Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

[Prodigal_Son1]

Hi Prodigal,

Read the recent thread on “The Nature of God in Mormonism” to see some information on how Mormons view the Divine Unity. It seems to me that this information has been posted on this thread before, too.

Thanks BDawg. I thought it might be but, with over 700 posts, I wasn’t going to dig it out.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[t68ware]

They are definitely Christian and many live good christian lives according to the New Testament.

I have spoken with a friend of mine who is LDS and he told me they deny the Trinity, which is one of the cornerstones of the Christian faith. How can you claim they are Christian when they deny the Holy Trinity?

 

[PaulDupre]

Thanks, Paul.

This brings us right back to Isaiah, which Z casually dismissed as having been written with incomprehensible poetic language. I noticed none of our other Mormons addressed the issue, neither to support Z nor to give an alternative explanation. Here’s the primary passage from the KJV:

**Is 43:**10-13 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he.

It’s pretty plain to me, but then I’m not looking through a Mormon smoke-screen. What do you think?

It would be hard to get more plain than that.

 

[1holycatholic]

I like that. If we interpret a passage in a way that doesn’t convince you, you can argue that we are willfully misinterpreting. If one of us bends over backwards to show that the context of a verse supports a certain interpretation, all you have to do is say that the Catholic Church is the context, ergo you don’t have to explain anything! That’s great!

And you accuse us of “blind faith.”

2 Tim 3:16-17:

All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Matthew 18:17:

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

1 Tim 3:15:

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies:

The truth is to be found nowhere else but in the Catholic Church, the sole depository of apostolical doctrine. Heresies are of recent formation, and cannot trace their origin up to the apostles.

You refuse to accept legitimate authority.

 

[BDawg]

**I thought that they do not believe in the trinity? I copied this from Wikipedia site about Mormons:
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
Latter Day Saints believe that both the Father and the Son have glorified physical bodies, and the Holy Ghost has a body of spirit. The differences between the Mormon doctrine of the Godhead and that of Trinitarianism, have set Mormonism apart, **with the result that some Christian denominations reject Mormonism as being a branch of the Christian Faith.
I don’t understand how they say God the Father and the Son have glorified bodies as that is not in the Old or New Testament.
purduekenn - Christian Only

Hi purduekenn,

If you read through the recent thread called “The Nature of God in Mormonism,” it will all be clarified for you.

 

[BDawg]

It would be hard to get more plain than that.

Regarding the Isaiah quotes: Why can’t it sink into anyone’s head that the LDS believe God is One? Is it so hard to try to understand something from someone else’s perspective?

 

[BDawg]

I have spoken with a friend of mine who is LDS and he told me they deny the Trinity, which is one of the cornerstones of the Christian faith. How can you claim they are Christian when they deny the Holy Trinity?

We don’t deny the Trinity. We just understand it differently than you. Try reading the recent thread on “The Nature of God in Mormonism” to understand this.

 

[PaulDupre]

I think it is more accurate to say that within the last decade or so, some Mormons have redefined the word trinity to mean multiple gods united in purpose. What you define now as trinity used to be called godhead.

Until just a few years ago, the only time Mormon GAs used the word trinity was to disparage it. Now, with Mormons trying to mainstream themselves into Christian society, they say “We believe in the trinity, too!” only it doesn’t mean what it has historically meant. I see that as an attempt to deceive the unwary into not understanding the differences between Christianity and Mormonism.

Now they try to pretend that they have always “believed in the trinity”. Those of us who were Mormon back in the day know better. I doubt that many modern Mormons have ever heard of your redefinition.

 

[Nan_S]

Regarding the Isaiah quotes: Why can’t it sink into anyone’s head that the LDS believe God is One? Is it so hard to try to understand something from someone else’s perspective?

If you told me that God is unique and apart from His creation (us), eternally unchanging since before time began, I would understand that. Where I get lost is when Mormons tell me about all of these human descendents who are born, exalted, and merge into the godhead, like an ever-expanding heavenly black hole.

On the one hand you would have me believe that Jesus is an exalted man who is the literal son of the Father, who was also an exalted man and the literal son of his father-god, who was another exalted man and literal son of yet another father-god, and so on, and so on, and all were the literal descendents of still another grandfather-god so far back we can’t even fathom it…

On the other hand, you would have me believe that all existing intermediate and yet-to-be-conceived future sons have always been “One” since before time began. That (as is said in Isaiah) none of these cascading fathers and sons were “formed” by their predecessors nor will they form their descendents who will join them in the godhead. That all of them as a collective group, including you and your unborn descendents who will also aspire to eventually join the godhead, are together “I am the first, and I am the last… I am the Lord and there is no other; besides me there is no God.” (Is 44:6, 45:5)

Hmmmm. Maybe “besides me there is no God” isn’t too far from what the Mormon prophets and apostles are claiming.

