Are Lay Ministries hurting priestly vocations

[CradleCath]

An article decrying the lack of priestly vocations in San Diego says:

Father Feinberg believes that reversing low priestly morale would encourage vocations. “Promote the dignity of the priesthood and stop undermining the authority of the clergy. I would also curtail many of the lay ministries that are replacing priests – things in the parish such as visiting the sick, instructing the converts, and administering the sacraments. If you undermine the clergy, how can you promote the priesthood?”

sdnewsnotes.com/ed/articles/2006/0604rk.htm

I’m not a fan of all of the lay ministries that one finds in the Church today. Before Vatican II & the mass exodus of our clergy & religious, these duties were performed by the priests themselves. At that time, my own parish had 3 priests &, usually in addition to those, there were Seminarians that came to help during Holy Week, etc.

I have also noticed that some (not all) who embrace these ministries are totally against the Latin Mass. This is just my “take” on the situation. Can some of you share with me how you feel about Vocation Directors, parish secretaries, RICA educators, EEM’s, Liturgists, etc., etc. who are paid employees (volunteers) of the Church. And what do you think that does to vocations?? I remember well how relieved I was when my Father was dying & the Pastor of the Church came for the Last Rites. He, at age 76, would not have felt comfortable if they had sent an EEM & he was simply administered the Eucharist this often happens.

 

[puzzleannie]

precisely who will Fr. F. be sending into parishes to carry out this work until the priest shortage is alleviated in places where it is a reality?

 

[barb_finnegan]

Are lay ‘ministries’ hurting priestly vocations-I say a loud YES!

I don’t like the emasculation of the priesthood. I also don’t like the term ‘ministry’ tacked onto everything that goes on in a parish. I used to be a lector [that’s called a ‘ministry’], and sang both in choirs and alone as a cantor ‘music ministry’, it’s called now ]. I now go to the TLM, where there is no blurring of the distinction [and there IS a distinction, in spite of what the liberals say] between the clergy and the laity. I decided that, in going to the TLM, I wouldn’t be an accessory to the destruction of the priesthood.

Without priests, we wouldn’t have the Mass or the sacraments. Lay ‘ministers’ CANNOT say Mass, or confer the sacraments!

 

[Cluny]

What I say here is NOT to be taken as a diminution of the priestly or religious vocation, but don’t forget that the Laity–LAOS–is an order in the Church as well, to which one is admitted by Baptism and Confirmation.

And there is more to the vocation of the laity than being passive or simply praying, paying, and obeying.

The duty of the clergy is to prepare the holy people of God for ministry.

 

[Sir_Anthony]

well, I think it depend on what kind of ministry, like I don’t think an adult bible study led by laypeople hurt vocations. But I do think EMs and the emphasis on lay “participation” helped deconstruct what is the purpose of the sacrificial priesthood. Today, many priests talk about the priesthood of the believers and never about the need and importance of the priestly life (let alone private devotions, family prayer, the liturgical readings and other things to help strengthen faith, this past sundays homily at my Church was a Deacon reading from Chicken Soup for the Soul). And you throw this on top of a culture where sex is expected and celibacy is lambasted as foolish, medieval and silly, you can expect priestly vocations to drop.

 

[EasterJoy]

An article decrying the lack of priestly vocations in San Diego says:

Father Feinberg believes that reversing low priestly morale would encourage vocations. “Promote the dignity of the priesthood and stop undermining the authority of the clergy. I would also curtail many of the lay ministries that are replacing priests – things in the parish such as visiting the sick, instructing the converts, and administering the sacraments. If you undermine the clergy, how can you promote the priesthood?”

sdnewsnotes.com/ed/articles/2006/0604rk.htm

I’m not a fan of all of the lay ministries that one finds in the Church today. Before Vatican II & the mass exodus of our clergy & religious, these duties were performed by the priests themselves. At that time, my own parish had 3 priests &, usually in addition to those, there were Seminarians that came to help during Holy Week, etc.

