Are lawsuits unchristian?

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AlanFromWichita:
Splitting hairs, perhaps, but I don’t think it is the job of law enforcement to protect the people from evil. Their job is to reduce criminal activity spawned by that evil, and to help reduce or eliminate some of the temporal damage caused by those sins.
This is exactly my point, Alan. The government cannot, nor is it supposed to, protect people from evil. However, we as Christians have a responsibility to look after the welfare of our fellow man. It is in this regard that we ought to stand up and confront the dangers one by one, and use legal means if necessary. Please do not infer from this that I mean we ought to sue as a first response to any problem. Indeed, that method of dealing with something is highly imperfect (as pointed out by springbreeze). There are many times actions we can take before this becomes necessary.

In this case, I have attempted 1) to file a formal complaint with the hospital, and 2) to notify the State Board that disciplinary action is in order. In both of these cases the tale of my plight has fallen upon deaf ears. Having no other (apparent) alternative, I turn to the legal system. As I stated in my original post, the outcome is far from certain. But it is the right thing to do. Of this I have no doubt.

Bottom line: inasmuch as we do not stand by while others are harmed, we must not allow the harmful agent to continue harming if we have legal and just means to stop it. This is apart from the issue of a faith deficit.
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure:
Bottom line: inasmuch as we do not stand by while others are harmed, we must not allow the harmful agent to continue harming if we have legal and just means to stop it. This is apart from the issue of a faith deficit.
We seem to agree on the important factors here.

We think it is good, for whatever reason, to employ reasonable wordly designed and implemented means to control damage done by evil.

In your particular situation, I have no concern whatsoever that what you are doing is not only OK, but something I would wholeheartedly support. In fact, when I am wronged, my passive-aggressive mind tends to cook up fairly creative and grandiose penalties that make what you are doing look like nothing in comparison. Part of the way I got over my desire to hurt people who were hurting others was based on my allowing myself to think up terrible penalties for the other person, then allowing myself to feel pity on them for what I could have done, or what God might do and therefore lose interest in hurting them anymore.

Whether turning to worldly authorities rather than relying strictly on God and faith to correct this evil is a matter of “weak faith” depends, in part, on what you consider a “lack of faith.”

I have a pretty strict definition of lack of faith, and am quick to confess that I do lack faith. In a way, works to use worldly means to curb a spiritual problem constitute a lack of faith. In another way, those same works are themselves an act of faith. I have these various definitions so that I can run a proposed action by various points of view when considering to undertake it. I like to examine things from a strictly faith-only view that accepts anything that comes and evil is met only with prayer and turning a cheek, and where death and destruction are not mine to stop, to an entirely worldly view of “who are we going to have to kill (not seriously to consider of course) to make this thing stop.” That intellectual exercise usually opens up alternative ideas about how to handle situations, and also how to forgive and work with other people who themselves may be using any one of those points of view in their own justifications.

I’ve really enjoyed this thread. It seems we agree on most everything that’s important. It seems the differences if we have any are mostly rhetorical. You don’t need me to fix you; if I thought otherwise than I would be lacking in faith! That is, basing “faith” on the idea that God needs something done and if I don’t live long enough and pull off the job sufficiently then somehow God will be lacking. See what I mean? On the same basis, my faith can lead me to act to enable God’s plan. I just have to remember not to think that my carcass is so important that if I don’t get this or that done, hell will break loose. I’m just about to talk myself into agreeing with you that worldly-based works may not signal a lack of faith, but an instance of faithful obedience. :hmmm:

That means I’d better stop thinking before I end up agreeing with you wholesale. I can’t do that, because then our contention might cease and it could get all sappy and stuff. 😛

Peace,
Alan
 
Surf(name removed by moderator)ure, oh that makes me so mad!!! I have to say I am for natural birth in the first place, but when I hear stories like this it really gets me.

There are other things he could’ve tried besides the forceps or a c-section!!! There are SO MANY alternative things that a midwife would’ve done that would’ve got that baby out of there in no time, without hurting you! Of that I am 99.9% positive. I bet you were lieing flat on your back the whole time, oh that ticks me off!!!

