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RebeccaJ
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wow. JS had quite the opinion of himself.
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hosemonkey
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And how! The more of these mormon “answers” that I see, the more convinced I am that this false religion is truly diabolical. It is starting to make me ill.
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BDawg
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Hi AMDG,
I’m sorry I’ve been a bit snappish. I was typing fast, and the fact is that I do have a tendency to do that if I don’t watch myself.
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RebeccaJ
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I just have a hard time sorting it all out. I was raised LDS but most of what LDS say around these parts is not what I remember. So between what I remember, what they say, and then trying to compare that to Catholicism…
:hypno:
I think I need a rest!
ps my FIL is USN retired and Vietnam Vet (3 tours)
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BDawg
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Good point. We should be more careful about how we define the apostasy. John didn’t die, but he was held in reserve to minister to people outside of God’s true Church, until the Church organization could be restored.
Stephen168
New member
Does that mean John died in 1830?
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hosemonkey
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hosemonkey
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No. I think that poor 'ol John is flying around here somewhere waiting to be “untranslated.” (“untranslated”, is that a word? Well, it is now) C’mon mormons, that is hay that has already been through the horse. Really!
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majick275
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i would like to see your basis for this claim and i would also ask if you believe the same applies to the 3 nephites?
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BDawg
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No, we believe he is still alive, acting as a ministering angel.
An old early Christian tradition is interesting in this regard.
“John, again, in Asia, was banished by Domitian the king to the isle of Patmos, in which also he wrote his Gospel and saw the apocalyptic vision; and in Trajan’s time he fell asleep at Ephesus, where his remains were sought for, but could not be found.” (St. Hippolytus of Rome, early third century, On the Twelve Apostles, in ANF 5:254-255.)
So it seems that John was “presumed dead,” but nobody could find a body.
The idea that some people get “translated” in this manner is also a very early Christian idea. In the late first century, Papias of Hierapolis went around collecting oral traditions from those who had known Jesus and the apostles. Irenaeus quoted several passages from Papias, including when he was talking about “translation.” (No, AMGD, Mormons didn’t make up this definition of the word.) Click here to read what Irenaeus said about it.
The early Jewish-Christian document, the Clementine Recognitions had Peter saying this about translation.
“But the time was not yet that there should be a resurrection of the bodies that were dissolved; but this seemed rather to be their reward from God, that whoever should be found righteous, should remain longer in the body; or, at least, as is clearly related in the writings of the law concerning a certain righteous man, that God translated him. In like manner others were dealt with, who pleased His will, that, being translated to Paradise, they should be kept for the kingdom. But as to those who have not been able completely to fulfil the rule of righteousness, but have had some remnants of evil in their flesh, their bodies are indeed dissolved, but their souls are kept in good and blessed abodes, that at the resurrection of the dead, when they shall recover their own bodies, purified even by the dissolution, they may obtain an eternal inheritance in proportion to their good deeds.” (*Clementine Recognitions *1:52, in ANF 8:91.)
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BDawg
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Hi Majick,
Yes, I believe the same applies to the 3 Nephites. Did my last post answer your question about a basis for this claim, or did you need more?
Stephen168
New member
Does that mean the Mormon Church is not the restored Church?
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majick275
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thank you but no it didn’t. perhaps i didn’t ask it right. i am wondering what causes you to believe that john and the 3 nephites were reserved to minister only during the time of the apostasy. i do not recall a time limit for their ministry nor a specific focus on them to minister “outside” the true church being taught.
i have some follow ons as well. first it seems somewhat problematic to keep 4 such “special” apostles around and yet claim all priesthood authority is absent from the earth. one would think they could convert a sufficient number to maintain some semblance of a church.
secondly it seems especially strange that moroni would visit JS rather than one or more of these 4. same goes for John the baptist “restoring” the aaronic priesthood when these 4 all have those keys. same argument again for peter and james joining john instead of the nephites.
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mntbike
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They never know what they are saying. All they know how to do lie. Its so sad to listen to them because you want to help but they are so brain washed that it is not possibly somtimes. I think that is their water they may be putting LSD in it or somthing.
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Prodigal_Son1
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I find using a presidential election as being an example of a prophesy that the government will be overthrown and totally wasted being fullfilled a very far stretch.