I have also noticed that some (not all) who embrace these ministries are totally against the Latin Mass. This is just my “take” on the situation. Can some of you share with me how you feel about Vocation Directors, parish secretaries, RICA educators, EEM’s, Liturgists, etc., etc. who are paid employees (volunteers) of the Church. And what do you think that does to vocations?? I remember well how relieved I was when my Father was dying & the Pastor of the Church came for the Last Rites. He, at age 76, would not have felt comfortable if they had sent an EEM & he was simply administered the Eucharist this often happens.

I fail to see how driving the few clergy we have into utter exhaustion is going to improve their morale. There are not enough priests to get all this work done by themselves.

As far as “some (not all) who embrace these ministries are totally against the Latin Mass”, that cuts both ways. There is a lot of work to be done, and those who do it get kind of tired of hearing “why isn’t the pastor doing this?” Because the pastor is only one man and there are only 24 hours in a day, that’s why. If you have these priests you want hidden in a closet somewhere, by all means, cough them up.

If you think it is hard to get a priest for Last Rites now, try making your pastor go back to making out the budgets (secretarial staff and finance council), reviewing all the catechesis materials and riding herd on all his catechists personally (director of religious education), doing all the hiring, firing, and decision-making alone (pastoral council), preparing materials and teaching all the adult converts himself (RCIA meetings), doing all the baptismal and marriage preparations personally, making all the hospital and nursing home visits personally, and so on. These are labors that the laity are perfectly able to do, and called to do by virtue of our baptism. Just because we call him “Father” doesn’t make us into a bunch of children. The idea is that he, in his unique role in providing the sacraments and ultimate authority in the parish–and the pastor should be the vicar of the bishop’s ultimate authority in a diocese–gives himself totally over to his call in order that we may all give ourselves totally over to our own calls. There is nothing that kills a priest’s morale like a bunch of people who yammer “Father, Father” but who are far more interested in dictating what Father should be doing than paying attention to what they should be doing.

So I will play devil’s advocate on myself: is it a problem that some people seem to find the work previously done only by clergy more glamorous than other work that needs to be done? Yes, it is. The first thing that the pastor should be freed of is the menial and secular kind of work. It is great if he wants to do some as a way of leading by example, of course he should be consulted as to what needs doing, but by and large the execution should not be his worry. The laity should see to it that the material needs of the parish are met. We shouldn’t be out looking to hire religious professionals if Father is still having to clear the gutters of leaves and manage the fundraisers himself.

When a pastor has no worries about the secular details in his parish, when there are no parish intrigues, squabbles, in-fighting, or power struggles, when an attitude of mutual charity governs the settlement of difference in opinion between parishioners, when parishioners are primarily concerned with their own pursuit of holiness and what they can do for others, rather than the other way around, that is a great help to his morale. Whether liberal or conservative, priests would fight over the chance to get to serve in a parish like that. So we need to ask ourselves: If everyone in the parish were like me, is that the kind of parish my pastor would have? What can I do to help make our parish more like that?

Do you want to encourage vocations and encourage and affirm the priests and religious in your diocese? Find out if there is a chapter of Serra club near you, and do something about it.
serraus.org/serra_usa/serra_clubs_diocese.htm

 

[EEmperor]

I agree that certain things can only be done by priests or deacons, but I do not agree with the opinions expressed in this thread.
I mean, sure, Mass should be done by a priest, visiting the sick, etc. but the laity is also very important in the Church.
While I would love to see more priests around, I would also love if more catholics took some time and joined different catholic groups, ministries or whatever.

In my opinion, being a catholic is more than just going to Mass every week and living the catholic lifestyle. It’s also about helping others as much as possible and convenient. Everyone who can, should take part in projects such as Youth Groups, RCIA, etc. since it offers a means for the parish to come closer together, and for people to devote more time to God.

