly discussing in this forum lately, and which is a private revleation and you are not required to believe it.

Here is what I learned about the brothers of Christ in Valtorta’s book, which I am sure will not be against anything in the Bible, and the info is likely supported by other theologians who gleaned this info in other ways:

It is the Apostles Judas Thaddeus and James of Alphaeus who are the first cousins of Jesus. Their father, Alphaeus, is the brother of St. Joseph, Jesus’ earthly father, and lives in their town. Alphaeus and his wife Mary had other sons and daughters, but their two youngest were Judas and James.

In Volume One we see where Judas and James had already been enrolled in the school, and Aphaeus asserts it is time to put Jesus in that school, and Mary, with Joseph’s backing, says no, she is going to teach Jesus at home (she herself was educated in the Temple). In this scene, Aphaeus’ wife Mary asks Our Lady if she will also teach her sons James and Judas. Mary said, yes, if it was okay with Alphaeus, who is pesuaded and agrees. Judas and James are then “homeschooled” for many years in the laws of God at the feet of Mary along with Jesus.

This is one of my favorite passages in the book, thats why I remembered it.

So I too feel its those two who are his cousins of the Apostles. Which you probably know is the same word as brother in Aramaic. James later became Bishop of Jeruselam. I not sure where Judas Thaddeus went but we know him as the powerful prayer intercessor St. Jude. Wonderful St. Jude. Valtorta describes them and all the apostles in her book and its beautiful.

**Poem of the Man-God consists of five very thick volumes and are primarily visions reported by Maria Valtorta, who wrote them “as” she “saw” them. That is, she was brought by Jesus into the scenes of his life, one scene at a time, and the volumes are made up of scene after scene which Valtorta depicts in her beautiful descriptivce writing style, including descriptions of people and place and converstaions verbatim. There are a few further explanations of certain scenes by Jesus or Mary throughout the book which are dictated to Valtorta and she writes verbatim. She wrote them around the 1950s, she had a spriitual director, and she was a sick invalid in bed when she wrote them - verbatim, not erasing, in long hand in many notebooks and that is what the books are.

Ther are reputable, credible, reliable people on* both* sides, for and against Valtorta.

Which book is more credible?

Mat 13:54-57 &
Mar 6:1-4

 

[rhymer2]

Malachi4U:

You cannot prove Jesus had siblings Scripturally either. Did you know the Bible was not first written in English? The King James Version was not the first Bible? Early Protestants hated the KJV and used the Geneva Bible, etc. The Pilgrams would have tossed you out on the grass if you ‘shewed’ up with a KJV! Every language has words not in other languages or in which words are used in various ways?

Did you know the Protestant "re/DE"formers believed Blessed Mary to be ever virgin? The first time this mythology of siblings of Jesus was ever mentioned that I have found was in the late 1800’s. The rapture and tribulation myth wasn’t invented untill the 1830’s. The Mormons, SDA’s, JW’s, CS’s, etc. were all invented in this same time and era of my"And he went out from thence, and came into his own countrthology.

I used to go into my former Baptist church and they all called each other brothers and sisters. Were we all siblings? NO. If you read in context and not one verse independent of another verse you will start to see more clearly. Did you know Bible chapter numbers were madeup by a Catholic? Did you know verse numbers were randomly added by typesetters? Read St. Mt 13 again.

Did you not read the errors in you own proof? The same guy that claimed Jesus was the Son of Joseph also missunderstood the concept of brethren of Jesus too. Do you believe Jesus is the son of God or the son of Joseph? According to your own proof Jesus is the son of Joseph and is therefore NOT the son of God. Read St. Mt 13 again only add a bit of CONTEXT.

As Paul Harvey would say,

Good day!

That’s what I’m showing to everyone, my friend, but how can you take these scriptures out of context?

You cannot prove Jesus had siblings Scripturally either.

Then what’s this?

Mat 13:54-57 & Mar 6:1-4

 

[rhymer2]

Strider:

Prove it Bibically? Follow the bouncing ball:

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

Okay, Jesus has a “brother” named James.

Gal 1:18,19 Then after three years I went to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

So, James, the “brother of the Lord,” is an apostle.

Luk 6:13-16 And when it was day, he gathered his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his prother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholoemew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alpheus, and Simoin who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

There are two apostles named James. One of them is referred to by St. Paul as the “brother of the Lord.” The above passage eliminates one of them, he is the “son of Alpheus,” not Joseph.

Mk, 13-19 And he went up into the hills and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him. And he appointed twelve to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and to have authority to cast out demons: Simon whom he surnamed Peter, James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Boanerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, and Simoin the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

Here, both Jameses are named: James the son of Zebedee and James the son of Alpheus. So, if “James the Brother of the Lord” was an apostle, as St. Paul says, he can’t be the son of either Alpheus of Zebedee. There is no James the apostle who could also be James the sibling brother of Jesus.
And, since we know that Jesus spoke Aramaic, which had no word for cousin, nephew or other close relation other than father, mother and brother and we also know that the word “brother” was used, not only for relatives but close friends or associates:
Acts 1:14 All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Acts 1:15 In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty)…
Even subtracting the women, there were probably 80 “brethren” there. If they were all Jesus’ siblings, Mary was not perpetual virgin, but perpetually pregnant (I stole that line from John Martignoni). Even then, it is not possible that they were all “brethren (siblings) of the Lord.”

So, there’s your Scripturao evidence.

The bouncing ball, huh?

Mat 13:54-57 & Mar 6:1-4

 

[rhymer2]

bettyg51:

I have a web site that shows that the “brothers of Jesus” were sons of men other than Joseph; ergo, not the child of Mary and Joseph.
geocities.com/bettyg51/BrothersJesus.htm

I like the idea that the story of Jesus getting lost when he was 12 does not mention other children. Wouldn’t it have said that Joseph, Mary **and their children ** went back to look for him?

What does these scriptures say?

Mat 13:54-57 & Mar 6:1-4

It needs no interpretation!!!

 

[rhymer2]

Mary is Ever Virgin

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the “first-born” son of Mary. But “first-born” is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the “first-born” son had to be sanctified. “First-born” status does not require a “second” born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as “the” son of Mary, not “a” son of Mary. Also “brothers” could have theoretically been Joseph’s children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you “will” conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, “How shall this be?” Mary’s response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus’ biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as “the other Mary.”

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of “Alpheus.” This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

With all that said and done:

Mat 13:54-57 & Mar 6:1-4

 

[rhymer2]

Tantum ergo:

Well, it looks as though the original question has been most thoroughly, and most scripturally answered.

John and James are NOT the brothers of Jesus.

Next question?

Says who?

Mat 13:54-57 “And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this [man] this wisdom, and [these] mighty works? **Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? ** Whence then hath this [man] all these things? And they were offended in him. **But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.” **

Mar 6:1-4 "And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? **Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? ** And they were offended at him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house."

 

[rhymer2]

Achatius:

In the Gospel of St. Thomas, thought to be the very words of Christ himself, it reads in Aramaic that Jesus had a half brother - James; James being the son of Mary and Joseph. I don’t know whether that this is true but the same fact is also suggested in the Gospels by the Apostle St. Paul.

Mat 13:54-57 & Mar 6:1-4