Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

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Very true Alex, but JonNC can correct me if I am wrong. Luther even though a believer in these doctrines would not have elevated them to dogma as a requirement of belief on the faithful. The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption would be totally up to the individual believer to discern it’s importance in their life, but both of these would be left outside the realm as a necessary belief for salvation.
That is a very good post which brings out some very good points on this subject. Nobody is denying that Mary was and is in a position of honor. But the point is that it isn’t appropriate or helpful to raise her to a status of near divinity. I think that the vast majority of the reformers saw it precisely this way including Luther.
 
Funny how these “mary” debates get so much attention. I was the poster who stated “wildly unbiblical” and agree that perhaps the word “wildly” was a bit much. I stand by unbiblical, however.

To clarify: 1. I do not mean every Marian dogma. 2. By unbiblical I do not mean anti-bible, rather not based on the bible primarily.

For example, the assumption. It is not anti-bible, but it is unbiblical. One can only loosely support this dogma with the bible.

why this should offend a Catholic is beyond me. You do not believe in sola-scriptura, and it therefore is not necessary for the dogma to be based primarily on the bible.

Many devout Catholics can agree with this position easily. It is not offensive or unCatholic when you understand what was meant by the terms.

don’t get too caught up on unbiblical. 👍
 
Remember, the most debated teachings are of the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s Assumption. Since these declarations were made under the then newly conceived Pope Infallibility, and under very suspicious voting conditions (read the transcripts about the whole council proceedings), one should not be surprised that there is the greatest push back on these two teachings.

And since the Church will defend its “past precedence” vehemently rather than review and admit that perhaps the men involved in that particular discourse were not lead by the Holy Spirit, it will never reverse its teaching.

Previous posts showing Scripture passages mentioning Mary, will not show any direct referential support therein for these two teachings. Parallel philosophical hypothesis (comparing Mary to Arc Of Covenant) are just that … hypothetical rumination.

So, once again we fall back on Church Tradition and teaching therein. Since the Church mandates acceptance of all dogma, as a matter of faith…well, there you go. Again, I don’t worry much about all this as Marian teachings have virtually nothing to do with my personal salvation or following my own personal and community pathway to holiness. Thus, I can live with it being inside the Faith and wait until the judgement day to be further enlightened. I do tend to get agitated when I see our parish support pageantry for Our Lady of Guadeloupe observance that is more ostentatious than even Easter Vigil. If one only viewed our parish from the outward trappings, it would most likely seem that we do more than just honor her.

Marian doctrine is certainly no reason to separate Christian religions.
Wow that almost sounds Lutheran.
 
The Immaculate Conception defeats this “communistic” man made ideology, by making it a doctrine that God has intervened with our humanity in time through the blessed Virgin Mary. Those who deny this revealed and defined doctrine, deny God’s intervention with our humanity through Immaculate Mary. Thereby leaving this later position watered down from the Apostolic Traditions and mystical revelations of Jesus Christ being born. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception will forever defeat such man made doctrines in every age past, present and future.
Hi Gabriel-

I don’t quite understand what you are getting at here. Why would the dogma of the Immaculate Conception defeat such man made doctrines? Is the birth of Christ not enough evidence of God’s intervention with our humanity? Is the belief in the sinlessness of Mary necessary and denial of this sinlessness is necessarily equated with the denial of Christ?
 
Funny how these “mary” debates get so much attention. I was the poster who stated “wildly unbiblical” and agree that perhaps the word “wildly” was a bit much. I stand by unbiblical, however.

To clarify: 1. I do not mean every Marian dogma. 2. By unbiblical I do not mean anti-bible, rather not based on the bible primarily.

For example, the assumption. It is not anti-bible, but it is unbiblical. One can only loosely support this dogma with the bible.

why this should offend a Catholic is beyond me. You do not believe in sola-scriptura, and it therefore is not necessary for the dogma to be based primarily on the bible.