 

[barb_finnegan]

I agree that certain things can only be done by priests or deacons, but I do not agree with the opinions expressed in this thread.
I mean, sure, Mass should be done by a priest, visiting the sick, etc. but the laity is also very important in the Church.
While I would love to see more priests around, I would also love if more catholics took some time and joined different catholic groups, ministries or whatever.

In my opinion, being a catholic is more than just going to Mass every week and living the catholic lifestyle. It’s also about helping others as much as possible and convenient. Everyone who can, should take part in projects such as Youth Groups, RCIA, etc. since it offers a means for the parish to come closer together, and for people to devote more time to God.

What if you’re not a ‘group person’ ?

I was part of Church groups in the past [Third Orders (2), prayer groups], but there’s too much in the way of ‘power and ego trips’. I was tired of all the infighting. Why is it that people who in groups that want to do good are always the ones divided and fighting, and the ones who promote evil [like Planned Parenthood and the homosexual lobby] are the ones who are strong and united?

And why does everything have to be called a MINISTRY? We lay people are NOT MINISTERS! We’re NOT ORDAINED! (Yeah, I know I’ll probably read stuff about the 'priesthood of the baptized"-yada yada yada- )

It’s very aggravating…off my rant.

 

[bkovacs]

Yes!!. They are hurting not only priestly vocations, but nuns as well. Especially EMHCs, Altar girls, Lay Ministers, etcc. But the modern day Catholic church doesn’t care. They still continue to be present, and will until Rome says no more… Laity can do other things in the Church, like singing in a choir, fund raising, teaching, but not preaching etc. And yes I will blame this all on the period after Vatican 2. Bugnini and his culprits!.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

I fail to see how driving the few clergy we have into utter exhaustion is going to improve their morale. There are not enough priests to get all this work done by themselves.

As far as “some (not all) who embrace these ministries are totally against the Latin Mass”, that cuts both ways. There is a lot of work to be done, and those who do it get kind of tired of hearing “why isn’t the pastor doing this?” Because the pastor is only one man and there are only 24 hours in a day, that’s why. If you have these priests you want hidden in a closet somewhere, by all means, cough them up.

If you think it is hard to get a priest for Last Rites now, try making your pastor go back to making out the budgets (secretarial staff and finance council), reviewing all the catechesis materials and riding herd on all his catechists personally (director of religious education), doing all the hiring, firing, and decision-making alone (pastoral council), preparing materials and teaching all the adult converts himself (RCIA meetings), doing all the baptismal and marriage preparations personally, making all the hospital and nursing home visits personally, and so on. These are labors that the laity are perfectly able to do, and called to do by virtue of our baptism. Just because we call him “Father” doesn’t make us into a bunch of children. The idea is that he, in his unique role in providing the sacraments and ultimate authority in the parish–and the pastor should be the vicar of the bishop’s ultimate authority in a diocese–gives himself totally over to his call in order that we may all give ourselves totally over to our own calls. There is nothing that kills a priest’s morale like a bunch of people who yammer “Father, Father” but who are far more interested in dictating what Father should be doing than paying attention to what they should be doing.

So I will play devil’s advocate on myself: is it a problem that some people seem to find the work previously done only by clergy more glamorous than other work that needs to be done? Yes, it is. The first thing that the pastor should be freed of is the menial and secular kind of work. It is great if he wants to do some as a way of leading by example, of course he should be consulted as to what needs doing, but by and large the execution should not be his worry. The laity should see to it that the material needs of the parish are met. We shouldn’t be out looking to hire religious professionals if Father is still having to clear the gutters of leaves and manage the fundraisers himself.

When a pastor has no worries about the secular details in his parish, when there are no parish intrigues, squabbles, in-fighting, or power struggles, when an attitude of mutual charity governs the settlement of difference in opinion between parishioners, when parishioners are primarily concerned with their own pursuit of holiness and what they can do for others, rather than the other way around, that is a great help to his morale. Whether liberal or conservative, priests would fight over the chance to get to serve in a parish like that. So we need to ask ourselves: If everyone in the parish were like me, is that the kind of parish my pastor would have? What can I do to help make our parish more like that?