During my daughter’s birth the doctors and nurses were clueless about what to do to get my baby to move down to the birth canal, and finally, after hours and tons of medication, one nurse had the sense to tell me to lie on my left side, and boom, within minutes she was coming out!

The doctors are SO IGNORANT of things like this it is literally unbelievable.

But just for one second think about the doctor in this situation, I know that is REALLY hard when you are in a lot of turmoil and pain and probably a great deal of resentment, too. What happens to him and his family if you win and he loses everything? Will he go out of business? Lose his license? Does he have children? He probably doesn’t have any other job skills other than being a doctor to go from…so maybe he does deserve it, but if you are suing HIM, just remember that you’ve probably made an enemy for life, and you’ve probably just ruined his life and his family’s as well. If you think that is justifiable so that you can have the money you need to take care of your daughter, by all means go right ahead.

I can’t tell you how sorry I feel for you and your baby, that is really awful. But first, don’t assume a c-section would’ve solved it. I really think it was God’s will. You don’t know that you or your baby might’ve died in the OR. Nothing happens that God doesn’t know about, and this baby is a blessing and a test for you and your family.

I know what this doctor did was unforgiveable to you. It is NOT easy to do what the Bible says. It is down right impossible, and yet that’s what we’re called to do, to FORGIVE unforgiveable things.

I’m sorry I cannot say this without sounding a little callous to you. I’ve really tried, but I’m a big believer in having to do exactly what the Bible says.

The Bible doesn’t just say that you shouldn’t sue other Christians, it says that it shows a bad example when you take someone before a heathen court… I will have to look into that again, but there are many other passages about turning the other cheek. So you can do things the way that is fair to you, or you can do it Jesus’s way, but I don’t see how you can do both.
 
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Christian4life:
I know what this doctor did was unforgiveable to you. It is NOT easy to do what the Bible says. It is down right impossible, and yet that’s what we’re called to do, to FORGIVE unforgiveable things.

I’m sorry I cannot say this without sounding a little callous to you. I’ve really tried, but I’m a big believer in having to do exactly what the Bible says.
I agree with you completely as far as the spiritual aspect, with one exception.

We all agree the doctor is to be forgiven, and not to be Thought Badly Of.

On the basis of Likely Future Harm, we don’t know whether it would be worse to keep this doctor in practice and possibly harm others, or to take a chance at harming the doctor and his family financially and professionally.

IOW, depending on the details, I could probably argue for or against filing a lawsuit against the doctor, and either side from a pro-life standpoint. You really don’t know the future effects of you actions exactly, but you know your heart and what you are trying to accomplish.

Could the lawsuit actually become the spiritual medicine that begins the doctor’s life anew? If he was so well off financially, doesn’t he have enough money saved to last a while?

In other words, the morality of whether to file the lawsuit is one issue. Whether such a suit would be ultimately good or bad for the souls of the doctor and family, is completely up to God, and not predictable with certainty. Gosh, you could chop his hands off and who knows, he may become some famous whatever. You just don’t know, so you can’t presuppose that we are hurting the doctor by bringing him to worldly discipline.

There. Five cents worth of ideas package in six dollars of verbage.

Alan
 
I’m a lawyer but I hate lawsuits. We get blamed for them but I tell ya, there are people who come into your office who are hooked on those things. They go lawyer-shopping with some great scheme to sue the government and get mad when you don’t take the case and then shop it somewhere else. Usually they have been involved in a case already, say a workers’ comp claim, got a nice settlement, and thought yeah that’s the ticket! And become serial-suers. I think they like the prospect of a big pot of cash and also all the attention they get from the lawyers. Beats working!

One couple I know had a successful suit against the dept of Defense over some military service issue, then had the good fortune to live on the periphery of a toxic chemical spill. They claimed their wonderful rural property was worthless, and that the chemicals had made them sick, so they had to do this whole move-out and play-sick charade for a few years until they got their settlement. Then they moved back in and everything is fine now.

That said, I think it’s important to remember that lawsuits evolved as an alternative to family feuds, violence and riot. It was a great step forward when the Lord of the Manor decided to take his grievance to King’s Bench rather than send his knights to burn down his neighbor’s hall.
 
