Are Lutherans closer to RCC rather than Reformed/Calvinists?

[Arcadian]

Hello

I have been told by a close Roman Catholic friend of mine that Lutherans did not abolish the Mass and retained most of the liturgy and vestments unlike the Reformed/Calvinist branch of Protestantism.

Plus,it was a Lutheran church which has been visited by both pontiffs;pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI during their visits to Warsaw in Poland for an ecumenical prayer meeting…And there was a large crucifix life-size in the Lutheran altar which is uncommon for Protestant churches…

And almost all Lutheran churches in Germany have crucifixes…

Can we say Lutheranism is closer to Roman Catholic faith and worship …rather than Reformed/Calvinist churches?

I thought there was an other thread on the forum about the differences between Luther and Calvin…

And some Lutherans along with Anglicans/Episcopalians are accused of being ‘catholic-lite’ and ‘romish’ by Protestants…

So is it easier to have an ecumenical dialogue with Lutherans ?

Peace and blessings

Thomas

 

[JonNC]

Hello

I have been told by a close Roman Catholic friend of mine that Lutherans did not abolish the Mass and retained most of the liturgy and vestments unlike the Reformed/Calvinist branch of Protestantism.

Plus,it was a Lutheran church which has been visited by both pontiffs;pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI during their visits to Warsaw in Poland for an ecumenical prayer meeting…And there was a large crucifix life-size in the Lutheran altar which is uncommon for Protestant churches…

And almost all Lutheran churches in Germany have crucifixes…

Can we say Lutheranism is closer to Roman Catholic faith and worship …rather than Reformed/Calvinist churches?

I thought there was an other thread on the forum about the differences between Luther and Calvin…

And some Lutherans along with Anglicans/Episcopalians are accused of being ‘catholic-lite’ and ‘romish’ by Protestants…

So is it easier to have an ecumenical dialogue with Lutherans ?

Peace and blessings

Thomas

Thomas,
Not to downplay the differences, I’d say Lutherans probably are closer in belief, notably in our shared (yet slightly different) belief in the real presence. In addition, Luther’s Mass is based on the Catholic Mass.

You might try the USCCB website for a list of the joint statements between Lutherans and Catholics over the last 50 years.
Jon

 

[gcnuss]

I have been told by a close Roman Catholic friend of mine that Lutherans did not abolish the Mass and retained most of the liturgy and vestments unlike the Reformed/Calvinist branch of Protestantism.

This is from the Augsburg Confession, written in 1530, the primary statement of Lutheran belief and practice.

Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us, and celebrated with the highest reverence. Nearly all the usual ceremonies are also preserved, save that the parts sung in Latin are interspersed here and there with German hymns, which have been added to teach the people. For ceremonies are needed to this end alone that the unlearned be taught [what they need to know of Christ]. And not only has Paul commanded to use in the church a language understood by the people 1 Cor. 14:2,9, but it has also been so ordained by man’s law. The people are accustomed to partake of the Sacrament together, if any be fit for it, and this also increases the reverence and devotion of public worship. For none are admitted except they be first examined. The people are also advised concerning the dignity and use of the Sacrament, how great consolation it brings anxious consciences, that they may learn to believe God, and to expect and ask of Him all that is good. [In this connection they are also instructed regarding other and false teachings on the Sacrament. This worship pleases God; such use of the Sacrament nourishes true devotion toward God. It does not, therefore, appear that the Mass is more devoutly celebrated among our adversaries than among us.

You will find a variety of worship experiences among Lutheran churches, from high church liturgies which are much like the Catholic Mass to contemporary liturgies which are far less formal.

Plus,it was a Lutheran church which has been visited by both pontiffs;pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI during their visits to Warsaw in Poland for an ecumenical prayer meeting…And there was a large crucifix life-size in the Lutheran altar which is uncommon for Protestant churches…

And almost all Lutheran churches in Germany have crucifixes…

In my experience, most Lutheran churches in the US have plain crosses. However, there are some that do have a crucifix. My preference would be to have a crucifix, but many Lutherans still think that is “too Catholic.”

