Are Kneelers Mandated in Chicago?

[KateD]

I had a disturbing conversation with my pastor this weekend.
He is beginning a fundraising campaign, and one of the things he wants to buy at some point is new chairs. We do not have pews or kneelers. When I asked him after Mass whether the new chairs would have kneelers connected to them, he answered no and said they were not necessary.

I thought the directive from the Archdiocese of Chicago was that during a building or renovation (we would also be doing tuckpointing and new carpeting) we are now to have kneelers installed. He claims that this is not the case and that we don’t need them. After telling him that I wish we could keep the old chairs if we aren’t going to get the kneelers some of us having been waiting years to get, he snapped, “Then don’t contribute. I don’t care.”

Is he correct in that we don’t need the kneelers or that the Archdiocese does not have this directive? I don’t need to ask whether he was rude - this is a typically rude response from him.

 

[prodigalson12]

I agree with the Pastor, kneeling on the floor is noting, pain wise as to what Christ experienced, so a little discomfort to remind us is not a bad thing. You should know though, if you kneel on a typical kneel er, over an hour, some of them that have only soft foam cushion, will eventually compress and you are then kneeling on a hard piece of wood with sharp edges…it can be very much more painful to withstand at that stage.

If you simply cannot handle kneeling on the floor, be it, acceptable medical reasons or such, don’t, or bring a pillow guys…

 

[Ganyssa]

There is a book available to be read on Google books, ‘Guidelines for the Building and Renovation of Churches’ published by the Archdiocese of Chicago in 2004. Under Liturgical Considerations on page 2, it says that kneelers are to be installed for everyone, whether seating is fixed or flexible. The link is:

books.google.com/books?id=jO24re0KC64C&printsec=frontcover&dq=archdiocese+of+chicago+kneelers+required&source=bl&ots=XJG2w0bNFR&sig=gvEii14v3lTqfsnyUJ25RfLGfQs&hl=en&ei=TkZxS7OlGJOUnQeanYWMCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=kneelers&f=false

 

[japhy]

I thought the directive from the Archdiocese of Chicago was that during a building or renovation (we would also be doing tuckpointing and new carpeting) we are now to have kneelers installed. He claims that this is not the case and that we don’t need them.

I can’t understand why a parish or diocese would need such a directive. (Well, yes, I can: it’s because people started removing kneelers and building churches without kneelers, illicitly.)

Kneeling is part of the Roman Rite. If you build a church without kneelers, you are discouraging people from kneeling (because most will think, “I’m not going to kneel on the floor, it’ll hurt too much”), and thus depriving them of part of their active participation in the Mass.

Your pastor is misinformed, at best.

 

[KateD]

Thank you for your responses.

Our pastor does not believe we should kneel on the floor; his opinion is that we don’t need to kneel at all, that standing is just as reverent. There are a small number who kneel on the floor, and I’ve been told that this is not to be done, that we are to be “in community” and that kneeling while the rest of the group is standing is akin to calling attention to oneself. So now I’m totally confused -

 

[bpbasilphx]

If there is an Archdiocesan directive that churches are to have kneelers, then the pastor should follow it.

THIS would be something to call the Chancery’s attention to.

 

[japhy]

his opinion is that we don’t need to kneel at all, that standing is just as reverent.

Standing can be reverent, yes – just ask the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox who stand for virtually the entire Divine Liturgy! But in the Roman Rite, there is a place for kneeling during the liturgy. To specifically discourage or prevent people from kneeling is a sign of pride and disobedience. Does this priest know better than the Church in this matter? Whether he knows it or not, he is subjecting his flock to his particular brand of liturgical elitism.

 

[JRKH]

If there is an Archdiocesan directive that churches are to have kneelers, then the pastor should follow it.

THIS would be something to call the Chancery’s attention to.

This may be the best advise.
Call down to the Chancery and ask them.

Peace
James

 

[ProVobis]

I live in the Chicago area and many churches have removed their kneelers. If I know I’m going to a church where you’re expected to kneel on the floor, then I’ll put on some knee pads and wear them under the pantlegs. Not the ideal solution, it’s still uncomfortable, but it’s reality.

 

[thomas_jd]

Yes.That is the request of Cardinal Francis George. Bring this to first to your deanary representative
As a last resort , mail your complaint to the Cardinal.

 

[jilly4ski]

I agree with the posters above.

Though as kneeling on the floor might not be reasonable. The OP lives in Chicago which gets snow and rain. When you come into church from outside, your shoes track in the dirt and wet, making it entirely unreasonable to kneel on the floor and get your pants or skirt wet and dirty.

 

[KateD]

Thank you for the advice. I did confirm with the Archdiocese today that the kneelers are required when renovating. Since speaking with the pastor has done nothing, and as this is just once more incident of him believing he knows better than the Church, I am preparing a letter to the local bishop asking that he oversee the project and alerting him to the fact that this pastor intends to do what he wants rather than what the Archdiocese requires. And I will certainly take the pastor’s advice - I will not contribute to it!

 

[JRKH]

Thank you for the advice. I did confirm with the Archdiocese today that the kneelers are required when renovating. Since speaking with the pastor has done nothing, and as this is just once more incident of him believing he knows better than the Church, I am preparing a letter to the local bishop asking that he oversee the project and alerting him to the fact that this pastor intends to do what he wants rather than what the Archdiocese requires. And I will certainly take the pastor’s advice - I will not contribute to it!

Thank you for your responses.

