Are LDS ProLife ?

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On the development of the doctrine of Transubstantiation:

I am going to post something I wrote previously. I believe the “real presence” is a better read of the Bible and the Early Church than is some compromise of the “real presence.” I do not embrace the “real presence” because of the authority of the CoJCoLDS. I wrote the below acknowledging this. I suggest my argument is weak. I fully acknowledge this. I am not trying to suggest that the “real presence” is not the best read of the Bible and the Early Church, but instead suggest that there have been dissenting positions.

Instead of including about 2-3 “continued…,” let me link to the Catholic board were I posted this in Oct 2003.

http://p075.ezboard.com/fcatholicpi...essageRange?topicID=101.topic&start=1&stop=20

Charity, TOm
 
Tmaque,

My original point was merely that the Catholic position on abortion has developed.

It seems to me that you are agreeing, but you are pointing to science as the impetus for this development. DNA and a better understanding of biology are clearly scientific developments. If they lead to the development within the Catholic Church, that is fine (with respect to my initial statement).

I would actually suggest that this is a little more than just that. The question of ensoulment is huge. The question of what type of sin is abortion is also huge.

Unlike some Buddhists (I think) the Catholic Church does not dig for insects when they build new buildings so they do not kill living things. Unlike some vegetarians, the Catholic Church as a body does not avoid meat so as not to kill living things. If the fetus is human is really the key issue.

The CoJCoLDS ALWAYS looks to any abortion as a sin. The question becomes is it possible that other sins are greater than this sin, making this sin necessary for the greater good. It seems the Catholic Church had allowances for such questions in the past. Now that the Catholic Church (through no science only religious developent) has declared that the fetus is ensouled at the joining of the sperm and egg, the only excuse for killing the fetus is when mother and fetus would have died otherwise. Ensoulment changes the state of this question, and if you look above that is exactly what I suggested was at the heart of the LDS equivocations.

Charity, TOm
 
The CoJCoLDS ALWAYS looks to any abortion as a sin. The question becomes is it possible that other sins are greater than this sin, making this sin necessary for the greater good.
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here is where your logic breaks down. the catholic church teaches sin is always wrong reguardless of the concequences. once you start rationalizing like this, you can justify anything because it becomes relativistic. for instance, would it be permissible to take one innocent life to save 100 lives? if not, how about 1000 lives? you see where this leads. it’s like justifying contraception or masterbation to stop the spread of aids.

the answer is no, it is never ok to take an innocent life. this logic leads down the road to perdition. either something is right or it’s wrong, there is no gray areas with God, especially with innocent life. i think you know better Tom, and deep down you know the catholic church is the one true church.
 
oat soda:
here is where your logic breaks down. the catholic church teaches sin is always wrong reguardless of the concequences. once you start rationalizing like this, you can justify anything because it becomes relativistic. for instance, would it be permissible to take one innocent life to save 100 lives? if not, how about 1000 lives? you see where this leads. it’s like justifying contraception or masterbation to stop the spread of aids.
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the answer is no, it is never ok to take an innocent life. this logic leads down the road to perdition. either something is right or it’s wrong, there is no gray areas with God, especially with innocent life. i think you know better Tom, and deep down you know the catholic church is the one true church.
  1. Are there times when the Catholic Church allows for people to act and in so acting terminate a pregnancy? There are.
  2. Is lying a sin? Were their nuns who lied to protect innocent lives (during the holocaust perhaps)? There surely have been. Did they sin? Was it the will of God?
And we are not talking about taking an innocent human life (except in the #1 above). We are talking about frustrating the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.

I guess I would have to say that I am somewhere between a Moral Absolutist and a Proportionalist. I solidly embrace the principle (very Catholic principle) of double effect. The principle of double effect states that, although one may never do evil that good may come of it, one may carry out a good action, under certain conditions, despite the fact that one foresees a serious evil possibly resulting from it. I believe there are things that are absolutely right and things that are absolutely wrong.

I believe the final test of right and wrong is the question of God’s will. We are to always do God’s will as best we can. In every situation of consequence there is an action in accordance with God’s will and one that is not in accordance with God’s will. There is no gray, just black and white.