 

[BDawg]

What part of our creed is filthy, shameful and detestable, BDawg? And why does our profession of the creed make us debased, depraved, perverted and wicked?

Hi Paul,

Thanks for asking. You can read a summary of how LDS view the “creeds” in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article I have attached to this post.

Also, if you want to get deeper into it, there is a nice talk by Jack Welch on this topic available on the BYU TV website, here.

 

[BDawg]

I think it is more accurate to say that within the last decade or so, some Mormons have redefined the word trinity to mean multiple gods united in purpose. What you define now as trinity used to be called godhead.

Hi Paul,

This is not accurate. For instance, I just did a search for Trinity in the Journal of Discourses, and the first hit I pulled up was from a talk by Charles Penrose in 1880, JD vol. 22:91-93.
“Jesus Christ set the pattern. He went down into the river Jordan; he was baptised of John; he was raised up from the water, and then the Father testified that he was well pleased with him. The Holy Ghost descended in the sign of a dove, and the Father spoke from the heavens saying that he was well pleased. Now, here are the Holy Trinity all bearing witness to this ordinance—the Son in the water, the Holy Ghost descending, and the Father in the heavens uttering his voice saying, ‘This is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.’”
There are a bunch more like this from all over the JD. I can post some if you don’t believe me. Anyway, the truth is that we’ve been using the word “Trinity” all along to describe our belief, although we often point out that we don’t believe in the mainstream “Trinity” doctrine.

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for asking. You can read a summary of how LDS view the “creeds” in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article I have attached to this post.

Also, if you want to get deeper into it, there is a nice talk by Jack Welch on this topic available on the BYU TV website, here.

Thanks BDawg, but that doesn’t answer the question I asked. It answered the question "why don’t Mormons have a creed? I know you are supposed to only answer the questions you wish I had asked, but I would like an answer to the question I really asked:

"What part of our creed is filthy, shameful and detestable, BDawg? And why does our profession of the creed make us debased, depraved, perverted and wicked?"

Maybe some other LDS would like to offer an answer.

Paul

 

[BDawg]

If you told me that God is unique and apart from His creation (us), eternally unchanging since before time began, I would understand that. Where I get lost is when Mormons tell me about all of these human descendents who are born, exalted, and merge into the godhead, like an ever-expanding heavenly black hole.

On the one hand you would have me believe that Jesus is an exalted man who is the literal son of the Father, who was also an exalted man and the literal son of his father-god, who was another exalted man and literal son of yet another father-god, and so on, and so on, and all were the literal descendents of still another grandfather-god so far back we can’t even fathom it…

On the other hand, you would have me believe that all existing intermediate and yet-to-be-conceived future sons have always been “One” since before time began. That (as is said in Isaiah) none of these cascading fathers and sons were “formed” by their predecessors nor will they form their descendents who will join them in the godhead. That all of them as a collective group, including you and your unborn descendents who will also aspire to eventually join the godhead, are together “I am the first, and I am the last… I am the Lord and there is no other; besides me there is no God.” (Is 44:6, 45:5)

Hmmmm. Maybe “besides me there is no God” isn’t too far from what the Mormon prophets and apostles are claiming.

Yep. And you expect me to believe that three Persons are One Being. The difference is that I can understand why you came to that particular conclusion, given various metaphysical assumptions, whereas you can’t seem to get your head around the way we think about it. Of course, you conclude this means that our view is hopelessly contradictory. But since I don’t have any trouble understanding our viewpoint, I conclude that you maybe need to think a little harder and talk a little less.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for asking. You can read a summary of how LDS view the “creeds” in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article I have attached to this post.

Also, if you want to get deeper into it, there is a nice talk by Jack Welch on this topic available on the BYU TV website, here.

Your link references the Thirteen Articles of Faith and so I looked that up and read it. How is it not a creed? The reference makes a point of saying one of them is open ended, is this what justifies not calling it a creed? Really I see NO difference between all the “we believes” listed and any other Christian Creed. Nor do I see any appreciable difference between people saying the creed and testifying that the “the Church it true, Joesph Smith was a prophet” and so on. Your link compares it to the Islamic Shahada wich it claims is not considered a “creed”. Well Wiki calls it a creed and while I don’t think wiki is the end all in matters, it does show that there are different opinions on just what a creed is.

And like the polygamy/slavery point, I’ve asked before and not gotten an answer as to just what is wrong with the Nicene Creed.