Do you want to encourage vocations and encourage and affirm the priests and religious in your diocese? Find out if there is a chapter of Serra club near you, and do something about it.
serraus.org/serra_usa/serra_clubs_diocese.htm

This is one of the all-time best posts I have ever read. Thank you.

 

[EEmperor]

What if you’re not a ‘group person’ ?

I was part of Church groups in the past [Third Orders (2), prayer groups], but there’s too much in the way of ‘power and ego trips’. I was tired of all the infighting. Why is it that people who in groups that want to do good are always the ones divided and fighting, and the ones who promote evil [like Planned Parenthood and the homosexual lobby] are the ones who are strong and united?

And why does everything have to be called a MINISTRY? We lay people are NOT MINISTERS! We’re NOT ORDAINED! (Yeah, I know I’ll probably read stuff about the 'priesthood of the baptized"-yada yada yada- )

It’s very aggravating…off my rant.

You are right, that can be a problem. In my parish we don’t really have “power struggles” as far as I know. But yeah, only people who are right for it, should take part in groups, etc.

But remember, everyone who has been confirmed should “preach” the word of God and Christ to the best of his abilities. This may mean, groups, or it may mean internet, or it may mean talking to a member of your family.
For example, my father is not a “group person”, but he did his “duty” of spreading the word by telling me about scripture and God during my “wasted years”

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

There is certainly the argument to be made that, well, things need to get done, and since Father can’t do it all we can’t not have any lay ministries. That said, though, we seem not to have a healthy enough sense that ruling and teaching of a parish are just as much the prerogative of the pastor (and his assistant priests in collaboration) as the sanctifying. The probably isn’t necessarily the mere existence of lay ministries, but the fact that they are all too often seen as functions performable by anyone with the proper academic or organizational qualifications.

This is detrimental to priestly vocations because it turns the priest into the sort of guy who was too stupid to figure out that he could do (almost) all the functions he really enjoys without all that messy stuff about celibacy, simplicity, etc. We need to understand that, sure, when push comes to shove one need not be ordained in order to supervise parish catechesis or some other such task, but it is not simply a generic, independent function - certain things are more properly done by a priest because they are linked to his vocational charism, to his ontological being as one set apart to teach, rule, and sanctify.

Is the priest a sacrament dispenser, or is he a man with a divine calling out from the midst of his people to be an individual set apart, more closely conformed to Christ by governing and ministering to the Church in His very person? I think that is the question that all too often gets muddled by our overabundance of lay ministries.

 

[bkovacs]

From the words of St Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologica

Question 82 Article 3.

“The dispensing of Christ’s body belongs to the priest for three reasons. First, because, as was said above (A[1]), he consecrates as in the person of Christ. But as Christ consecrated His body at the supper, so also He gave it to others to be partaken of by them. Accordingly, as the consecration of Christ’s body belongs to the priest, so likewise does the dispensing belong to him. Secondly, because the priest is the appointed intermediary between God and the people; hence as it belongs to him to offer the people’s gifts to God, so it belongs to him to deliver consecrated gifts to the people. Thirdly, because out of reverence towards this sacrament, nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest’s hands, for touching this sacrament. Hence it is not lawful for anyone else to touch it except from necessity, for instance, if it were to fall upon the ground, or else in some other case of urgency.”

Previous poster said “Is the priest a sacrament dispenser.”

Are you going to argue with St Thomas?.

 

[Cristiano]

Yes and no!

If the lay ministers are thriving for holiness, are humble and show complete submission and respect to the priest in order to allow him to lead us then I would say that these people create an environment where new vocations will be fostered.

If the lay ministers end up to do what they want, if they are saying derogatory things about the priests and Bishops, and if the make their own pop theology on the fly, then we have a problem with fostering vocations.