Can we say Lutheranism is closer to Roman Catholic faith and worship …rather than Reformed/Calvinist churches?

Perhaps, but with the realization that there are significant theological differences that are unresolved and that are far more important that liturgical style. But, we pray that these may in time be overcome.

And some Lutherans along with Anglicans/Episcopalians are accused of being ‘catholic-lite’ and ‘romish’ by Protestants…

I have had the experience of being accused of being “too Catholic” because I believe that the Eucharist should be celebrated weekly.

So is it easier to have an ecumenical dialogue with Lutherans?

I hope so.
[/quote]

 

[LutheranDK]

I have had the experience of being accused of being “too Catholic” because I believe that the Eucharist should be celebrated weekly.

You mean, that is not the general state of things? How often is Holy Communion celebrated?

Here in Denmark, all Lutheran churches celebrate Holy Communion at High Mass weekly - even the places where the “pastors” are blind guides, and/or women…
(it then remains a theological discussion whether or not Holy Communion is ACTUALLY celebrated by a so-called “woman pastor” or not. I say “no”).

I can’t imagine High Mass without Holy Communion! It is the highlight of the Mass

 

[grampben]

I don’t know where this idea comes from that frequent communion = too catholic.
Most baptists and brethren practise it weekly!

 

[JonNC]

I don’t know where this idea comes from that frequent communion = too catholic.
Most baptists and brethren practise it weekly!

Baptists?? That’s not been my experience on this side of the pond. Quarterly, sometimes monthly. But I agree with you about “frequently” = “Catholic”. “Frequently” = “what Christ said”

Jon

 

[grampben]

Baptists?? That’s not been my experience on this side of the pond. Quarterly, sometimes monthly. But I agree with you about “frequently” = “Catholic”. “Frequently” = “what Christ said”

Jon

Not neccessarily within a service. It tends to be once a month within a service, but usually there is a small service after the main service where communion is distributed. It tends to be the convention in most Irish baptist churches.
But then, baptists are congregationalists, so it varies

 

[gcnuss]

You mean, that is not the general state of things? How often is Holy Communion celebrated?

It depends on the congregation. For a variety of reasons, many have not celebrated each Lord’s Day. Some of it goes back to the frontier days when one pastor served a number of congregations and communion was only celebrated on the Sundays when he was at the congregation. That became a set pattern and, over time, became the norm.

A second reason for less than weekly communion was a strong pietistic influence among some Lutherans. They focused more on personal piety and less on sharing the Sacrament. (That’s an extreme simplification.)

A third reason is the cock-eyed notion that weekly celebration of the Eucharist is “too Catholic.” I was told by one sweet old lady that “if you have communion every week that’s a Catholic Mass and I’m not Catholic!”

Thankfully, there is a trend back toward weekly communion, but there is still resistance among the laity. I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead some folks out of their current mindsets on the issue.

I can’t imagine High Mass without Holy Communion! It is the highlight of the Mass

Agreed!!

 

[Reg21]

In a sense, Lutherans are closer to RCC than Reformed. On the surface, Lutheran worship looks like Catholic worship. Among Confessional Lutheran churches, you will find this statement of the Augsburg confession upheld faithfully:

We do not abolish the Mass but religiously retain and defend it. Among us the Mass is celebrated every Lord’s Day and
on other festivals, when the Sacrament is made available to those who wish to partake of it, after they have been examined
and absolved. We also keep traditional liturgical forms, such as the order of readings, prayers, vestments, and other
similar things.

Luther did not change practice unless the practice violated Scripture. For example, he removed some consecration prayers based on the idea that Christ was re-offered as another sacrifice for more sins, as though his work on the cross was incomplete and the priest must crucify him again and again in mass.

Luther’s reform was a conservative reform intended to correct abuses introduced by scholastics and by the worldly political aspirations of the Vatican. He abandoned only what contradicted Scripture. If God looks at us and sees only Christ’s perfection, then purgatory and reverence of Mary and the saints don’t make much sense, and wrongly emphasize works.

