Are lying, cheating, deception, and the creation of illusions ever justifiable?

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Robert_Sock

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I’m talking about governments’ utilization of these usually immoral practices being used to protect a higher-order truth (e.g., religion and the World-to Come) and that promotes the overall welfare of humans and the advancement of this lowliest world?

I personally think that they can be, depending on the ultimate reality and the possible higher-ordered value of this lowliest world!
 
Robert, this page of the Catechism of the Catholic Church may answer some of your questions.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a8.htm

However, here lies a difficulty
The Lie Problem catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=242

Using an example to illustrate the chief difficulty, let’s consider the case of a man with a house guest whom a group of thugs wants to murder. The thugs come to the door. Because they don’t wish to create an outcry before they’re sure they’ve found their quarry (giving him time to escape, for example, from a neighboring house), they don’t force their way in to search. Instead, they knock on the door and simply ask whether their intended victim is within. Note that this case is not unlike the classic example of Christians hiding Jews from the Nazis. In both cases, the problem is simple: If you answer the door, and you don’t trust the thugs’ intentions, do you have to tell the truth?

The vast majority of well-formed Catholics would answer this question in the negative. Under these circumstances, it is perfectly permissible to deceive the thugs at the door."
 
Robert_Sock said:
I’m talking about governments’ utilization of these usually immoral practices being used to protect a higher-order truth (e.g., religion and the World-to Come) and that promotes the overall welfare of humans and the advancement of this lowliest world?

I personally think that they can be, depending on the ultimate reality and the possible higher-ordered value of this lowliest world!
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…what?

Can you give me a scenario in which the government is lying to protect religion? Perhaps I’m just not following you.

Like I have zero idea what this: “Higher-ordered value of this lowliest world!” is supposed to mean. :confused::confused::confused:
 
Trishie said:
Robert, this page of the Catechism of the Catholic Church may answer some of your questions.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a8.htm

However, here lies a difficulty
The Lie Problem catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=242

Using an example to illustrate the chief difficulty, let’s consider the case of a man with a house guest whom a group of thugs wants to murder. The thugs come to the door. Because they don’t wish to create an outcry before they’re sure they’ve found their quarry (giving him time to escape, for example, from a neighboring house), they don’t force their way in to search. Instead, they knock on the door and simply ask whether their intended victim is within. Note that this case is not unlike the classic example of Christians hiding Jews from the Nazis. In both cases, the problem is simple: If you answer the door, and you don’t trust the thugs’ intentions, do you have to tell the truth?

The vast majority of well-formed Catholics would answer this question in the negative. Under these circumstances, it is perfectly permissible to deceive the thugs at the door."
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I personally believe in a higher-ordered truth which is to be found only in God, and I cannot wait to get to Heaven to experience Truth, but where things get complicated is whether Christ would postpone exposing this highest Truth if it meant reducing the pain and suffering of mankind while we are living in this lowliest of worlds? If not, why is Christ postponing His Second Coming?

I admit it all depends on reality, which none of us can grasp while living in this world. But I believe God has a plan and all falsehood in this world will not interfere with His plan.

Again, I believe we are all to be pitied relative to Heaven and that which is to come in this lowly world, but that the falsehood we experience in this world during the present age is within the ultimate plan of God. Oh how I wish that Christ would come soon to put an end to all the falsehood, but I believe His postponement is in accord with the plan of our Heavenly Father.
 
BoomBoomMancini said:
…what?

Can you give me a scenario in which the government is lying to protect religion? Perhaps I’m just not following you.

Like I have zero idea what this: “Higher-ordered value of this lowliest world!” is supposed to mean. :confused::confused::confused:
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Such a scenario is what I just presented in the above post–that all the falsehood currently being used by governments is within God’s ultimate plan of our salvation.
 
The bottom line is that there are a lot of falsehoods being propagated by the governments of the world. The question I have is whether or not they are being allowed by our Heavenly Father in accordance with His ultimate plan of our salvation after the sin of Adam and Eve?
 
We all know that Satan is opposed to God and is the source of all falsehoods, but another question I have is whether or not God is entirely opposed to Satan? To say that He is, is to imply two Gods, does it not, when we all know that God is One.
 
It is my impression that when powerful people lie, cheat, and deceive, it is usually for selfish reasons, for example, to increase their personal wealth, to strengthen their power, or to attempt to bring honor upon themselves. They are not doing it out of love for God or man. Therefore I would say that it is not justified or justifiable, and it may well be sinful.

