Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

[Prodigal_Son1]

Correcting typos!

Don’t like answers? Don’t ask questions!

Is this what you’re doing? I have posted several comments and questions about the mormon faith that you have not responded too. It is you don’t like the questions or comments, therefore you’re not responding to them?

BDawg is responding to some but said he was trying to give others a chance to respond as well.

My most recent posts were about prophesies of Joseph Smith that did not come true. See post #600 and #604. I used LDS sources to show Joseph Smith’s prophesies were failed prophesies.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 tells us how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one.

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.(KJV)

A single failed prophecy proves that the prophet is false.

I’ll bring the other points back up once we’ve discussed the prophesies of Joseph Smith.

I do have one more question I’d rather have a mormon answer than rely on information through the internet, if you are willing.

What is the mormon view of Joseph Smith? Is he consider just a prophet or is he looked upon as more than a prophet? Please let me know if I need to clarify the question more.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[hosemonkey]

William Law was a disgruntled exmormon who disliked polygamy. He set out to stir up the non-mormons thrugh the newspaper and he would have succeeded if the newspaper was not destroyed. To save lives the paper had to be destroyed.

“We had to destroy the village in order to save it.” Remember that statement?
Did Brigham Young also have to destroy the Fancher Party at Mountain Meadows in order to “save” it? Or was it because that the Fancher Party was carrying over $300,000 worth of goods and equipment that Brigham coveted? Joseph Smith had that press destroyed because he had been caught with his pants down, both figuratively and literally. Why me, that’s the dumbest thing that I have heard you say yet.

 

[BDawg]

I still find it hard to believe that if God told him at age 14 that all churches were abominations in His Eyes that he would attend them. Especially at such a young age. imagine yourself in the same situation at the same age. i’d be terrified.

God didn’t say that all churches were abominations. He said their creeds were abominations. If you would really like to know, I can sometime post more about what JS thought of the creeds, and why they were so bad.

 

[majick275]

The Indians were victims of christian bigotry. It was okay to kill them off because they were savages went the logic of the time. And protestant and catholic churches need to take responsibility for this bigotry. The diseases were brought to the Indians via the white man and woman. And no one cared.

actually that’s not true. SOME christians were bigoted and did despicable things to native americans, others behaved. many of the indigenous tribes killed each other off too. the diseases weren’t brought on purpose and many people did care. what about the mormon placement programs for native american children? do you see that as an enlightened and beneficial thing?

 

[why_me]

actually that’s not true. SOME christians were bigoted and did despicable things to native americans, others behaved. many of the indigenous tribes killed each other off too. the diseases weren’t brought on purpose and many people did care. what about the mormon placement programs for native american children? do you see that as an enlightened and beneficial thing?

the indian disappeared because of bigotry of white settlers and greed. The indians were doing just fine before the arrival of the christians.

The placement program had good intentions. And that was important. The lds church tried to do something for the indian that was rotting on the reservation.

 

[zerinus]

Is this what you’re doing? I have posted several comments and questions about the mormon faith that you have not responded too. It is you don’t like the questions or comments, therefore you’re not responding to them?

Sometimes when you have respoonded to someone’s questions beyond a certain point, they are no longer worth responding to. I think that I have reached that point with regard to your questions.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

William Law was a disgruntled exmormon who disliked polygamy. He set out to stir up the non-mormons thrugh the newspaper and he would have succeeded if the newspaper was not destroyed. To save lives the paper had to be destroyed.

if only that were true. why was he an ex-mormon? and why disgruntled? he had good reason and he wasn’t just “some guy”. he was a member of the first presidency who JS drove away because he refused to condone JS wickedness. he wasn’t out to stir up non-mormons at all. he wanted the mormons to realize what JS was doing and not get suckered into it. He was attempting reform. how did destroying a newspaper save lives? this is absolutely ridiculous. have you even looked at william laws side of the story? read teh expositor?

 

[why_me]

“We had to destroy the village in order to save it.” Remember that statement?
Did Brigham Young also have to destroy the Fancher Party at Mountain Meadows in order to “save” it? Or was it because that the Fancher Party was carrying over $300,000 worth of goods and equipment that Brigham coveted? Joseph Smith had that press destroyed because he had been caught with his pants down, both figuratively and literally. Why me, that’s the dumbest thing that I have heard you say yet.