I’m told that Catholic dogmas do not change, and the Lutheran Confessions have remained unaltered since the 16th century, so we are no closer on doctrine than we were since then. The Confessional Lutheran doctrines are easily enough determined. Read the book of concord, and check www.bookofconcord.com for discussions. Catholic descriptions of Lutheran doctrine are often incorrect, and the joint declarations were entered by Lutheran bodies that no longer subscribe to the Confessions.

As far as Calvinism goes, they invented a host of new beliefs contradicted by scripture. As far as I can tell, I don’t think a Calvinist can be assured that Christ in fact died for him. Lutherans reject that of course, as he atoned for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Arcadian]

Well of course there are different ‘Lutherans’ ;liberal ELCA and conservative evangelical Lutheran church bodies; LCMS and WELS (Confessional Lutherans which adhere to the Book of Conford,The Augsburg Confession and Catechisms etc.) are closer to Roman Catholic Church as confessional Lutherans are opposed to female clergy and blessings of the same sex couples…and they are less influenced by Pietism

 

[spoiltvictorian]

I am Lutheran converted from Calvinism. Because the Sacraments are so important, I feel I am much closer to Catholicism now.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Arcadian,

Since this is an opinion question; it is my opinion that the Lutheran faith is much closer to Catholicism than the reformed traditions. That is if you were referring to the more traditional Lutheranism.

They believe in Sacraments (though, correct me if I am wrong, just two; the Sacrament of the Alter and Baptism). They believe in the Real Presence and I am unable to find a difference in their views on Baptism and that of the Catholic view.

It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.** Luther’s Small Catechism**

I can go with that.

Because of the worship style (liturgical) I believe that a Catholic would feel much more comfortable in a Lutheran service than a reformed service.

To go into all the similarities would be grueling, so I won’t.

All of this does not mean there are no differences of course, but I think there are enough threads about those already.

God bless

 

[Peter_J]

Here in Denmark, all Lutheran churches celebrate Holy Communion at High Mass weekly - even the places where the “pastors” are blind guides

blind guides?

 

[Peter_J]

Reg21,

In general I would call that a very good post, but this I don’t get:

If God looks at us and sees only Christ’s perfection, then purgatory and reverence of Mary and the saints don’t make much sense, and wrongly emphasize works.

How does that imply that “reverence of Mary and the saints [doesn’t] make much sense”?

To me that’s like saying, “If God looks at us and sees only Christ’s perfection, then saying ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ doesn’t make much sense.”

 

[Contarini]

Hello

I have been told by a close Roman Catholic friend of mine that Lutherans did not abolish the Mass and retained most of the liturgy and vestments unlike the Reformed/Calvinist branch of Protestantism.

Plus,it was a Lutheran church which has been visited by both pontiffs;pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI during their visits to Warsaw in Poland for an ecumenical prayer meeting…And there was a large crucifix life-size in the Lutheran altar which is uncommon for Protestant churches…

And almost all Lutheran churches in Germany have crucifixes…

Can we say Lutheranism is closer to Roman Catholic faith and worship …rather than Reformed/Calvinist churches?

I thought there was an other thread on the forum about the differences between Luther and Calvin…

And some Lutherans along with Anglicans/Episcopalians are accused of being ‘catholic-lite’ and ‘romish’ by Protestants…

So is it easier to have an ecumenical dialogue with Lutherans ?

Peace and blessings

Thomas

In most areas, particularly questions of sacramental theology, Lutherans are closer to Catholicism. Soteriology is more complex. The Lutherans have a more radical doctrine of sola fide, while the Reformed have something closer to a Catholic doctrine of sanctification. However, they still insist on a sharp division between justification and sanctification, which they learned from the Lutherans, and they have furthermore introduced the innovation of “perseverance of the saints,” which makes predestination central to soteriology by affirming that only those God has chosen for final salvation ever experience regenerating grace. Also, they believe that regeneration precedes faith (logically, not chronologically), which again makes predestination far more important than it is in Catholic or Lutheran theologies.

Edwin

 

[Cluny]

J. S. Bach was a Lutheran, and the heading of his Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach went something like this: “A treasury of Christ’s teaching to be used as a charm against melancholy and Calvinism.”

