Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

[BDawg]

Oh, so now Mormons aren’t Christians again. Christian when it’s convenient, not Christian when it’s not convenient.

ibkc,

When the Christians arrived, it was 1492. There were no Mormons at the time. Don’t try so hard to catch people in their words. You are embarrassing yourself.

 

[BDawg]

What post?

Sorry, but I’m not going to sift through this gigantic thread to find it, so I’ll just repeat. Joseph Smith said the Song of Solomon was not inspired. Therefore, we don’t believe that Catholicism ended up with a collection of books in their Bible that was exclusively inspired.

 

[BDawg]

The creeds are only what the churches officially believe. How on earth can the belief be separated from the man (church). So in all reality, Joseph Smith was saying that what the churches officially believe are abominations, and if what the churches believe is abomination, well then, you do the math.

.

I offered to post what JS said was wrong with the creeds, but I guess you are only interested in your own opinions about what he meant.

 

[BDawg]

The operation was carried out at the behest and with the approval of Brigham Young, your “prophet.”

The evidence doesn’t support this charge. They sent a courier to BY to ask his advice, and BY sent the courier back to tell them to leave the settlers alone. The courier got back too late, and BY was extremely angry about what happened.

Also, this was WAR time. The US government was sending Johnston’s Army from the East, and some of the people on the trail (not the Fancher party, necessarily) were telling the Mormons that they were going to go to California and bring back an army from the West. They were at war, and they were scared. Scared people sometimes do rash things.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Much of what you said was reasonable, but now you ignore my point that Mormons don’t believe that the “generation” that was alive in the 1830’s is all gone. That’s what the prophecy said–not that Joseph Smith would still be alive.

A child 1 year old in 1830 would be 178 years old today. I think they would all be gone by now. Who is this elderly person still around?

Ok, I’ll address the Second Coming prophecy here, but don’t expect me to keep going on your giant list. That’s such a common tactic for forums like this–people can’t keep up with the topic under discussion, so they look up some anti-whatever web site or book, and find some list of “Questions to Ask Your Mormon/Catholic/JW/Whatever Friends,” and dump the whole list on everyone. Then they say, “If you can’t answer everything on this list, you are obviously wrong.” I’ve seen it SOOOOOOO many times. The polite thing to do would be to post ONE question that you are curious about, and if the thread is swamped and people don’t answer, post it again. Someone will answer. Instead, you just kept posting more, until you finally dumped this giant laundry list on everyone. Sorry, but at the time we were busy answering people who brought up points that were germane to the discussion of “Are LDS Protestants,” or even Christian at all, and what kind of evidence we can come up with that we are related to early Christianity. At least that stuff was fairly on-topic.

I will slow down abit and stick with one subject at a time. If you look at my most recent posts, I’ve used LDS sources to verify failed prophesies.

**Joseph Smith’s “Second Coming Prophecy”
**Here is the text of the actual revelation, with Joseph Smith’s comments about it.
“I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter. I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face. I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.” (D&C 130:14-17)
So Joseph Smith was praying to know the time of the Second Coming, and God put him off by telling him that IF he were to live to be 85 (ca. 1891), then HE would see Jesus at that time. He said he had no idea whether that even meant the the Second Coming, and in fact, God ***never promised ***Joseph would live that long.

Not being sure what his answer meant, Joseph went on to say that he believed the Second Coming wouldn’t be any sooner than 1891. And he was right, by the way.

I was using the verses from Doctrines and Covenants, 112 where it stated that Joseph Smith, under the hand of the Lord, would hold the keys until the Lord returned. It’s in one of my posts.

Another stupid charge against Joseph Smith. And I’m betting you didn’t look up the sources cited in your anti-Mormon book, once again? Because you don’t even care whether you “post falsehoods,” or not?

Ok, that’s twice you’ve accused me of posting falsehoods. I guess it’s fair for mormons to post falsehoods or be misleading when arguing points. I also posted about Joseph Smith’s prophesy, in the name of the Lord, about the temple being build in Missouri. Please see your response below.

Hmmm. Actually, the prophecy says this:

“For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.” (D&C 84:4)
​

I responded with:

Well actually, according to the mormon doctrines and covenants 84:3-5, the whole prophecy says this:

Quote:
3 Which city shall be abuilt, beginning at the btemple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and cdedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city aNew Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which btemple shall be creared in this dgeneration.
5 For verily this generation shall not all apass away until an bhouse shall be built unto the Lord, and a ccloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the dglory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

How is it you missed 3 and 4 in your response to me?

Now what is it they say about glass houses? Do not accuse me of posting false posts when you deliberately leave verses from your own source to try and twist it into me doing wrong.

