Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

[BDawg]

how can you say you accept the NT “as is” in light of JS-Matthew? you only accept insofar as it’s been translated correctly and even though JS-M is the only “canonized” piece of your JST we all know he completed the NT portion of it.

Right you are. Even more ammo to shoot down the ridiculous argument.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

That’s sort of a ridiculous argument.

Mormons accept the New Testament as is, but note that there has probably been some stuff excised from it, and various writings suppressed that maybe should have made it in. We don’t accept the same books in the Old Testament as you (i.e., we leave out the deuterocanonicals), and Joseph Smith said the Song of Solomon wasn’t an inspired document. And what’s more, we have added all sorts of writings that aren’t in your canon.

So much for bowing down to every Catholic decision on the canon. Obviously, the Mormons don’t accept any writings as canonical based on the decisions of any council, and we feel free to accept anything else we want, no matter what your opinion.

The Deuterocanonicals were left out by Martin Luther. I don’t find it odd Joseph Smith left those out as he used a protestant Bible in his early years. You still haven’t adressed the fact that the canon of all Bibles, prior to Joseph Smith and maybe the Jehovah Witnesses, came from the Catholic Church. But I won’t push it, it seems we’re going to disagree on something so basic. Don’t you find it odd that God allowed a misrepresentation of His inspired word until Joseph Smith started deciding what was inspired and what wasn’t, according to mormons?

No one is asking you to bow down to anything BDawg and I know you folks feel free to add or subtract from the scriptures, it’s evident by the authors from the 1800s.

Would you care to address the other points I’ve brought up in post #548? Even though you are so quick to brush off such points as ridiculous, they seem like common sense and most logical to those outside the mormon faith. You might find it interesting that mormon documentation is provided.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[BDawg]

I am only asking about what I’ve heard. You don’t really seem to be answering my questions with real answers. I know almost nothing about mormonism just what i’ve heard which is not good and nothing i’ve seen you respond to me with makes me think any differently. how am i supposed to learn anything when all i’m getting from you are pat answers that only raise more questions. like the one I have about your hell. if i seem to be less than enthusiastic, it’s because you seem to be less than forthcoming in your responses about defending your faith when i question its veracity.

ljahns,

If you are really such a humble seeker trying to find out about Mormonism, why not try asking questions that don’t sound like snide put-downs? Go back and read your earlier post. Do you really think it sounded like you were just asking about something that didn’t quite make sense to you?

 

[teancum79]

JS was the one who ORDERED the destruction of the press. let’s not kid ourselves that he was only following the city council. he wasn’t just mayor, he was their prophet and if that wasn’t enough he was general of their militia. of course killing him wasn’t justified. the REASON why he “suppressed” the press and slandered and libeled other leaders in his church was because they were on to him. his dirtiest laundry was being aired. JS wasn’t sought by mobs for preaching, he was sought by those who felt defrauded of their money and/or that was trying to bed their wives and daughters. JS “revelations” were just excuses to justify his own immoral behaviors.

You seem to assume the very worst possible when have you know someone who was truly as bad as their worst critic said they where?

JS was a significant leader a lot of people disliked him, but those actions where hardly the result of sins he was accused of. Many of the attacks on him predate any accusation of a serious transgression.

While his being accused of every sin under the sun may have been used to justify the abuses he and the other saints suffered it was not the cause.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Hi x,

I don’t think you have described Mormon scholarship on this matter very accurately. For instance, in many, many cases, the doctrines in early Christianity that resonate most with the LDS can be traced back to very early forms of Jewish Christianity. (Remember that Jesus and all the apostles were Jews.) Check out this essay for some examples. Now, not a lot is known about early Jewish Christian groups, but the similarities with the LDS definitely congregate around that region of the early Christian spectrum. I think this is quite significant.

My point was that there exists no clear “proto-Mormon” church in early Christian history, so instead your “scholars” piece together from different early movements (even when such movements had little in common with each other, and when such movements still lacked profoundly unique Mormon doctrine).