 

[Fidelis]

Here, let me help you edit this a bit so that it is more accurate:

In a sense, Lutherans are closer to RCC than Reformed. On the surface, Lutheran worship looks like Catholic worship. Among Confessional Lutheran churches, you will find this statement of the Augsburg confession upheld faithfully:

We do not abolish the Mass but religiously retain and defend it. Among us the Mass is celebrated every Lord’s Day and
on other festivals, when the Sacrament is made available to those who wish to partake of it, after they have been examined
and absolved. We also keep traditional liturgical forms, such as the order of readings, prayers, vestments, and other
similar things.

Luther did not change practice unless** in his opinion **the practice violated Scripture. For example, he removed some consecration prayers based on his misperception that Catholics believe Christ was re-offered as another sacrifice for more sins, as though his work on the cross was incomplete and the priest must crucify him again and again in mass.

Luther **believed that his “reform” **was a conservative reform intended to correct abuses introduced by scholastics and by what he perceived as the worldly political aspirations of the Vatican. He abandoned only what in his personal opinion contradicted Scripture. If one holds to the error that God looks at us and **“sees” **only Christ’s perfection, then purgatory and reverence of Mary and the saints don’t make much sense, and wrongly emphasize works which of course is a complete misunderstanding on Catholic teachings regarding both works and purgatory.

I’m told that Catholic dogmas do not change, and the Lutheran Confessions have remained unaltered since the 16th century, so we are no closer on doctrine than we were since then. The Confessional Lutheran doctrines are easily enough determined. Read the book of concord, and check www.bookofconcord.com for discussions. Catholic descriptions of Lutheran doctrine are often incorrect depending which sect of Lutheranism one belongs to at any one time , and the joint declarations were entered by Lutheran bodies that no longer subscribe to the Confessions in the opinion of other Confessions.

As far as Calvinism goes, they invented a host of new beliefs contradicted by scripture. As far as I can tell, I don’t think a Calvinist can be assured that Christ in fact died for him. Lutherans reject that of course, as he atoned for the sins of the whole world.

There now! Isn’t that more honest and accurate?

 

[coda]

I am Lutheran converted from Calvinism. Because the Sacraments are so important, I feel I am much closer to Catholicism now.

Why didnt{dont} you become Catholic?? There are five other sacraments that are as important. peace

 

[jblake]

Fidelis;:

There now! Isn’t that more honest and accurate?

Only if one is a PR flunky, intent on misrepresentation of what the company that pays them.

jonathon

 

[IowaJay]

Well of course there are different ‘Lutherans’ ;liberal ELCA and conservative evangelical Lutheran church bodies; LCMS and WELS (Confessional Lutherans which adhere to the Book of Conford,The Augsburg Confession and Catechisms etc.) are closer to Roman Catholic Church as confessional Lutherans are opposed to female clergy and blessings of the same sex couples…and they are less influenced by Pietism

Yes and no.

On the issues you have mentioned, yes, WELS and LCMS would be closer to the RCC (with the caveat that while there are some in the ELCA who want to legitimize same-sex blessings, the official policy of the ELCA is that they are not allowed). As to matters of ecclesiology, however, I think the ELCA and the state churches of Scandinavia are closer because LCMS and WELS are congregationalist, whereas the ELCA and the Scandanavian churches have an episcopal structure. The LCMS and WELS also still call the papacy the anti-christ.

The closest Lutherans to the RCC would be the self-described “evangelical catholics” who are high church ELCA and LCMS. The Society of the Holy Trinity, for example, is a ministerium made up of ELCA and LCMS clergy.

So, I don’t think it is possible to say one Lutheran group is much closer to the RCC than the other. As the late Jaroslav Pelikan (noted Lutheran historical scholar who translated many of Luther’s works into English) said - “when the LCMS became Baptist, and the ELCA became Methodist, I became Orthodox.” (I suspect the late RJ Neuhaus would say the same thing, as he made the similar path from the LCMS into the ELCA into Catholicism).