Many devout Catholics can agree with this position easily. It is not offensive or unCatholic when you understand what was meant by the terms.

don’t get too caught up on unbiblical. 👍
I think the problem isn’t with the Catholics (at least not lately IMO) taking the unbiblical thing out of context. It appears to me that we are mearly defending our doctrines against others who do believe sola scriptura.
 
If I might interject on behalf of Hesychios here . . . 🙂

Byzantine theology does not accept an Original Sin that is anything other than the inherited consequences of the sin of Adam, most of all, death.

When Hesychios said what he said, he was affirming that no one has a “stain of sin” on their souls when they are conceived. It was because of the absence of that idea of Original Sin in the East that we never saw a movement to have the Conception of the Mother of God declared to be free from such sin.

Now the East does affirm that the Conception of the Mother of God was holy and that she was conceived in holiness in view of her exalted role in salvation history. This is why the feast of her Conception is celebrated in the East (as is also that of St John the Baptist).

She was “All-Holy” and dynamically grew in sanctity. As a result, she felt no pain in giving birth to Christ and her death was so light and sweet that it is referred to as the 'Dormition" or “Falling Asleep.”

In no way, then, has Hesychios separated himself from anything!

Alex
Good explanation Alex. Thanks
 
And how many times is Philip, an apostle, one sent by Christ to baptize and die for the Gospel, mentioned “beyond the book of Acts”. Does this minimize his contribution to the kingdom?
Interesting point PR, but I don’t think it necessarily parallels. In order for it to really be a good comparison, you would have to look for the same type of devotion given to Philip. Last time I checked, Bernadette saw Mary not Philip, and the Carmelites were devoted to Mary not Philip, etc.

I don’t think that the point is necessarily that Mary should be made less because of her lack of mentions post Acts, but only speculating that if the 1st century church had as much devotion for her as the church of today, wouldn’t we think that there would be a couple of honorable mentions by Paul.
 
You stated Personally, I think it is quite enough that Mary was the mother of Christ and that this alone merits reverence and honor.…so, in your own little way, out of the goodness of you heart, what have you done to give Mary such reverence and honor you are stating here? Have you, in all your years of existence, even said a simple “thank you” to here to bearing the Saviour, for bringing Him to the world?
Wow that seems a little harsh.
 
Catholics do not really place much focus upon Mary, at least not as much as as the Fundamentalists allege. I can prove what I say, but you have no prove of what you allege.
Funny how one might get that impression. With in 12 miles of my home there are about 10 maybe 12 Roman Catholic Churches. 6 of them are all named Our Lady of…, followed by others named St Mels, St Bridget, St John Eudes, St Joseph. 🙂
 
Wow, I leave for two days and come back to find flying pink elephants and Goldilocks determining what is just right…lol

mortonsam, allow to repeat a previous argument of mine that no one has yet responded to:

Would you approach any King (or other head of state) on earth without first going to an intermediary of some sort? And would you not want that intermediary present with you when you did see the king so that he/she could support you in your petition?

So if you would not approach an earthly king without help, why do you think it wise to approach the King of Kings without an intermediary?

That is the role which Mary plays in salvation. Do we HAVE to go through her? No. However the Church is very clear that it is wise to do so. In going to Mary, rather than directly to Jesus Christ, we are saying to our Lord that we are not worthy of an audience with Him. We are demonstrating both respect for His mother and for the precious gift of grace, as well as our humility.
So while Christ was alive none needed an intermediary, but now that He has risen, the rules have changed?
 