I am not convinced that I am destined to be a Catholic. I am convinced that were I ever to find an intellectual and spiritual reason to not be a LDS, I would be a Catholic.

Charity, TOm
 
  1. Are there times when the Catholic Church allows for people to act and in so acting terminate a pregnancy? There are.
    no, what are you talking about?
  2. Is lying a sin? Were their nuns who lied to protect innocent lives (during the holocaust perhaps)? There surely have been. Did they sin? Was it the will of God? first off, lying isn’t always sinful, it’s not even in the 10 commandments. what matters is the respect for the dignity of every person as made in the image and likeness of God. this is absolute and is why killing the innocent is wrong. according to mormons, it may be morally legitimate to kill and innocent life according to some arbitrary reason, i.e. health of mother or if the mother was raped. so according to mormonism, it would be morally acceptable to take an innocent life it saves another.
intellectual and spiritual reason to not be a LDS i’ll give you one: would it be wise to believe someone’s testimony who was know to lie, deceive, sell scams, create forgeries, and marry multiple wives of whom some were already married, and not have a single shred of evidence for this testimony? lets not forget the fact that joe smith destroyed a mormon run newspaper after the owner found out about his multiple wives and adultery and published an article on it. this was why he was thrown in jail which lead up to his murder. finally, he didn’t die peacefully as a martyr, but was shooting back -some prophet.
 
oat soda:
no, what are you talking about?
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TOm:

Earlier in this thread I mentioned ectopic pregnancy. It is permissible for a Catholic to terminate ectopic pregnancies through the removal of part of the fallopian tube containing the fetus. The safest method of saving the mother’s life is the chemical abortion of the baby (second would be surgically acting upon the fetus), but this does not meet the “double effect” standard I mentioned in my last post so it is not in alignment with Catholic bioethics. I read about this a long time ago and would be happy to be shown to be incorrect.
oat soda:
first off, lying isn’t always sinful, it’s not even in the 10 commandments.
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TOm: I submit to you that if you say “isn’t ALWAYS sinful,” then you are not absolutely a moral absolutist either. If is sometimes permissible to lie (bear false witness Exodus 20:16 is usually taught as the “do not lie” commandment, but I am certain we could equivocate), then what would frequently be a sin is not in some instances.
oat soda:
what matters is the respect for the dignity of every person as made in the image and likeness of God. this is absolute and is why killing the innocent is wrong. according to mormons, it may be morally legitimate to kill and innocent life according to some arbitrary reason, i.e. health of mother or if the mother was raped. so according to mormonism, it would be morally acceptable to take an innocent life it saves another
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TOm:

I keep explaining this. Like Catholics of greater than 140 years ago, LDS do not declare that the fetus is fully human at the moment of conception. You have reason to embrace this belief (although I am not sure were it has been infallibly declared), but I do not subscribe to the authority of the Pope to define in such things. LDS strong in absolute terms and stronger in practical terms stand on abortion is derived from this truth.
oat soda:
i’ll give you one: would it be wise to believe someone’s testimony who was know to lie, deceive, sell scams, create forgeries, and marry multiple wives of whom some were already married, and not have a single shred of evidence for this testimony? lets not forget the fact that joe smith destroyed a mormon run newspaper after the owner found out about his multiple wives and adultery and published an article on it. this was why he was thrown in jail which lead up to his murder. finally, he didn’t die peacefully as a martyr, but was shooting back -some prophet.
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TOm:

I am certain Joseph Smith was a sinner. I do not read history and look to his actions with the greatest negative light I can. He also did many wonderful things. When one claims that the prophet was in a gun fight when he died we can be certain that they look at history in among the most negative lights possible.

A neutral read of history results in some sinful and other quite questionable (and offensive to our sensibilities of today) things done by Joseph. Even if this neutral or your very negative read is closer to accurate, worse condemnations upon past Popes are acknowledged by the Catholic Church. For either of us to have a valid link to Jesus Christ through ordination we must acknowledge that the authority passed through sinners and perhaps sinners who seem quite vile.

The Book of Mormon is in my mind an amazing religious book. The coarseness of Joseph Smith just makes it harder to explain.

Charity, TOm
 
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