Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

[Prodigal_Son1]

They apostatized because they had not undrstood His teaching.

zerinus

I have a “real” apostasy from the Gospels I’d be interested in seeing a mormon response too.

Chapter 6 of the Gospel of John describes an apostasy by many of the followers of Jesus because they refused to accept His teaching on the Eucharist. Many of Jesus’ disciples walked away because they wouldn’t accept His teaching that they must eat His body and drink His blood. They apostasized because they wouldn’t accpet the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Why do mormons follow the apostate disciples by rejecting the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

What did they misunderstand zerinus?

St. Paul, speaking of the chalice of benediction which they bless asks, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? He also asks, “…the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?” No symbolism here, St. Paul believed in the real presence of the Lord.

1Co 10:16 The chalice of benediction which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

Below, St. Paul instructs the Church of Corinth on the Eucharistic communion. He tells in verse 26, everytime you eat of the bread and drink of the chalice you show, or commemorate, the death of our Lord until he comes again.

Please note, St. Paul warns of receiving unworthily in verse 27. In verse 28, in St. Paul’s instructions to the Church, he tells the Church to let a man prove himself. Once a man has proved himself, to be a believer, let him eat of the bread and drink of the chalice. Now in verse 29, St. Paul feels the necessity to repeat his instructions in verse 27 by saying, for he that eat and drink unworthily does so at the risk of bringing judgement upon himself because they have not discerned the body of the Lord.

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread,
1Co 11:24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
1Co 11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

I see St. Paul believing what I believe Christ taught those who apostasized in John 6, that is the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Do mormons follow this teaching of Christ or do they follow those who apostasized in John 6?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[zerinus]

Protestants believe that also. You have to read the Bible in context. Who was being spoken too as well as the times it was being spoken. Notice how he spoke this as they left the temple?

You don’t need to “believe” anything. The context of the scripture tells you what it is referring to. Here is the verse in its greater context:

Luke 21:

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all * be fulfilled.*

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This makes it clear that it is about the Second Coming. It has nothing to do with the destruction of the Temple or of Jerusalem. Do you have a problem with English or what?

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

I have a “real” apostasy from the Gospels I’d be interested in seeing a mormon response too.

Chapter 6 of the Gospel of John describes an apostasy by many of the followers of Jesus because they refused to accept His teaching on the Eucharist. Many of Jesus’ disciples walked away because they wouldn’t accept His teaching that they must eat His body and drink His blood. They apostasized because they wouldn’t accpet the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Why do mormons follow the apostate disciples by rejecting the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

What did they misunderstand zerinus?

I know I am wasting my time talking to you; but just for the record:

John 6:

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

zerinus

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You don’t need to “believe” anything. The context of the scripture tells you what it is referring to. Here is the verse in its greater context:

Luke 21:

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all * be fulfilled.*

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This makes it clear that it is about the Second Coming. It has nothing to do with the destruction of the Temple or of Jerusalem. Do you have a problem with English or what?

zerinus

I said those chapters had a two fold prophesy in them. The time of the second coming was not revealed. Please note in the scriptures below, some verses are from the same chapters you quote.

I also, showed scriptures that shows only the Father in heaven knows the time of the second coming:

Mat 24:44 Wherefore be you also ready, because at what hour you know not the Son of man will come.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I know I am wasting my time talking to you; but just for the record:

John 6:

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

zerinus

This was not speaking about Christ’s flesh. One cannot know Jesus without the spirit, it cannot be known by any means of man.

Got to run, be back in a bit to continue the discussion.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[zerinus]

I said those chapters had a two fold prophesy in them. The time of the second coming was not revealed. Please note in the scriptures below, some verses are from the same chapters you quote.

I also, showed scriptures that shows only the Father in heaven knows the time of the second coming:

Now, with what the scriptures say above, do you believe Christ made a false prophesy or that he contradicted Himself?