That is a very good post which brings out some very good points on this subject. Nobody is denying that Mary was and is in a position of honor. But the point is that it isn’t appropriate or helpful to raise her to a status of near divinity. I think that the vast majority of the reformers saw it precisely this way including Luther.
:confused: no Catholic i know raises Mary to a status of “near divinity.” not even close. if an angel can humble himself, and greet her with “hail Mary”, and if elizabeth can claim her Mother of God, then i see no reason we cannot do the same. we are giving Her the honor due to Her, and was pre ordained that she should receive. look how the ark was treated with the reverence due to it. it was also placed in the most sacred place of the temple. the Holy of Holies. now what does john see when the temple is opened? the ark of the covenant…but what john sees is not a gold covered vessel. he sees a person. a woman…hmmmm? you can read it in revelation if you care to. Peace 🙂
 
That is a very good post which brings out some very good points on this subject. Nobody is denying that Mary was and is in a position of hono

B]r. But the point is that it isn’t appropriate or helpful to raise her to a status of near divinity.
I think that the vast majority of the reformers saw it precisely this way including Luther.

This is your perception. And you are compounding the problem by refusing to listen to reason that is trying to correct your mis-perception. Isn’t this arrogance on your part? Would it not be more productive if you had cared to ask for an explanation first? As opposed to jumping to conclusions?
 
So while Christ was alive none needed an intermediary, but now that He has risen, the rules have changed?
no my friend. the rules have never changed. look at the widow, in the old testament that lost her son to sun stroke. the prophet interceded and prayed over the child, and God heard the prayer, and brought him back to life. look at the drought that came over the land of israel, i always get elijahs ministry and elishas ministry mixed up, so i cant remember which one this fell under. it did not rain until the prophet interceded and prayed for it. in our time, i can ask you to pray for me. i can also ask those that have gone beyond to pray for me to Christ. we are one Church. God is the God of the living not the God of the dead. we have simply not had the veil lifted. they are much closer than us. they see with the eye, we see with faith. their prayers can aid us much. how much more the Blessed Mother, who is right there with her Son? Peace 🙂 p.s. we can also look at moses and his many intercessions for israel. no one accuses the Jews of giving him too much honor. nor should they. Peace 🙂
 
Funny how these “mary” debates get so much attention. I was the poster who stated “wildly unbiblical” and agree that perhaps the word “wildly” was a bit much. I stand by unbiblical, however.

To clarify: 1. I do not mean every Marian dogma. 2. By unbiblical I do not mean anti-bible, rather not based on the bible primarily.

For example, the assumption. It is not anti-bible, but it is unbiblical. One can only loosely support this dogma with the bible.

why this should offend a Catholic is beyond me. You do not believe in sola-scriptura, and it therefore is not necessary for the dogma to be based primarily on the bible.

Many devout Catholics can agree with this position easily. It is not offensive or unCatholic when you understand what was meant by the terms.

don’t get too caught up on unbiblical. 👍
thank you for the clarification my friend. but im glad you put it the way you did. this is always a good topic to discuss. we can all learn something more to help us grow. i think however we have a more solid biblical base than many protestants would believe. for example, the ark of the covenant held the manna, the staff of aaron, and the tablets of the law. Mary carried within her womb, the Bread of Life, our High Priest, and the Giver of the law. just as the ark of the covenant was in the hill country of judea for 3 months, so was our Lady, in the hill country with elizabeth for three months. both were greeted with much happiness and celebration. there are more parallels between the ark and the Blessed Mother. so many more, that that to deny that the ark typified Mary, who would bear the Messiah, is pretty much impossible for anyone who has studied the issue. Mariology is also important, because it is almost always the first belief most protestants will attack. it is also in most cases the last hurdle for most converts to Catholicism to overcome. not for myself, because i was fortunate enough to have the Holy Spirit bring me to this before i ever entered a Catholic sanctuary. this and many other things. the Catholic Church only confirmed that which i was shown. Peace and prayers for you and yours. 🙂
 
freef,

Then where is salvation history being recorded now after Revelations?

The response to the Bible is the Church starting at Pentecost. The life of Christians did not end with Revelations. There was no Bible for 300 years after the resurrection and ascension of Christ into heaven. So how did the people make it? What was going on with the early Christians who had no bibles?