There may very well be some Jewish-Christianity embedded in Mormonism (no doubt by the creation of Smith in hindsight) however I would be extremely surprised if you found a group of Jewish-Christians in history that practiced either exactly like or nearly exactly like the LDS.

 

[teancum79]

please…it’s taught in your classes today. just go to www.lds.org and look up eternal progression. no speculation needed here. and we all know that when “the prophet” speaks in general conference it’s NOT speculation. despite GBH’s dissembling, LDS claim to know quite a bit about this.

That we can progress yes that is very clear. Just who was God before how far back does it go etc. is not.

 

[teancum79]

I’ve brought up this same point too. Anyone acknowledging the Bible as Scripture honors the authority of the Catholic Church.

No anyone who accepts the Bible as scriptures acknowledges the value of the words of God’s prophets which the CC happened to have a copy of.

 

[ljahns]

There is only one Christ who lived and died and rose again that all men might come unto God. If you worshiping anything outside of that Christ and his father I feel sorry for you.

I suppose we will have to disagree on the “unimpeachable” witness of the CC.

Yes, I worship the One, True Christ whom I love and adore every day. Don’t feel sorry for me for I have seen His face in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist. Go and take a look at His face sometime during adoration. It’s miraculous!!!

We are going to have to disagree with the “unimpeachable” part.

 

[majick275]

Oh, you wouldn’t? Case in point:

Well, I had never heard of this one, so I looked up the Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 350 here. I read the whole sermon, which was by Brigham Young, and I couldn’t find where it said anything about the slaves or the war. In fact, the sermon was given in 1864.

So I don’t know whether Brigham Young said that, but I suspect that neither do you. That is, I’m sure you were quite satisfied to cut and paste this from some anti-Mormon page, without checking your references. And if some of what you post is falsehood, you would never know it, because you don’t care.

actually it was just a typo look at page 250 of that volume. it is of interest to also read his post war comments on this on volume 23 page 91 (and not that’s not an “aha” talk of his, it’s just interesting to see his after the fact claims about JS on this subject)

 

[ljahns]

God, Christ, the holy spirit and angels. Though he did get a good start with his family and likely even learned some from the local churches.

I heard that JS attended many different churches. This begs the question: if he had such a vision that told him all other churches were apostate why go?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

actually it was just a typo look at page 250 of that volume. it is of interest to also read his post war comments on this on volume 23 page 91 (and not that’s not an “aha” talk of his, it’s just interesting to see his after the fact claims about JS on this subject)

Thank you majick275. It seems BDawg finds a typo and discounts the whole post, not to mention makes an innuendo that I lied.

Notice how he totally avoids the prophesies of Joseph Smith, that I have to add, that never came true.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[BDawg]

The Deuterocanonicals were left out by Martin Luther. I don’t find it odd Joseph Smith left those out as he used a protestant Bible in his early years. Don’t you find it odd that God allowed a misrepresentation of His inspired word until Joseph Smith started deciding what was inspired and what wasn’t?

God allowed lots of stuff. He allowed pedophile priests, Popes who murdered and bribed their way into office, simony, Popes who commanded that heretics be tortured and/or killed. And so on. Do you have an answer for why God allowed all that stuff?

Well, it so happens that the Book of Mormon has a good answer for why God would allow people to cut out portions of His word.

“For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.” (Alma 29:8)

Would you care to address the other points I’ve brought up in post #548? Even though you are so quick to brush off such points as ridiculous, they seem like common sense and most logical to those outside the mormon faith.

I’m taking them one at a time, and seeing what others say so I don’t have to do it all myself.

 

[teancum79]

I heard that JS attended many different churches. This begs the question: if he had such a vision that told him all other churches were apostate why go?

For starters he went to many before the vision. I am unsure how much if any he did afterworlds. He was a young boy in many respects he was still learning. I had a psychology book a few years back. A large part of one chapter was based on some out dated now very accepted to be wrong ideas ( the whole drilling a persons skull to let the evil spirits out bit). Even though there was some bad info in the book it did not mean there was not value in the book at all. It had a lot of good stuff. I imagine that JS still read the Bible and went to churches to keep learning and growing even knowing as he did that they where not 100% correct.