Also, I’ve noted you posted comments in reference to some being un-charitable. Do you think asking me if I speak english or what is charitable? Do you think telling someone, “Your multitude of ignorance keeps showing up”, is charitable? Is this the teachings of mormons or is this your own tactic to make yourself seem right? I have to tell you, in my opinion, it takes away from any credibility in your arguments.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

Those verses you had quoted only say that no one knows the precise day and hour of the Second Coming. That did not mean that Jesus sould not make general predections about approximate time when it should havppen, or of the signs that should precede it, or the events that should follow it. The verses I had quoted fall into that category. They don’t attempt to predict of the day and the hour of the Second Coming.

zerinus

 

[PaulDupre]

God didn’t say that all churches were abominations. He said their creeds were abominations.

Every LDS missionary effort starts out with the declaration that our creed is an “abomination” and all of us who profess it are “corrupt”. This is plainly stated in your scriptures.

Abomination: a filthy, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.

Corrupt: 1. guilty of dishonest practices, as bribery; lacking integrity; crooked: a corrupt judge.
2. debased in character; depraved; perverted; wicked; evil

What part of our creed is filthy, shameful and detestable, BDawg? And why does our profession of the creed make us debased, depraved, perverted and wicked?

I really want to know.

The Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    one in Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.

    For us men and for our salvation
        he came down from heaven;
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
        he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
        he suffered, died, and was buried.

    On the third day he rose again
        in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
        and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
        and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
        and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Paul

 

[Stephen168]

This was not speaking about Christ’s flesh. One cannot know Jesus without the spirit, it cannot be known by any means of man.

We’ve had the conversation with him and he can’t support his position.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3623479&postcount=690

 

[ljahns]

It is not ugly and I’ve never seen an LDS person call into question the validity of that particular quote. We do however keep in mind the absolute nature of God’s perfection. He can’t accept error he forgives but does not accept sin. Thus all churches teaching incorrect things would be in error and their creeds an abomination . This does not exclude the positives in people. Adultery is a big sin yet Christ showed compassion to the women in adultury. He did not say hey its all good, but he did not say she was going to burn forever.

So yes the creeds where an abomination (they had errors), but such is not a condemnation of all people.

Abomination goes much farther than they had errors. Abomination is, according to the dictionary, and i quote “extreme disgust and hatred”. So, in my opinion, this is an ugly thing to say.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Your multitude of ignorance keeps showing up:

And your lack of Christian charity is astounding. You should take lessons from BDawg–at least he was open and answered questions charitably (yes, even mine ).

Yes, I’m still reading. What? You thought that I wasn’t? Is that why you singled me out? Sheesh.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Those verses you had quoted only say that no one knows the precise day and hour of the Second Coming. That did not mean that Jesus sould not make general predections about approximate time when it should havppen, or of the signs that should precede it, or the events that should follow it. The verses I had quoted fall into that category. They don’t attempt to predict of the day and the hour of the Second Coming.

zerinus

No they don’t predict the day or time, they do however say NO ONE knows when it will take place except the Father which is in heaven.

The rest of the story, we’ll have to disagree on I guess. I believe all those who heard the words have passed away and I also believe Christ never made a false prophesy or contradicted Himself.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[purduekenn]

**I thought that they do not believe in the trinity? I copied this from Wikipedia site about Mormons:
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
Latter Day Saints believe that both the Father and the Son have glorified physical bodies, and the Holy Ghost has a body of spirit. The differences between the Mormon doctrine of the Godhead and that of Trinitarianism, have set Mormonism apart, **with the result that some Christian denominations reject Mormonism as being a branch of the Christian Faith.
I don’t understand how they say God the Father and the Son have glorified bodies as that is not in the Old or New Testament.
purduekenn - Christian Only

 

[RebeccaJ]

Those who act in that way for the most part are not genuine Cathlics at all. They are Mormon apostates who no more believe in Catholicism than they believe in Mormonism. They have merely chosen Catholicism as a suitable platform from which to bash Mormonism. They give the Catholic Church a bad name. Genuine Catholics don’t act in that way at all.

zerinus

z, you have said this so many times, why don’t you just stick it…er…in your blog and link it up whenever you feel the need?