Do you see why your laundry list is annoying and rude? So far I have responded to several of your charges and shown that: If makes one wonder how many other things you have been less than honest about.

1. Mormons don’t accept the Bible based on Catholic authority. We simply ignore Catholic opinions on the matter of the canon.

1. Brigham Young never “prophesied” anything about the Civil War and slavery. He offered an opinion about it, based on his interpretation of some passages of scripture, but never indicated he was giving some kind of revelation.

1. Mormons don’t believe that the “generation” alive in the 1830’s has “passed away,” so we are still waiting for the building of the New Jerusalem.

1. The charge that Joseph Smith falsely predicted the time of the Second Coming is absolutely ridiculous if you read the text of the actual revelation.

I’ll stop there on your list. I think enough has been said that any reasonable person reading this thread could see that whoever made up that list was just grasping at any possible criticism, whether it makes sense, or not.

No more lists as I’ve said. I will stay on one point at a time. I have plenty. I do not mean to be annoying, but there’s so much evidence available and from LDS sources, I might add.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1​

 

[BDawg]

Below is the scripture Joseph had scribed that predicted he would be alive at the time of the second coming. See doctrines and covenants, 112:15.

Mormons believe that JS still has the keys of this dispensation, which will be handed to Christ (along with the keys of all the other dispensations) at His coming.

Another BIG stretch, that shows your source material was written by someone with a very superficial understanding of Mormonism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormons believe that JS still has the keys of this dispensation, which will be handed to Christ (along with the keys of all the other dispensations) at His coming.

What does this mean?

I read it as Jesus is subordinate to JS, but what do LDS believe?

 

[BDawg]

President Smith, in concluding his remarks, said that if the government, which received into its coffers the money of citizens for its public lands, while its officials are rolling in luxury at the expense of its public treasury, cannot protect such citizens in their lives and property, it is an old granny anyhow; and I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left, for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished, thereby perpetrating a foul and corroding blot upon the fair fame of this great republic, the very thought of which would have caused the high-minded and patriotic framers of the Constitution of the United States to hide their faces with shame. Judge, you will aspire to the presidency of the United States; and if ever you turn your hand against me or the Latter-day Saints, you will feel the weight of the hand of Almighty upon you; and you will live to see and know that I have testified the truth to you; for the conversation of this day will stick to you through life.

One more comment on this one, since it is at least a better attempt than the others.

If you look at the full context of this prophecy, it was clearly and strikingly fulfilled. See here.

Check out the entire page here for many examples of JS’s fulfilled prophecies.

 

[BDawg]

What does this mean?

I read it as Jesus is subordinate to JS, but what do LDS believe?

It means that JS was given keys of authority by Christ, and at the Second Coming, JS will relinquish them back to Christ.

 

[AMDGtoo]

1. Mormons don’t accept the Bible based on Catholic authority. We simply ignore Catholic opinions on the matter of the canon.
2. Mormons don’t believe that the “generation” alive in the 1830’s has “passed away,” so we are still waiting for the building of the New Jerusalem.

Don’t know about any “dumping” of any list. Don’t even understand the “anti-Mormon” thing. And since this thread seems to have taken on a “life of its own”, I’m not even sure that the question about the Bible has been answered (but after reading these knowledgeable people here, I’m pretty sure they didn’t let that one “slip” by unchallenged.) The fact remains that although the LDS think that they ignore Catholic opinions on the matter of the canon of the Bible, they wouldn’t even have a Bible to mutilate and misinterpret if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church. The Bible is a Catholic book. And the books of the Bible were determined by the Catholic Church in the fourth century!

As far a the word “generation”, well I guess this is another word that should be added to our Mormon/Christian dictionary, because the concept in regular circles is not the same one that the Mormons use. According to the dictionary a generation is the average time interval between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring. That averages a little over tweny years. But the Mormons seem to think that the generation alive in the 1830s is still alive in 2008.:ehh: :hypno: :tsktsk:

 

[RebeccaJ]

It means that JS was given keys of authority by Christ, and at the Second Coming, JS will relinquish them back to Christ.

He holds something physical? (Serious question, BTW.)

 

[BDawg]

A child 1 year old in 1830 would be 178 years old today. I think they would all be gone by now. Who is this elderly person still around?

I said it was John and others who were “translated,” to remain immortal on the Earth until Christ’s coming.

I was using the verses from Doctrines and Covenants, 112 where it stated that Joseph Smith, under the hand of the Lord, would hold the keys until the Lord returned. It’s in one of my posts.