 

[1holycatholic]

No anyone who accepts the Bible as scriptures acknowledges the value of the words of God’s prophets which the CC happened to have a copy of.

Oh? Of the hundreds of books floating about claiming to be inspired, how did the Church come to be in possession of a copy of the Bible with only inspired books in it?

 

[ljahns]

If I recall correctly the Canada mission provided the church with several of its strongest leaders. (Can’t be sure its been a few years sense I study church history in depth)…

Was that then the purpose of the vision from God to JS? I was under the impression that God had sent them to Canada to sell the copywrite. So did God get it wrong or did JS get it wrong?

I don’t have the specific quotes in the printing press publications I’ll see if I can ding them up, but thats going back a few years.

JS was often accused and of stuff he did not do. That aside he did support the decision of the city council to destroy the printing press. He was arrested and while awaiting trial he was murdered by a large mob who also killed his brother and nearly killed a 3rd man. I don’t know anyone who has ever been drunk enough to think that a little “suppression” of the press justifies murder. The printing press was just an excuse used by the mobs so they could try to justify their criminal behavior.

I was not in any way stating that the mob was justified. Mob mentality is usually aggressive and unreasonable. What I am saying is that he committed a crime, fled to avoid being arrested and when induced to turn himself in told his followers that he was going “as the lamb to the slaughter”. There is more to this quote but I don’t remember what it is. The jist is that he is going meekly to be martyred for his faith. Even though his “martyrdom” came at the hands of the mob instead, he reacted in anything but a fashion that he was dying for his faith like he claimed. It is said that when he was shot from the second story window, he had a gun in his hand and was using it. Funny way for a martyr to go in my opinion. Or am I wrong and the LDS does not consider him a martyr for his faith?

 

[teancum79]

Oh? Of the hundreds of books floating about claiming to be inspired, how did the Church come to be in possession of a copy of the Bible with only inspired books in it?

There are many inspired works. That the CC put a bunch of them together and many people accept them is not that big of a feat. It is important that we have it and many people both in and outside of the CC have labored to make the words of God available to many people for which we owe thanks, but love of the Bible does not mean accepting the CC for anything beyond their library services.

 

[teancum79]

Was that then the purpose of the vision from God to JS? I was under the impression that God had sent them to Canada to sell the copywrite. So did God get it wrong or did JS get it wrong?

I don’t have the specific quotes in the printing press publications I’ll see if I can ding them up, but thats going back a few years.

JS was often accused and of stuff he did not do. That aside he did support the decision of the city council to destroy the printing press. He was arrested and while awaiting trial he was murdered by a large mob who also killed his brother and nearly killed a 3rd man. I don’t know anyone who has ever been drunk enough to think that a little “suppression” of the press justifies murder. The printing press was just an excuse used by the mobs so they could try to justify their criminal behavior.

I was not in any way stating that the mob was justified. Mob mentality is usually aggressive and unreasonable. What I am saying is that he committed a crime, fled to avoid being arrested and when induced to turn himself in told his followers that he was going “as the lamb to the slaughter”. There is more to this quote but I don’t remember what it is. The jist is that he is going meekly to be martyred for his faith. Even though his “martyrdom” came at the hands of the mob instead, he reacted in anything but a fashion that he was dying for his faith like he claimed. It is said that when he was shot from the second story window, he had a gun in his hand and was using it. Funny way for a martyr to go in my opinion. Or am I wrong and the LDS does not consider him a martyr for his faith?

In addition to himself his brother and 2 close friends where also with him. To defend ones friends and family from being slaughtered for the crime of being in the same room with him hardly takes away from his martyr status. I have not been able to find the info I wanted yet, but the reigning I-net authority on all subjects Wiki says the JS was aquited on the printing press destruction chargers.

 

[1holycatholic]

There are many inspired works. That the CC put a bunch of them together and many people accept them is not that big of a feat. It is important that we have it and many people both in and outside of the CC have labored to make the words of God available to many people for which we owe thanks, but love of the Bible does not mean accepting the CC for anything beyond their library services.

