Are Latins Heretics?

[ebed_melech]

Who says that defining them is not? Certainly a good deal of storm and stress could have been avoided were the issues of Monophosytism, Nestorianism, Arianism. Miaphsytism and the like were left as pious options on the table rather than understandings hammered out (and subsequently rejected by some, e.g. Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East) at the Ecumenical Councils of Chalcedon, Ephesus, Nicea and the like.

Really, if there is such minimal value in an effort to achieve clarity of understanding in matters of theology, why be bothered to have suffered all that to begin with?

I am sorry but this is just so much sterotypical charicature-making that is little less than polemic when offered without better reason or argument. The whole “bookworm scholastic west” vs. the “pious all holy East” is a little worn out and, at face value offers little more to discuss.

As prevalent as such cliches are, they ignore the reality of the Orthodox academic theologian in the East who works to create a systematic theological understanding and framework, or the Franciscan friar who leads the severly aesthetic life in poverty that is truly humbling and prayer that can be profoundly simple. To essential contrast the “dry rational west” with the “lively spirited east” is somewhere between slightly insulting and very disingenous. Such slogans or simply cliches are best left at the door.

Doesn’t everything? You speak often with certitude of “The Eastern thinking” or “The Eastern approach” or “in Eastern theology”. How do you personally choose which luminaries you will follow or find to be reliable?

A Simple Sinner,

Your post here is simply excellent. One can in no way claim to refer to an “Eastern” perspective or a 'Western" perspective on most issues as if they existed as uniform and hermetically sealed realities. The Christian East is multiform (just consider the different trajectories of the Greek and Syriac theological streams for instance) as is the Christian West. One may refer to general tendencies, but ultimately there is rich diversity of approach on all sides.

I think our categories often make it easy for us to label without taking the time to fully appreciate what they mean.

God bless,

Gordo

 

[mardukm]

Huh? Purgatory is a dogma. What are the non dogmatic descriptions - Toll houses?

Aside from brother Aramis’ observation regarding “place,” other NON-dogmatic (theologoumena) points about Purgatory:

• whether there is a literal fire, spiritual fire, or figurative fire in Purgatory
• whether the purification is a punishment or a painful cleansing.
• whether the pain in Purgatory is the pain of loss, pain of longing, or pain akin to physical burning.
• whether Purgatory is a middle state between heaven and hell, or actually a part of heaven.
• how much “time” is spent in this state.

Blessings

 

[mardukm]

Who says that defining them is not? Certainly a good deal of storm and stress could have been avoided were the issues of Monophosytism, Nestorianism, Arianism. Miaphsytism and the like were left as pious options on the table rather than understandings hammered out (and subsequently rejected by some, e.g. Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East) at the Ecumenical Councils of Chalcedon, Ephesus, Nicea and the like.

Really, if there is such minimal value in an effort to achieve clarity of understanding in matters of theology, why be bothered to have suffered all that to begin with?

I am sorry but this is just so much sterotypical charicature-making that is little less than polemic when offered without better reason or argument. The whole “bookworm scholastic west” vs. the “pious all holy East” is a little worn out and, at face value offers little more to discuss.

As prevalent as such cliches are, they ignore the reality of the Orthodox academic theologian in the East who works to create a systematic theological understanding and framework, or the Franciscan friar who leads the severly aesthetic life in poverty that is truly humbling and prayer that can be profoundly simple. To essential contrast the “dry rational west” with the “lively spirited east” is somewhere between slightly insulting and very disingenous. Such slogans or simply cliches are best left at the door.

Doesn’t everything? You speak often with certitude of “The Eastern thinking” or “The Eastern approach” or “in Eastern theology”. How do you personally choose which luminaries you will follow or find to be reliable?

Yes, excellent!

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Aramis]

Doesn’t everything? You speak often with certitude of “The Eastern thinking” or “The Eastern approach” or “in Eastern theology”.

WHich brings up another key point:

The “East” in the context typically used refers almost exclusively to the Byzantine…

The other 4-6 Rites (depending upon counting method) of the East have additional theological traditions, which while vaguely more similar to Byzantine than to Roman, also are diverse and strong traditions.

Lumping all the “East” into one pot is a reduction to the absurd.

Byzantine Theology is almost as diverse as the west, with some great overarching differences in what’s mainstream. But most Roman theologumenia have Orthodox and ByzC adherents, and most of the Byzantine have Roman adherents.

One of the largest theological trends in the Byzantine tradition has expression in many subtle ways: the role of the synod is directly related to the theology about the episcopacy. In the west it tends to be consultative & deliberative; in the Byzantine paradigm, it is far more of a governing role. Even in the EC churches, this theologumenia affects governance of the church.

 

[eddy1]

Demsey,

Just a few points of clarification.
…

1. Eastern Catholics believe the same faith as the Pope of Rome and any other Catholic Christian. Unlike some Westerners, however, we do not “hang on his every word” as if he is the only voice of the Church to speak. We listen with a heart full of openness and prayer, and especially when he speaks as the teacher of all Christians and the head of the college of Bishops, with thoughtful assent. We also listen to our Patriarchs and hierarchs, since their voice is one in the great symphony of Catholic pastoral teaching and they have, by virtue of their headship, direct pastoral responsibility for us. That is the nature of our communion with Rome.

Finally, in keeping with the title of this thread, no Eastern Catholic can legitimately hold that the Latin Catholic Church is in formal or material heresy. That said, it does not mean that the teachings - even official dogmatic statements - are above critique or clarification. Very often, there are aspects of those Catholic teachings that are one sided and weak in “catholic” content. Even those who claim to be Eastern Catholic and hold to the view that the additional councils following the first seven were simply Western synods and not ecumenical councils (I do not hold to that position, BTW) are not asserting that the Latin Church is in heresy.

God bless!

In ICXC,

Gordo

I like your answer.
The Union of Brest says “We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church” (ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TREATBR.HTM) which seems a fine attitude. One can laud Eastern Catholics for the zeal of their desire to claim to their authentic traditions, as the Church calls for, and help them to read what their Fathers taught, so they avoid the error of denouncing truth. I also like the introductory line in the Union “… there is a quarrel between the Romans and Greeks about the procession of the Holy Spirit, which greatly impede(s) unity really for no other reason than that we do not wish to understand one another…”.

 

[mardukm]

WHich brings up another key point:

The “East” in the context typically used refers almost exclusively to the Byzantine…

The other 4-6 Rites (depending upon counting method) of the East have additional theological traditions, which while vaguely more similar to Byzantine than to Roman, also are diverse and strong traditions.

Lumping all the “East” into one pot is a reduction to the absurd.

As an Oriental, I thank you for this observation.

Blessings