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caroljm36:
I’m a lawyer but I hate lawsuits. We get blamed for them but I tell ya, there are people who come into your office who are hooked on those things. They go lawyer-shopping with some great scheme to sue the government and get mad when you don’t take the case and then shop it somewhere else. Usually they have been involved in a case already, say a workers’ comp claim, got a nice settlement, and thought yeah that’s the ticket! And become serial-suers. I think they like the prospect of a big pot of cash and also all the attention they get from the lawyers. Beats working!

One couple I know had a successful suit against the dept of Defense over some military service issue, then had the good fortune to live on the periphery of a toxic chemical spill. They claimed their wonderful rural property was worthless, and that the chemicals had made them sick, so they had to do this whole move-out and play-sick charade for a few years until they got their settlement. Then they moved back in and everything is fine now.

That said, I think it’s important to remember that lawsuits evolved as an alternative to family feuds, violence and riot. It was a great step forward when the Lord of the Manor decided to take his grievance to King’s Bench rather than send his knights to burn down his neighbor’s hall.
Dear friend

Great post! You sound like a battle weary lawyer. I bailed out after 6 years of the whole charade before fully qualifying! The more I saw of the game the more I saw it wasn’t for sheep it was for wolves!

Don’t you know it’s always the lawyers fault?😉 :rotfl:

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Christian,

Thank you for your empathy on this subject. I’m still holding out on the “lawsuits are inherently evil” stance until I see actual documentation from the Church. We all know that Sacred Scripture is clear on some issues and quite foggy on others. Since there seems to be quite a problem of interpretation on this one, I’d prefer to get the Church’s official interpretation. There may be other interpretations for the verses listed (particularly about “heathen” courts), and there quite possibly are other applicable verses that have not even been submitted here.

So while I understand the position, I disagree barring full interpretation of Scripture. I also still firmly believe that it would be sin in this case to allow a doctor who is practicing dangerously to continue to do so.
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure:
So while I understand the position, I disagree barring full interpretation of Scripture. I also still firmly believe that it would be sin in this case to allow a doctor who is practicing dangerously to continue to do so.
This certainly is totally acceptable, as far as I’m concerned, to think this way about your role and strategy in dealing with the world. God gave us brains to apply to a situation and do what we believe to be best.

This brings me back to the “weak faith” comments I made. Rhetorically, if you suspect or even know that the Church has a particular rule or guideline, and you take the other choice, that can really be a sign of anything from weak faith to strong faith, depending on how you look at it. Weak, because I am not completely trusting the Church and God to curb evil according to her rules without my having to resort to worldly compulsion against a sinner; strong, because I am using my knowledge of fallen humanity, being a sinner myself, to create effective strategy at dealing with other sinners in this world.

Maybe that’s partly why I’m bipolar. I can almost choose which side I want to be on, and then construct an argument to support that side, based on things that sound all faithful and moral. :o That’s one of the reasons I try not to judge – because it would be so easy for me to be wrong!

Alan
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure:
Christian,

Thank you for your empathy on this subject. I’m still holding out on the “lawsuits are inherently evil” stance until I see actual documentation from the Church. We all know that Sacred Scripture is clear on some issues and quite foggy on others. Since there seems to be quite a problem of interpretation on this one, I’d prefer to get the Church’s official interpretation. There may be other interpretations for the verses listed (particularly about “heathen” courts), and there quite possibly are other applicable verses that have not even been submitted here.

So while I understand the position, I disagree barring full interpretation of Scripture. I also still firmly believe that it would be sin in this case to allow a doctor who is practicing dangerously to continue to do so.
Good…I was afraid you’d be mad at me because of my last post! I guess just keep praying about it and do what seems right to you. I can’t say that I am for lawsuits because I feel the Bible is pretty clear about not suing CHRISTIANS, as for others I am not 100% sure, but there are a lot of verses about turning the other cheek and none that I could find about demanding justice from a court…but perhaps praying to God for justice like David did would be right?

For another thing my husband and I were thinking of starting a birthing center until the subject of liability came up. Sometimes things happen and babies can die or get hurt even with the best of care, and even though my husband would have no say in the actual delivery, the center could still get sued, and we might lose everything. But this is our dream to start one, and my husband wants to go through with it anyway because he truly believes in this goal.