Whether BY knew what was happening in mountain meadows is a question mark. It looks unlikely that he knew. But for many mormons who were shell shocked from all the bigotry and murders commited by other christians against them in ohio and Nauvoo, the party represented a threat. Mind you, it wasn’t. But for those who escaped the persecution, the party seemed like a threat. It was a terrible incident where intolerance breed other intolerance.

The newspaper was also intolerant of mormon practice, mainly with polygamy which was still under raps at that time. For the newspaper to begin to print polygamy articles with an intent to stir up the locals against the mormons, it deserved to be destroyed. The locals were mainly intolerant of difference and rather uneducated. It wouldn’t have taken much to get the mobs a moving.

 

[hosemonkey]

the indian disappeared because of bigotry of white settlers and greed. The indians were doing just fine before the arrival of the christians.

The placement program had good intentions. And that was important. The lds church tried to do something for the indian that was rotting on the reservation.

And the fond hope of the mormons was that the Indian kids would become “white and delightsome.” So, the mormons were then, in fact, NOT Christians? That clears that up. And mormons are claiming NOT to have exploited the Indians? Who were your henchmen at Mountain Meadows? Here’s a tip…They weren’t Chinese.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Sometimes when you have respoonded to someone’s questions beyond a certain point, they are no longer worth responding to. I think that I have reached that point with regard to your questions.

zerinus

I’m afraid you are mistaken, you have not responded to Joseph Smith’s failed prophesies, unless I’ve overlooked it. If you have, please point them out to me.

I don’t know how to make the questions any easier other than not bring them up and I don’t think that is the way to seek truth. Do you?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[why_me]

And the fond hope of the mormons was that the Indian kids would become “white and delightsome.” So, the mormons were then, in fact, NOT Christians? That clears that up. And mormons are claiming NOT to have exploited the Indians? Who were your henchmen at Mountain Meadows? Here’s a tip…They weren’t Chinese.

The placement program was designed to give indian children a chance in life. Reservation life was not very good with violence and alcoholism rampant. The program had good intentions.

Mountain meadows was not made up of all mormons. It was a small group of people who acted alone. They made a mistake and a dear one at that. But one cannot blame the lds church for this mistake.

 

[ibkc]

the indian disappeared because of bigotry of white settlers and greed. The indians were doing just fine before the arrival of the christians.

Oh, so now Mormons aren’t Christians again. Christian when it’s convenient, not Christian when it’s not convenient.

 

[Stephen168]

It didn’t, from our perspective. Read my prior post on this, and skip to the part about the Song of Solomon.

What post?

 

[AMDGtoo]

God didn’t say that all churches were abominations. He said their creeds were abominations.

The creeds are only what the churches officially believe. How on earth can the belief be separated from the man (church). So in all reality, Joseph Smith was saying that what the churches officially believe are abominations, and if what the churches believe is abomination, well then, you do the math.

.

 

[hosemonkey]

The placement program was designed to give indian children a chance in life. Reservation life was not very good with violence and alcoholism rampant. The program had good intentions.

Mountain meadows was not made up of all mormons. It was a small group of people who acted alone. They made a mistake and a dear one at that. But one cannot blame the lds church for this mistake.

You are correct. It was NOT all mormons, you conned some Indians into helping with the dirty work in the hopes that the Indians would get the blame. The operation was carried out at the behest and with the approval of Brigham Young, your “prophet.” He used John D. Lee as his fall guy, who ultimately paid with his life. This is one little dirty secret that you cannot cover up.

 

[majick275]

the indian disappeared because of bigotry of white settlers and greed. The indians were doing just fine before the arrival of the christians.

The placement program had good intentions. And that was important. The lds church tried to do something for the indian that was rotting on the reservation.

and yet we still see Indians today so did they “reappear”? many white settlers were bigoted and greedy but not all. what on earth makes you think the Indians were doing “just fine”? prior to white invasions? was it the human sacrifices? the constant wars?

how condescending of you to stop the rotting on the reservation by taking the kids away to be raised in white homes as mormons. what is they say about good intentions?

 

[majick275]

The placement program was designed to give indian children a chance in life. Reservation life was not very good with violence and alcoholism rampant. The program had good intentions.