Our pastor does not believe we should kneel on the floor; his opinion is that we don’t need to kneel at all, that standing is just as reverent. There are a small number who kneel on the floor, and I’ve been told that this is not to be done, that we are to be “in community” and that kneeling while the rest of the group is standing is akin to calling attention to oneself. So now I’m totally confused -

Here is what I find interesting about the above.
This pastor wants everyone to stand to be , “In community”, however he seems to have no problem violating a directive from his superiors at the diocese. He apparently has no problem not being, “in community”, with a diocesen directive. hhmmmmm
Go figure.

Peace
James

 

[Callixtus]

Kneeling is required by the GIRM. You can look it up, but I think it’s during the entire consecration, and again at the Agnus Dei.

The important thing is to regard your pastor with charity and patience. The devil wants to get involved in this and turn it into a occasion for pride bitterness, arguing, and ill feelings. Be on the lookout against all that, of course. Pray for patience and humility.

I would contact the chancery about it as politely as possible, and relate to them your questions and concerns. I hope it goes well for you.

This all having being said, I privately suspect that the reluctance to kneel is highly ideological and part of a desire to deny the sacrificial element of the mass.

It’s really awfully unfortunate that the mass has become politicized. This has got to stop - Christians fighting with other Christians - just completely scandalous.

 

[Brendan]

Cardinal Dearden, who was Archbishop of Detroit through the 60’s and 70’s, was big into not having kneelers in parishes.

That all changed when Cardinal Szoka was installed. Since then, there has been a similar rule to what Chicago has; if a parish does a renovation, it must install kneelers if they are not already present.

Cardinal Maida continued that wise policy, as has Archbishop Vigneron.

The parish that my wife and I attended when we were first married did not have kneelers, but installed them when they did a parish expansion. There was a segment of the parish that objected, but the pastor said there was simply no choice, the bishop must be followed (yea Fr.)

 

[IrishAm]

Thank you for your responses.

Our pastor does not believe we should kneel on the floor; his opinion is that we don’t need to kneel at all, that standing is just as reverent. There are a small number who kneel on the floor, and I’ve been told that this is not to be done, that **we are to be “in community” **and that kneeling while the rest of the group is standing is akin to calling attention to oneself. So now I’m totally confused -

I have heard this argument now and again and have to admit, I just don’t get it. We are a universal Church Militant and an eternal Church Triumphant. While I may adore the family of worshipers with whom I may be sharing four walls and a roof at any given Mass – or may not know them at all – it seems terribly parochial to declare that they alone are the “community” with whom I should be in lockstep, whatever my particular posture. I can see if one was condemning the posture of another, or making a big scene of it, but, otherwise, I’ll worship God in community with others (seen and unseen) in whatever position I (or they) are in.

 

[KateD]

I have begun drafting my letter to the local bishop. This is quite disturbing to me now; I am hearing that several people have asked the pastor about kneelers and he has gotten angry and given many excuses for not having them. The excuses range from “people fall down when kneelers are used,” to “kneelers are a fire hazard,” to “they take up too much room.” All of these are just absurd and point to him wanting to do things his way rather than the Cardinal’s. This is really just the last straw and is an indication to me of his lack of obedience to the Cardinal and not taking his responsibility to teach the Faith seriously.

 

[aspirant]

Our pastor does not believe we should kneel on the floor

The rubrics of the Roman rite require kneeling. If there are no kneelers, then anyone who is able to kneel must kneel on the floor. According to the GIRM, exceptions are allowed when the congregation is “prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason,” but these are exceptions, not the norm.

The Holy See has actually made a ruling on this question:

Query: In some places kneelers have been taken out of the churches. Thus, the people can only stand or sit and this detracts from the reverence and adoration due to the Eucharist.

Reply: The appointments of a place of worship have some relationship to the customs of the particular locale. For example, in the East there are carpets; in the Roman basilicas, only since modern time, there are usually chairs without kneelers, so as to accommodate large crowds. There is nothing to prevent the faithful from kneeling on the floor to show their adoration, no matter how uncomfortable this may be. In cases where kneeling is not possible (see GIRM no. 21), a deep bow and a respectful bearing are signs of the reverence and adoration to be shown at the time of the consecration and Communion [Notitiae 14 (1978) 302-303, no. 4, DOL 1411 N. R2].

his opinion is that we don’t need to kneel at all

Sacrosanctum Concilium clearly says “no other person, not even a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.”

his opinion is that… standing is just as reverent.

Standing is reverent, but it is not allowed in the Roman rite rubrics for the consecration.

If you do plan to contact higher authorities about this, e.g. by writing a letter, I strongly recommend that you use these guidelines to follow established Church procedures, in particular the “Guidelines that apply to every step” and “Pastoral Procedures.”

 

[Holly3278]

A Catholic Church should have kneelers. That said, I don’t know about Chicago but I know that in all the parishes in my diocese, we do have kneelers. At least as far as I know we do have kneelers in all of our parishes.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I had a disturbing conversation with my pastor this weekend.
He is beginning a fundraising campaign, and one of the things he wants to buy at some point is new chairs. We do not have pews or kneelers. When I asked him after Mass whether the new chairs would have kneelers connected to them, he answered no and said they were not necessary.

I thought the directive from the Archdiocese of Chicago was that during a building or renovation (we would also be doing tuckpointing and new carpeting) we are now to have kneelers installed. He claims that this is not the case and that we don’t need them. After telling him that I wish we could keep the old chairs if we aren’t going to get the kneelers some of us having been waiting years to get, he snapped, “Then don’t contribute. I don’t care.”

Is he correct in that we don’t need the kneelers or that the Archdiocese does not have this directive? I don’t need to ask whether he was rude - this is a typically rude response from him.

In a sense he could be considered right. Kneelers and pews are not required. Kneeling is required durning certain parts of the Mass, sitting is not required at all.