I do think a lot of doctors are very ignorant about natural ways to get babies out, though, and it isn’t fair because they aren’t taught that in medical school. Those are optional classes last time I checked even though there are many chiropractic procedures that can turn babies, as well as move them down. I wish more people knew this!
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Maybe that’s partly why I’m bipolar. I can almost choose which side I want to be on, and then construct an argument to support that side, based on things that sound all faithful and moral. :o That’s one of the reasons I try not to judge – because it would be so easy for me to be wrong!

Alan
Alan, have you ever thought about going into the legal profession? :rotfl:

Love ya 😉

Sur
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure:
Alan, have you ever thought about going into the legal profession? :rotfl:

Love ya 😉

Sur
Yes, actually! I wish somebody would give me a scholarship, so I could go to work acquitting all these scum jobs who are loved by Christ and sometimes do make an occasional “unfortunate” choice. :twocents:

Alan
 
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Christian4life:
For another thing my husband and I were thinking of starting a birthing center until the subject of liability came up. Sometimes things happen and babies can die or get hurt even with the best of care, and even though my husband would have no say in the actual delivery, the center could still get sued, and we might lose everything. But this is our dream to start one, and my husband wants to go through with it anyway because he truly believes in this goal.
Ooh, yeah. These days you certainly want to be financially covered. Our family doctor quit delivering after our first, and referred us to an OB/GYN who delivered his (oiur family doc’s) own children – the OB/GYN was GREAT, and was a devout Catholic to boot.

Several years ago I read an article about liability suits, and I think they supposedly found that doctors who smile more around their patients have lower malpractice suit rates.

Alan
 
Just a minor point;

For those saying that we should not sue Christians only, you are forgetting those other scriptures, you know, the “be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect”.

According to the full “gospel” as it were, you should not sue Christians, but you also are to treat even your enemies as you would your loved ones. Therefore, you cannot suggest that because they are not what you consider to be christian, that you have full consent to treat them negatively. The gospel, even by Christ’s own words, demands that you treat everyone the same, Christian or not.

So, some other justification is needed than “they aren’t Christian in my opinion, therefore they are fair game.” In any event, I would suggest a lot of prayer and consideration first.
 
I think lawsuits completely contradict God’s teaching on Forgiveness. How can you forgive someone if you are trying to take their money at the same time?

For something like damaged property, I can see why people would want to sue but if someone has died and the family is looking for money, it’s almost as if they are putting a price on the dead’s life. I believe that is completely wrong.
 
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sarcophagus:
I think lawsuits completely contradict God’s teaching on Forgiveness. How can you forgive someone if you are trying to take their money at the same time?

For something like damaged property, I can see why people would want to sue but if someone has died and the family is looking for money, it’s almost as if they are putting a price on the dead’s life. I believe that is completely wrong.
Have you not read any of my previous posts? It isn’t about merely getting compensation for a loss. Many times it’s much more complicated and involved than that, such as seeing to it that one who is doing damage can no longer do damage, or making sure the future medical expenses of an injured person are covered when someone else is truly at fault.

Forgiveness has very little to do with it when a person has caused you to lose your livelihood, or to go into extreme debt, or has stolen your freedom to move about or speak. You can forgive the wrong, but you in some cases must see that justice is done.

Remember that God is not only a God of mercy, but one of justice.
 
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BJRumph:
Just a minor point;

For those saying that we should not sue Christians only, you are forgetting those other scriptures, you know, the “be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect”.

According to the full “gospel” as it were, you should not sue Christians, but you also are to treat even your enemies as you would your loved ones. Therefore, you cannot suggest that because they are not what you consider to be christian, that you have full consent to treat them negatively. The gospel, even by Christ’s own words, demands that you treat everyone the same, Christian or not.

So, some other justification is needed than “they aren’t Christian in my opinion, therefore they are fair game.” In any event, I would suggest a lot of prayer and consideration first.
There is so much emphasis on forgiveness and treating people kindly, that I would like to know what all of the anti-lawsuit posters think about repaying debts. Say a person owes you $50,000, and without that money your family will lose its home. Should we “turn the other cheek” and forgive the debt because we are told in certain places in Scripture to do this? Or should we seek payment of the debt because this is justice?
 