Mountain meadows was not made up of all mormons. It was a small group of people who acted alone. They made a mistake and a dear one at that. But one cannot blame the lds church for this mistake.

so what did the mormons do for these violent alcoholics? or do they not matter?

 

[hosemonkey]

Is this what you’re doing? I have posted several comments and questions about the mormon faith that you have not responded too. It is you don’t like the questions or comments, therefore you’re not responding to them?

BDawg is responding to some but said he was trying to give others a chance to respond as well.

We are all waiting, I am sure, for mormon answers to these questions. A false “prophet” Joseph Smith, is at the bottom of this whole mormon construct and it is certainly germane to apply the Biblical standard for legitimacy to him. And if we apply that standard to the “prophet” Joseph Smith, he fails miserably, as does “The Executioner” Brigham Young. So far, no mormon has responded to this question. Was Joseph Smith a false prophet according to Biblical standards?

 

[BDawg]

Now, I’ve explained my position. Where’s that temple Joseph spoke about? And, is Joseph Smith still alive? I’m pretty sure the second coming hasn’t happened yet.

Much of what you said was reasonable, but now you ignore my point that Mormons don’t believe that the “generation” that was alive in the 1830’s is all gone. That’s what the prophecy said–not that Joseph Smith would still be alive.

Ok, I’ll address the Second Coming prophecy here, but don’t expect me to keep going on your giant list. That’s such a common tactic for forums like this–people can’t keep up with the topic under discussion, so they look up some anti-whatever web site or book, and find some list of “Questions to Ask Your Mormon/Catholic/JW/Whatever Friends,” and dump the whole list on everyone. Then they say, “If you can’t answer everything on this list, you are obviously wrong.” I’ve seen it SOOOOOOO many times. The polite thing to do would be to post ONE question that you are curious about, and if the thread is swamped and people don’t answer, post it again. Someone will answer. Instead, you just kept posting more, until you finally dumped this giant laundry list on everyone. Sorry, but at the time we were busy answering people who brought up points that were germane to the discussion of “Are LDS Protestants,” or even Christian at all, and what kind of evidence we can come up with that we are related to early Christianity. At least that stuff was fairly on-topic.

**Joseph Smith’s “Second Coming Prophecy”
**Here is the text of the actual revelation, with Joseph Smith’s comments about it.
“I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter. I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face. I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.” (D&C 130:14-17)
So Joseph Smith was praying to know the time of the Second Coming, and God put him off by telling him that IF he were to live to be 85 (ca. 1891), then HE would see Jesus at that time. He said he had no idea whether that even meant the the Second Coming, and in fact, God ***never promised ***Joseph would live that long.

Not being sure what his answer meant, Joseph went on to say that he believed the Second Coming wouldn’t be any sooner than 1891. And he was right, by the way.

Another stupid charge against Joseph Smith. And I’m betting you didn’t look up the sources cited in your anti-Mormon book, once again? Because you don’t even care whether you “post falsehoods,” or not?

Do you see why your laundry list is annoying and rude? So far I have responded to several of your charges and shown that:

1. Mormons don’t accept the Bible based on Catholic authority. We simply ignore Catholic opinions on the matter of the canon.
2. Brigham Young never “prophesied” anything about the Civil War and slavery. He offered an opinion about it, based on his interpretation of some passages of scripture, but never indicated he was giving some kind of revelation.
3. Mormons don’t believe that the “generation” alive in the 1830’s has “passed away,” so we are still waiting for the building of the New Jerusalem.
4. The charge that Joseph Smith falsely predicted the time of the Second Coming is absolutely ridiculous if you read the text of the actual revelation.

I’ll stop there on your list. I think enough has been said that any reasonable person reading this thread could see that whoever made up that list was just grasping at any possible criticism, whether it makes sense, or not.

 

[BDawg]

the indian disappeared because of bigotry of white settlers and greed. The indians were doing just fine before the arrival of the christians.

The placement program had good intentions. And that was important. The lds church tried to do something for the indian that was rotting on the reservation.

I have an adopted cousin who is a Native American placed with my aunt and uncle through that program. Every time she would go back to the res, her family and friends would pressure her to get into all kinds of drinking, pre-marital sex, etc. It was very sad, and she did much better living with my aunt and uncle. Nobody should idealize most of the Indian reservations as if they are some bastion of culture that the mean LDS were attacking. We were just trying to help some kids out of some very difficult situations.