From my experience I see that a priest will always support a family that is involved in the parish ministries to truly achieve holiness, because their example will force their boys to consider the priesthood.

In my parish I have seen both kinds and I cringe when I see people that choose to ignore proper behaviors. My boy is still attracted to the idea of the priesthood; however when he sees bad behaviors he becomes skeptical of the parish life and Catholic school. It is my duty and my wife’s duty to keep serving and show that we are there not to replace the priest but to enable him in taking pastoral care of 1000’s of people.

I think that lay ministers should be required to go to adoration and receive spiritual direction in a regular way if they feel that they are called to serve. It is not matter of us serving, it is matter of us showing the highest regard for the holy orders.

Do you think that my son will consider the priesthood nothing special because sometime I am called to distribute communion? Or do you think that he will be attracted to the priesthood if his parents are willing to sacrifice their own convenience to help the priest in whatever he needs because he is in persona Christi?

 

[Mattapoisett64]

From the words of St Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologica

Question 82 Article 3.

“The dispensing of Christ’s body belongs to the priest for three reasons. First, because, as was said above (A[1]), he consecrates as in the person of Christ. But as Christ consecrated His body at the supper, so also He gave it to others to be partaken of by them. Accordingly, as the consecration of Christ’s body belongs to the priest, so likewise does the dispensing belong to him. Secondly, because the priest is the appointed intermediary between God and the people; hence as it belongs to him to offer the people’s gifts to God, so it belongs to him to deliver consecrated gifts to the people. Thirdly, because out of reverence towards this sacrament, nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest’s hands, for touching this sacrament. Hence it is not lawful for anyone else to touch it except from necessity, for instance, if it were to fall upon the ground, or else in some other case of urgency.”

Previous poster said “Is the priest a sacrament dispenser.”

Are you going to argue with St Thomas?.

Yes I am. The Church has provided that Deacons are Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. However, a Deacon’s hands are not consecrated. Thus, what St. Thomas has written is not consistent with what the Church now practices and how it defines the diaconal ministries under the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t have a problem with calling an activity in which you minister to someone else’s needs in response to your baptismal vows a ministry. Angels can’t be priests, but they do minister to our needs.

I do have a problem with the idea that God can’t call you to be hands or feet or muscles within the Body of Christ unless you also get a rotation in as the head. The bishops and priests have a place in the Church that uniquely shares Christ’s role as Head and Bridegroom of the Church.

From the words of St Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologica

Question 82 Article 3.

“The dispensing of Christ’s body belongs to the priest for three reasons. First, because, as was said above (A[1]), he consecrates as in the person of Christ. But as Christ consecrated His body at the supper, so also He gave it to others to be partaken of by them. Accordingly, as the consecration of Christ’s body belongs to the priest, so likewise does the dispensing belong to him. Secondly, because the priest is the appointed intermediary between God and the people; hence as it belongs to him to offer the people’s gifts to God, so it belongs to him to deliver consecrated gifts to the people. Thirdly, because out of reverence towards this sacrament, nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest’s hands, for touching this sacrament. Hence it is not lawful for anyone else to touch it except from necessity, for instance, if it were to fall upon the ground, or else in some other case of urgency.”

Previous poster said “Is the priest a sacrament dispenser.”

Are you going to argue with St Thomas?.

Of course priests dispense the sacraments. That is the word used, too, as in:

Serra Prayer for the Perseverance of Vocations

O God, You have constituted Your only-begotten Son Supreme and Eternal Priest
for the glory of Your majesty and the salvation of mankind:
Grant that those whom He has chosen
ministers and dispensers of his mysteries
may be found faithful in fulfilling the ministry they have received.

St. Thomas was obedient to the Pope, and I think he would defer to the Pope’s decision on what was and was not a necessity.

Yes and no!

If the lay ministers are thriving for holiness, are humble and show complete submission and respect to the priest in order to allow him to lead us then I would say that these people create an environment where new vocations will be fostered.