I also find the mormon reasoning of generations still being around because they have died and become angels also a far stretch. This type of argument can be turned around to justify that the Catholic Church has always existed, and still exists, as we believe Peter and all the Apostles are alive with Christ in heaven. It’s funny how thousands of years later, generations passed takes on such a length of time when most generations in the Bible were approximately 40 years. Take for example, Moses leading the Israelites around the desert for 40 years before they were allowed to enter the promise land.
I’d be interested in hearing other Catholic opinions, and non-Catholic opinions for that matter, on the mormon interpretation of generations not yet passed some 170 plus years later.
If I prophesy something right now, according to mormon reasoning, it can be a true prophesy even if it takes thousands of years.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 tells us how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one.
I don’t think the interpertation of the above verses allows for generation after generation. If the thing follow not, nor comes to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken. How many people can tell a false prophet from a true prophet if prophesies do not happen for hundreds of years? How many people could follow a false prophet if the prophesies have hundreds of years to transpire? I find fault with this reasoning myself.
I had an thought after posting this post. Why did you feel it necessary to leave out two verses describing the temple being built if there was such an “ironclad” answer? It appears you thought no one would go and find out the wording provided by my “stupid” sources, as you call them, was the same as your LDS sources.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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Prodigal_Son1
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Next point BDawg or any other mormon willing to address it.
I have a “real” apostasy from the Gospels I’d be interested in seeing a mormon response too.
Chapter 6 of the Gospel of John describes an apostasy by many of the followers of Jesus because they refused to accept His teaching on the Eucharist. Many of Jesus’ disciples walked away because they wouldn’t accept His teaching that they must eat His body and drink His blood. They apostasized because they wouldn’t accpet the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Why do mormons follow the apostate disciples by rejecting the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
I have a “real” apostasy from the Gospels I’d be interested in seeing a mormon response too.
Chapter 6 of the Gospel of John describes an apostasy by many of the followers of Jesus because they refused to accept His teaching on the Eucharist. Many of Jesus’ disciples walked away because they wouldn’t accept His teaching that they must eat His body and drink His blood. They apostasized because they wouldn’t accpet the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Why do mormons follow the apostate disciples by rejecting the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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Prodigal_Son1
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This is just my opinion, so I’m not trying to keep the argument going as there is no way we are going to agree, but I wanted to point out Christ built a Church in approximately 3 years of His ministry.
How long will a restoration of His Church take?
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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hosemonkey
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So, St. John was held from heaven in order to minister to those outside of the Catholic Church? That’s preposterous. Jesus Christ Himself promised us an Advocate, a helper and teacher, who would lead us in all things. That IS the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, not St. John. As for the "three nephites… they are fantasy characters, like the Eloy or aliens. They do not exist nor have they ever existed.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Again, I’m not trying to carry the argument further as I see no way for us to agree on everything (even though I haven’t found anything yet I can comfortably agree with), but I want to respond with my thoughts.
There is a lot of historical evidence of the canon of the Bible whether mormons accept it based on Catholic authority or not. Christians provided the Bible used today by all Catholics, protestants and mormons, by the canonical processes in the 3rd and 4th centuries, well after a “great apostasy” was to have taken place. And according to mormons that Church had not yet been restored.
Edited to add: By the way, I found an amazing large amount of similarities between actual scriptures and “scripture” written by mormons in the 1800s when I was researching Joseph Smith’s prophesies. It looked very much like it was the Bible written from memory.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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hosemonkey
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It is my judgement that we catholics have come up against “invincible ignorance” in the persons of the mormon posters here, and the general run of mormons. I think that they are probably the province of sociologists or perhaps anthropologists who study the tribes of the Amazon or perhaps New Guinea. Could I go so far as to call it a “Utah Cargo Cult?” Their beliefs are strange enough to perhaps open up a new field of wierdness and would be a very good subject for a doctorate. In the the beginning, I thought mormons to be just a little off center regarding their theology. I have since found out that, at least for the mormons on this forum, they have got the National Inquirer beat hands down! Wandering John and the three nephites! Sounds like a good name for a rock band. Please mormons, please do not think that I am making fun of you, 'cause I am.
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