 

[1holycatholic]

You don’t need to “believe” anything. The context of the scripture tells you what it is referring to. Here is the verse in its greater context:

The context of Scripture is the Catholic Church.

Try again.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

In doing a little “research” on the mormon faith, I came across an interesting passage from the book of mormon. It’s my understanding that mormons believe in the plurality of Gods. If this is so, can someone explain a passage from the book of mormon to me?

Alma 11:26-31

26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.
30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[PaulDupre]

**I thought that they do not believe in the trinity? I copied this from Wikipedia site about Mormons:
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
Latter Day Saints believe that both the Father and the Son have glorified physical bodies, and the Holy Ghost has a body of spirit. The differences between the Mormon doctrine of the Godhead and that of Trinitarianism, have set Mormonism apart, **with the result that some Christian denominations reject Mormonism as being a branch of the Christian Faith.
I don’t understand how they say God the Father and the Son have glorified bodies as that is not in the Old or New Testament.
purduekenn - Christian Only

Of course the Son (Jesus), since his resurrection and bodily ascension into heaven, has a glorified resurrected body. That is in the New Testament.

The problem with the Mormons is that they believe that God the Father is a resurrected human being who has not always been God but was once a mortal human man who progressed from mortality to godhood. This god worshiped another god, who worshiped another god, et cetera ad infinitum. They believe that the Father and the Son are two separate gods and that there are an infinite number of gods who rule an infinite number of worlds.

That is not a Christian belief.

Paul

 

[RC_Matt]

Of course the Son (Jesus), since his resurrection and bodily ascension into heaven, has a glorified resurrected body. That is in the New Testament.

The problem with the Mormons is that they believe that God the Father is a resurrected human being who has not always been God but was once a mortal human man who progressed from mortality to godhood. This god worshiped another god, who worshiped another god, et cetera ad infinitum. They believe that the Father and the Son are two separate gods and that there are an infinite number of gods who rule an infinite number of worlds.

That is not a Christian belief.

Paul

Mormonism is not even an Abrahamic faith (i.e., Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Bahai). Their concept of god(s) places them in their own unique category, like Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.

 

[BDawg]

In doing a little “research” on the mormon faith, I came across an interesting passage from the book of mormon. It’s my understanding that mormons believe in the plurality of Gods. If this is so, can someone explain a passage from the book of mormon to me?

Hi Prodigal,

Read the recent thread on “The Nature of God in Mormonism” to see some information on how Mormons view the Divine Unity. It seems to me that this information has been posted on this thread before, too.

 

[BDawg]

The context of Scripture is the Catholic Church.

Try again.

I like that. If we interpret a passage in a way that doesn’t convince you, you can argue that we are willfully misinterpreting. If one of us bends over backwards to show that the context of a verse supports a certain interpretation, all you have to do is say that the Catholic Church is the context, ergo you don’t have to explain anything! That’s great!

And you accuse us of “blind faith.”

 

[Nan_S]

Of course the Son (Jesus), since his resurrection and bodily ascension into heaven, has a glorified resurrected body. That is in the New Testament.

The problem with the Mormons is that they believe that God the Father is a resurrected human being who has not always been God but was once a mortal human man who progressed from mortality to godhood. This god worshiped another god, who worshiped another god, et cetera ad infinitum. They believe that the Father and the Son are two separate gods and that there are an infinite number of gods who rule an infinite number of worlds.

That is not a Christian belief.

Paul

Thanks, Paul.

This brings us right back to Isaiah, which Z casually dismissed as having been written with incomprehensible poetic language. I noticed none of our other Mormons addressed the issue, neither to support Z nor to give an alternative explanation. Here’s the primary passage from the KJV:

**Is 43:**10-13 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he.

It’s pretty plain to me, but then I’m not looking through a Mormon smoke-screen. What do you think?