If the lay ministers end up to do what they want, if they are saying derogatory things about the priests and Bishops, and if the make their own pop theology on the fly, then we have a problem with fostering vocations.

From my experience I see that a priest will always support a family that is involved in the parish ministries to truly achieve holiness, because their example will force their boys to consider the priesthood.

In my parish I have seen both kinds and I cringe when I see people that choose to ignore proper behaviors. My boy is still attracted to the idea of the priesthood; however when he sees bad behaviors he becomes skeptical of the parish life and Catholic school. It is my duty and my wife’s duty to keep serving and show that we are there not to replace the priest but to enable him in taking pastoral care of 1000’s of people.

I think that lay ministers should be required to go to adoration and receive spiritual direction in a regular way if they feel that they are called to serve. It is not matter of us serving, it is matter of us showing the highest regard for the holy orders.

Do you think that my son will consider the priesthood nothing special because sometime I am called to distribute communion? Or do you think that he will be attracted to the priesthood if his parents are willing to sacrifice their own convenience to help the priest in whatever he needs because he is in persona Christi?

This is an excellent post, although I wouldn’t like to think that boys are “forced” to consider the priesthood…although I would like to think the consideration will be inevitable in the kind of home you describe.

Or, as we tell our kids at catechism: If you ask yourself “do I have a vocation?” or “Is God calling me to serve Him?”, then the answer is “yes.” You belong to God entirely and everything you do by rights belongs to God. The question is whether or not you have a religious or priestly vocation. Do not think for a minute that if you lack a call to the seminary or convent that you are let off the hook…you won’t get into Heaven until God makes you into a saint, so you may as well let Him get started now. It is not as if any of the saints wish they’d waited longer than they did to pursue holiness! No! The ones that waited all wish they’d started sooner.

I don’t think it is families who make a big deal of priests that produce priests so much as it is families who center their lives on God and the importance of the sacraments in a life of holiness. It is the families who are willing to sacrifice to please God. With families of fewer children, now, though, there are parents who don’t want to hear of a religious vocation in their home, lest they be “deprived” of the grandchildren they seem to think they have a right to have God provide for them.

Our pastor recently asked the kids to go home and ask their parents outright: “If I am called to the priesthood or religious life, will you support me?” He wants the parents put on the spot, to know that this openness to fostering religious vocations in their children is expected of a Christian family and parish. He wants the kids to know it, too.

 

[bkovacs]

Maybe Altar Boys should have been the first to become EMHCs, instead of the laity. Then they would have had a better look at what it is like to be a priest.

 

[EasterJoy]

Maybe Altar Boys should have been the first to become EMHCs, instead of the laity. Then they would have had a better look at what it is like to be a priest.

Well, of course altar boys are laity, too, and most aren’t fully initiated. I think EMsHC have to be chosen from confirmed Catholics in good standing with the Church, so the altar “boys” would have to all be young men in high school, at least.

 

[bkovacs]

No. Altar boys are there to assist the priest and deacon. Sorry Altar Girls not mentioned or allowed!. So they can assist the priest by distributing communion IF needed. Since pattens and altar rails are gone now, from most modern day churches.

 

[Cristiano]

…This is an excellent post, although I wouldn’t like to think that boys are “forced” to consider the priesthood…although I would like to think the consideration will be inevitable in the kind of home you describe…

That is my family and I am forcing my son to consider the priesthood, as I am forcing him to think how he would be as a husband and father, as I am forcing him to consider becoming a writer, as I am forcing him to consider becoming a scientist.

I am his father and I can see the multiple gifts that he has received. It is my job to force him to consider the use of those gifts; however I should refrain from forcing him into a vocation or job.

He knows that my expectations from him are: to be a good Christian, a well educated one, and always to try his best. After that it is his life, not mine.

I made it clear with all the boys in my catechism class that the must consider the holy orders as a possible vocation, not that they must apply for seminar. As men we have an obligation to be open minded to valid ideas, but we not not have to do everything just because they are good ideas.