By accepting the New Testament, the LDS accept the authority of the Catholic Church.

 

[hosemonkey]

God allowed lots of stuff. He allowed pedophile priests, Popes who murdered and bribed their way into office, simony, Popes who commanded that heretics be tortured and/or killed. And so on. Do you have an answer for why God allowed all that stuff?

But neither God nor the Catholic Church canonized serial adultery, child rape, mass murder (Mountain Meadows) ritual murder(blood atonement) “despoiling the Gentiles” or any other crimes that mormons were/are guilty of.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

God allowed lots of stuff. He allowed pedophile priests, Popes who murdered and bribed their way into office, simony, Popes who commanded that heretics be tortured and/or killed. And so on. Do you have an answer for why God allowed all that stuff?

I attribute it to actions of man, kind of like a man dieing in a gunfight. Surely you don’t expect Catholics to disgard the Church because of the actions of men? That would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Besides it would have made our Lord’s promise to be with us always to have been false.

You do realize the first scandals of the Church Christ started, actually took place during the life of Christ? (see below)

Joh 4:22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know. For salvation is of the Jews.

Mar 14:43 And while he was yet speaking, cometh Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve: and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the ancients.
Mar 14:44 And he that betrayed him had given them a sign, saying: Whomsoever I shall kiss, that is he. Lay hold on him: and lead him away carefully.
Mar 14:45 And when he was come, immediately going up to him he saith: Hail, Rabbi! And he kissed him.
Mar 14:46 But they laid hands on him and held him.

Mar 14:66 Now when Peter was in the court below, there cometh one of the maidservants of the high priest.
Mar 14:67 And when she had seen Peter warming himself looking on him, she saith: Thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.
Mar 14:68 But he denied, saying: I neither know nor understand what thou sayest. And he went forth before the court; and the **** crew.
Mar 14:69 And again a maidservant seeing him, began to say to the standers by: This is one of them.
Mar 14:70 But he denied again. And after a, while they that stood by said again to Peter: Surely thou art one of them; for thou art also a Galilean.
Mar 14:71 But he began o curse and to swear, saying: I know not this man of whom you speak.
Mar 14:72 And immediately the **** crew again. And Peter remembered the word that Jesus had said unto him: Before the **** crow twice, thou shalt thrice deny me. And he began to weep,

Joh 20:24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the place of the nails and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Mar 14:50 Then his disciples, leaving him, all fled away.

Rom 3:3 For what if some of them have not believed? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid!
Rom 3:4 But God is true and every man a liar, as it is written: That thou mayest be justified in thy words and mayest overcome when thou art judged.

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

Mat 13:24 Another parable he proposed to them, saying: The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man that sowed good seed in his field.
Mat 13:25 But while men were asleep, his enemy came and oversowed cockle among the wheat and went his way.
Mat 13:26 And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle.
Mat 13:27 And the servants of the good man of the house coming said to him. Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? Whence then hath it cockle?
Mat 13:28 And he said to them: An enemy hath done this. And the servants said to him: Wilt thou that we go and gather it up?
Mat 13:29 And he said: No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it.
Mat 13:30 Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.

Mat 13:47 Again the kingdom of heaven is like to a net cast into the sea, and gathering together of all kinds of fishes.
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was filled, they drew out, and sitting by the shore, they chose out the good into vessels, but the bad they cast forth.

Should we discard our faith in Jesus because of those scandals listed above? I don’t think so.

Well, it so happens that the Book of Mormon has a good answer for why God would allow people to cut out portions of His word.

“For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.” (Alma 29:8)

You use added mormon “scripture” to refute the protestants removing scriptures? I call that irony.

I’m taking them one at a time, and seeing what others say so I don’t have to do it all myself.

Ok, I’ve had to repost them three times to get any kind of response to those points.

Oh, I accept your apology for insinuating I had posted a falsehood when in fact it was a typo.

Please note I said typo. I typed all that and did not copy and paste it from a website. I have books and found those discussions in one of them.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1