Sorry, but I find your example flawed. “Turning the other cheek” is irrelevant; “Give them what they ask, and do not expect them to return it”, in your example, is. Your example is also irrelevant to the question at hand. And the scripture os also very clear as to what you should do in your example.

Besides, these are not just mere “scriptures”, these are the only “direct” teachings we have of Jesus himself. This is not about some touchy-feely feel good thing, this is radical social re-engineering that Christ is calling us all to. It is also not the guess or development of later fathers and theologians. It is about putting you life in God’s hands; not the Lawyers’, Governments’, or Society’s.

Do you think modern America has a more litigious society than Pharasaic Judaism? Are Christs’ words only important when they back us up, or at Mass? Is Christ’s teachings regarding a different legal system make them exempt from our own?

While I cannot answer to others’ choices, and have no desire to “judge” them, I can say that when my first child was damaged due to an unecessarily stressful birth, due to the less than stellar performance of the medical personnel on hand, we made the choice NOT to sue after prayerful consideration. Even under the biblical Law of Justice, only an eye can pay for eye; should we give the children of these persons a labotomy to appease Justice? The doctor perhaps?

Will suing the errant docter really protect others? not in this world; they just pay their damages, and take it out on their remaining patients. If the well dries up, they relocate. Perhaps it is just my negative opinion of people, or just my personal experiences; but when you punish someone more interested in money than others by taking away their money, you do not correct their behaviors, but rather give them cause to increase them as they become desperate. Will this “hypothetical” case discussed on this thread actually remove the doctor/nurse in question liscense to practice? or is this a hopeful response to taking him to the proverbial cleaners? Is yours the only known case, or has this person a history of negligence? Has pursuing a criminal case been looked at? Once the complication was discovered, did they respond accordingly, or is it just the natural distress of the parents that insists that more could have been done?

Don’t mistake me for a touchy-feely, love-em-all-with-puppies type; in general, my “Natural Man” is the “Kill 'em all and let God sort them out” type. However, I do try and listen occasionaly to what Christ has to say on the matter. :o Such dichotomy is frustrating to be sure, but when I get moments of clarity through the grace of God, I stick to them. Though my wife did not always agree, I do not now, nor have since it happened, regretted or reconsidered the descision to not sue. Neither was the descision an isolated one.

However, God each calls us to specfic tasks, some of which do not meet with the general rule; thus in this hypothetical case below, I find it entirely possible that the parents are called to sue, in fulfillment to God’s own design; therefore I cannot really say they are “wrong” to chose as they have, but only that when I was in a similar situation, I was “told” to do something different. I can also opine, as this thread has asked, as to what the general “rule” is on the subject. I have done so.
 
BJ, I’m sorry you find my example flawed. That doesn’t mean that it actually is. I continue to respectfully disagree, barring any teaching from the Magisterium that would support your argument.

I feel so strongly on this issue that I will not accept the opinions of the laity.
 
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BJRumph:
Just a minor point;

For those saying that we should not sue Christians only, you are forgetting those other scriptures, you know, the “be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect”.

According to the full “gospel” as it were, you should not sue Christians, but you also are to treat even your enemies as you would your loved ones. Therefore, you cannot suggest that because they are not what you consider to be christian, that you have full consent to treat them negatively. The gospel, even by Christ’s own words, demands that you treat everyone the same, Christian or not.

So, some other justification is needed than “they aren’t Christian in my opinion, therefore they are fair game.” In any event, I would suggest a lot of prayer and consideration first.
Even if it was Saddam and/or Osama Bin Laden?
 
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777:
Even if it was Saddam and/or Osama Bin Laden?
Our battle is not with flesh and blood, but with spirits.

People can become evil, in temptation, they do evil and they make evil acts thereby they live evil and in doing so they become evil.

We don’t pursue the person; as the person is made in God’s Image, they bear the face of Christ Jesus. We pursue the evil, the evil act, we stamp down on what is evil. If a person choses evil over good, then we forgive the person, but we do not ever condone the evil. We name the evil. We bring evil to justice and in doing so we are merciful to the person but we always hold up what is evil for all to see that it is evil…however we always forgive the person made in the Likeness and Image of God.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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