 

[BDawg]

Thanks BDawg, but that doesn’t answer the question I asked. It answered the question "why don’t Mormons have a creed? I know you are supposed to only answer the questions you wish I had asked, but I would like an answer to the question I really asked:

I’m trying to honestly answer questions, Paul. I see no need to accuse me of dishonesty.

**

“What part of our creed is filthy, shameful and detestable, BDawg? And why does our profession of the creed make us debased, depraved, perverted and wicked?”

**
According to the sources I cited, the main problem with the creeds is that they stifle further revelation by setting beliefs in stone. Given the importance of “continuing revelation” to the LDS, this is truly an “abomination” to us.

Of course, we consider most of the creeds to contain some error, and some truth, but that isn’t such a big problem for us. We don’t believe we have everything right, yet, either! Again, the problem is taking some mixture of divine truth and fallible human intellect, and then setting it in stone so it cannot be improved upon.

To us, religion is supposed to bring us into communion with God, so we can receive revelations from Him and make His will and mind, ours. The purpose is not to allow us to pass some multiple choice test given at the Pearly Gates. So to us, the whole idea behind the creeds is an abomination. It wipes out the main reason from having a religion.

The source I attached also noted that Joseph Smith also said that a few wrong beliefs don’t make a bad man, etc. We have always said that adherents to other religions could well be just as good people as us.

 

[BDawg]

Your link references the Thirteen Articles of Faith and so I looked that up and read it. How is it not a creed? The reference makes a point of saying one of them is open ended, is this what justifies not calling it a creed? Really I see NO difference between all the “we believes” listed and any other Christian Creed. Nor do I see any appreciable difference between people saying the creed and testifying that the “the Church it true, Joesph Smith was a prophet” and so on. Your link compares it to the Islamic Shahada wich it claims is not considered a “creed”. Well Wiki calls it a creed and while I don’t think wiki is the end all in matters, it does show that there are different opinions on just what a creed is.

And like the polygamy/slavery point, I’ve asked before and not gotten an answer as to just what is wrong with the Nicene Creed.

Hi zaffirobirant,

The creeds God was talking about were not just statements of belief. Everyone has to have statements of belief. But like I said to Paul, to Mormons the main issue with the Christian creeds was the idea of finality behind them. We ain’t down wit dat.

 

[PaulDupre]

I’m trying to honestly answer questions, Paul. I see no need to accuse me of dishonesty.

I only “accused” you of being a good Mormon, one who only answers the questions I should have asked per the instructions of your GAs.

 

[PaulDupre]

According to the sources I cited, the main problem with the creeds is that they stifle further revelation by setting beliefs in stone. Given the importance of “continuing revelation” to the LDS, this is truly an “abomination” to us.

Of course, we consider most of the creeds to contain some error, and some truth, but that isn’t such a big problem for us. We don’t believe we have everything right, yet, either! Again, the problem is taking some mixture of divine truth and fallible human intellect, and then setting it in stone so it cannot be improved upon.

To us, religion is supposed to bring us into communion with God, so we can receive revelations from Him and make His will and mind, ours. The purpose is not to allow us to pass some multiple choice test given at the Pearly Gates.

That is a horribly unfair mis-characterization of our faith.

So to us, the whole idea behind the creeds is an abomination. It wipes out the main reason from having a religion.

So that makes the creed filthy, shameful and detestable? And our profession of the creed make us debased, depraved, perverted and wicked? I think your god overreacts like a teenage girl.

The source I attached also noted that Joseph Smith also said that a few wrong beliefs don’t make a bad man, etc. We have always said that adherents to other religions could well be just as good people as us.

Except that we are debased, depraved, perverted and wicked. Thanks a lot.

(Your god said it, not me)

 

[zaffiroborant]

Hi zaffirobirant,

The creeds God was talking about were not just statements of belief. Everyone has to have statements of belief. But like I said to Paul, to Mormons the main issue with the Christian creeds was the idea of finality behind them. We ain’t down wit dat.

Well I see finality in your 13 statements? I’m feeling evaded

Which creeds is God talking about? A straightforward reading of JS says all of them.

And a creed is a statement of belief, according MW on line:

1: a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2: a set of fundamental beliefs; also : a guiding principle

Your first sentence says the NC is not just a statement of belief but 13 is, how so?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Mormons do not recognize Cathlic baptism.

zerinus

Mormons do not know Christ as God why bother with what they think?

Do you really think they have given any indication of properly interpreting Scripture or Tradition or given any real consideration to the ECFs writings? Lets be honest now: they do not confess Jesus as God. Its the most basic precept of CHRISTianity and they got it wrong. Their words are void and hollow.