God can bring forth good from evil, but this does not in any way justify or absolve sinful acts.
 
Robert_Sock said:
We all know that Satan is opposed to God and is the source of all falsehoods, but another question I have is whether or not God is entirely opposed to Satan? To say that He is, is to imply two Gods, does it not, when we all know that God is One.
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Indeed, that may be another question. To say that God and Satan are opposing forces, like rivals, sounds a bit like the heresy of Gnosticism. You say correctly that there is one God who is the Lord and Master of all. In his infinite wisdom, he gave us free will and gave it to Satan as well. Satan does not cooperate in God’s plan. We humans cooperate some of the time, and even then only imperfectly. God’s power is sufficient to bring forth good from all of this.
 
Beryllos said:
It is my impression that when powerful people lie, cheat, and deceive, it is usually for selfish reasons, for example, to increase their personal wealth, to strengthen their power, or to attempt to bring honor upon themselves. They are not doing it out of love for God or man. Therefore I would say that it is not justified or justifiable, and it may well be sinful.

God can bring forth good from evil, but this does not in any way justify or absolve sinful acts.
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Could you ever see a government doing it to help promote the welfare of its citizens or to advance its society? Would you condone in such cases?
 
Robert_Sock said:
Could you ever see a government doing it to help promote the welfare of its citizens or to advance its society? Would you condone in such cases?
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No. Regardless of whether the government is benevolent or malevolent, citizens and society are better off when they have accurate, truthful information. I cannot imagine any circumstances in which they would benefit from a lie.
 
“Ever” takes in a lot of territory.

Illusions are created all the time in circuses, stage shows, cruise ships etc. this is perfectly ok.

As to deception, would you argue that Allied fakery to conceal the site of the D-Day invasion was somehow wrong?

ICXC NIKA
 
Robert_Sock said:
I’m talking about governments’ utilization of these usually immoral practices being used to protect a higher-order truth (e.g., religion and the World-to Come) and that promotes the overall welfare of humans and the advancement of this lowliest world?

I personally think that they can be, depending on the ultimate reality and the possible higher-ordered value of this lowliest world!
Click to expand...
The Holy Father ran into this frequently during his younger days under the Argentine dictatorship, where the Church sometimes safehoused people who were in jeopardy. What is often cited by theologians, concerning giving accurate information, is if the party in question has the right to know. If they do, then one is obliged by charity to tell. If they have no right to know, then there is no obligation for them to have correct information. This is why the beloved prostitute Rahab (Joshua ch 2) was praised in the scripture for having led men astray in order to protect the Israelite spies.

This is one of those areas where a person is required to use prudence depending on each situation
 
Beryllos said:
No. Regardless of whether the government is benevolent or malevolent, citizens and society are better off when they have accurate, truthful information. I cannot imagine any circumstances in which they would benefit from a lie.
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I personally believe you are grossly underestimating the deceptive powers of Satan and his deep influence of the mass media!
 
I would think that the government infiltration of terrorist organizations , foreign or domestic, using individuals under cover and professing pretend allegiance to such organizations, would be a totally legitimate use of governmental deception.
 
Robert_Sock said:
I personally believe you are grossly underestimating the deceptive powers of Satan and his deep influence of the mass media!
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I am not sure I see the connection between my posts and your response. I assure you, I do not grossly underestimate the deceptive powers of Satan, and particularly his deep influence of the mass media. What does that have to do with your hypothesis that the government may be justified in lying, cheating, deceiving, and creating illusions in order to help promote the welfare of its citizens or to advance its society?
 
Beryllos said:
I am not sure I see the connection between my posts and your response. I assure you, I do not grossly underestimate the deceptive powers of Satan, and particularly his deep influence of the mass media. What does that have to do with your hypothesis that the government may be justified in lying, cheating, deceiving, and creating illusions in order to help promote the welfare of its citizens or to advance its society?
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It all depends on who you think controls things here on earth. I was under the impression that Satan is the Prince of this world and that he has his hands in everything.
 
Robert_Sock said:
It all depends on who you think controls things here on earth. I was under the impression that Satan is the Prince of this world and that he has his hands in everything.
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And that justifies government lies and deception how? I’m still trying to connect this to your original post and the title you chose for the thread.
 
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