Ok, I addressed that a few posts up.

Now what is it they say about glass houses? Do not accuse me of posting false posts when you deliberately leave verses from your own source to try and twist it into me doing wrong.

As far as I can see, I answered this charge adequately.

But in any case, if you refrain from posting long lists of charges that you obviously haven’t checked yourself, I’ll stop accusing you of not caring whether what you post is true. Thanks for promising to do that–it shows that I wasn’t entirely right about you.

 

[BDawg]

He holds something physical? (Serious question, BTW.)

No, “keys” are metaphorical.

 

[BDawg]

As far a the word “generation”, well I guess this is another word that should be added to our Mormon/Christian dictionary, because the concept in regular circles is not the same one that the Mormons use. According to the dictionary a generation is the average time interval between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring. That averages a little over tweny years. But the Mormons seem to think that the generation alive in the 1830s is still alive in 2008.:ehh: :hypno: :tsktsk:

So you’re saying you didn’t read what I said about why we don’t believe that “generation” had passed away.

 

[BDawg]

He holds something physical? (Serious question, BTW.)

Hi again, Rebecca,

The idea is just like the following in 1 Cor. 15:24-25.
“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.”
Christ has the rulership of the Kingdom, until the end, when He delivers it to his Father. Of course, Christ will still rule with his Father. Anyway, this is the same kind of concept as “delivering up the keys” back to Christ.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Mountain meadows was not made up of all mormons. It was a small group of people who acted alone.

Who were the other people, aside from the Indians (set up to take the fall) involved?

And need I remind the people here that both protestantism and catholicism were responsible for what happened to the american indian. They made a mistake and a dear one at that. But one cannot blame the lds church for this mistake.

Why not isn’t that what you did with this remark?

And need I remind the people here that both protestantism and catholicism were responsible for what happened to the american indian.

 

[AMDGtoo]

So you’re saying you didn’t read what I said about why we don’t believe that “generation” had passed away.

No, I had written my post before you even answered (believe it or not.)

BTW, you were so open and kind and didn’t have that “snappish”,“they’re-purposely-out-to-persecute-us” and “anti-Mormon-instead of just non-Mormon” attitude at first. I hope that BDawg makes a return.

I’m sorry if some of the things that Mormons say are questioned a lot, but they do seen quite “peculiar” from accepted Christian concepts and even normally accepted ones. (Of course, you knew that–you once were proud of being a “peculiar people”.

 

[teancum79]

I am assuming your quoting when you say “all their creeds are an abomination unto me and all their professors corrupt.”

What I’m seeing here is that when you challenge an LDS member about these quotes you get a lot of “this was attribtued to him but not confirmed” or they skirt the issue and try to lead you somewhere else or like here they don’t give you the entire quote or it’s real meaning. I’d like just once for them to own up to all the ugly things their church has said over the years.

It is not ugly and I’ve never seen an LDS person call into question the validity of that particular quote. We do however keep in mind the absolute nature of God’s perfection. He can’t accept error he forgives but does not accept sin. Thus all churches teaching incorrect things would be in error and their creeds an abomination . This does not exclude the positives in people. Adultery is a big sin yet Christ showed compassion to the women in adultury. He did not say hey its all good, but he did not say she was going to burn forever.

So yes the creeds where an abomination (they had errors), but such is not a condemnation of all people.

 

[majick275]

It is not ugly and I’ve never seen an LDS person call into question the validity of that particular quote. We do however keep in mind the absolute nature of God’s perfection. He can’t accept error he forgives but does not accept sin. Thus all churches teaching incorrect things would be in error and their creeds an abomination . This does not exclude the positives in people. Adultery is a big sin yet Christ showed compassion to the women in adultury. He did not say hey its all good, but he did not say she was going to burn forever.

So yes the creeds where an abomination (they had errors), but such is not a condemnation of all people.

abomination is a bit stronger than error. i think even staunch LDs would have to admit that by your standards the mormon church has taught “error”. this “scripture” calls the abomination so great that none of these creed professing churches should be joined, they are not salvageable. compare the nicene creed with D&C 20 and then tell me what is so “abominable” about it. BTW…JS didn’t seem to have a problem with adultery.

 

[AMDGtoo]

BTW add the word “translated” to that Mormon/Christian dictionary. Normal circles think of it as meaning “to express in another language”, and “to explain”. Mormons somehow mean it to not die.

Okay, Mormons say that the Apostle John was “translated” meaning “did not die”. Well, how can you then say that the Catholic Church apostasied after the death of the last Apostle, when that Apostle never died? Talk about a leap of logic! :hypno: Honestly (really, really).