Do you think that, in consideration to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the liberation from bondage to sin…and to the power of the state over the human being…that people would want to form a church and document all the great good Christ was continuing to do in peoples’ lives through the Holy Spirit?
 
Interesting point PR, but I don’t think it necessarily parallels. In order for it to really be a good comparison, you would have to look for the same type of devotion given to Philip. Last time I checked, Bernadette saw Mary not Philip, and the Carmelites were devoted to Mary not Philip, etc.
I think you’re taking my argument too far.

morton’s position is: one’s importance in Christianity ought to be measured by how often someone is mentioned in Scripture.

My argument: many, many important saints, martyrs, evangelists are not mentioned more than once or twice in Scripture; to wit: St. Philip.

To state that someone needs to be mentioned past a certain book in Scripture in order to determine one’s importance is arbitrary. Not to mention, un-biblical.
I don’t think that the point is necessarily that Mary should be made less because of her lack of mentions post Acts, but only speculating that if the 1st century church had as much devotion for her as the church of today, wouldn’t we think that there would be a couple of honorable mentions by Paul.
Why would that be necessary? Who determined this criterion? :confused:
 
Reading some of these postings leads me to add these notations to my earlier posting.
**
3. If the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were so essential in the early and medieval church why was it not until 1854 and 1950 that those two doctrines were defined and declared as official dogma of the church?**
It wasn’t because the Church had her doubts, if this is what you suppose. The Church has never felt any need to formally define anything unless compelled to. It wasn’t until 325 A.D. that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity (Three divine Persons in one God) was defined as dogma by the Church at the Council of Nicea. It was time for the Church to settle with the confusion created by the heretical teachings that had appeared until then since the 2nd century and infected the orthodox faith. The major forces to be reckoned with were Monarchianism (Modalism or the Sabellian heresy), Unitarianism ( a form of Dynamic Monarchianism), and Arianism. A dogma is a confirmation and assurance that what has been taught by the Ordinary Magisterium is a true teaching of the Church and a revelation from God that must be assented to by all Christians.

In 1854, Pope Pius lX felt compelled to define the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception as dogma in the wake of the growing opposition to this traditional teaching in modern Protestantism. The Church certainly never invented this doctrine in the 19th century. The Popes and Councils of previous centuries had explictly referred to this teaching in their pronouncments: Pope St. Martin 1, Lateran Synod, Canon 3 on the Trinity [649]; Pope Sixtus lV, Constitutions Cum Praeexcelsa [1476] (The year the Feast of the Immaculate Conception was established), Grave Nimis [1483]; Pope Paul lll, Council of Trent, Decree on Original Sin [1546]; Pope St. Pius V, Bull *Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus *[1567]; Pope Alexander Vll, Bull Sollictudo Omnium Eccl. [1661].

It appears that the doctrine of the Assumption was defined as dogma in 1950 partly as a means to call the increasing number of wayward Catholics back to practicing their faith and living a life of Christian virtue by drawing their attention to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Mercy, with the rise of atheism, rationalism, indifferentism, materialism, and sacrilege - all which had to be opposed by this definition that diverts us back to the divine mysteries and the truth of the resurrection of the dead. There was also much calamity in the Church at the time and Catholic piety had to be restored to order through a profound reflection on our Blessed Mother, the archetype of the Church in her virtues. According to the life of St. Theodosius, the Feast of the Assumption was celebrated in Palestine before the year 500. Eastern Catholics had privately celebrated this feast before the Councils of Ephesus (431) and Chalcedon (451). The first early Church Father to refer to this event was St, Epihanius in the late 4th century. He came from Palestine and was aware of the private tradition there, although he was uncertain of whether Mary had died or not before being assumed into heaven body and soul. It isn’t until the end of the Patristic period (6th -8th centuries) that we have sermons on the Assumption given by several Church Fathers. It became a universal feast in the Catholic Church in the late 6th century.
** 4. When Paul mentions in Galatians that Christ was ‘born of a woman’ that doesn’t (in my view) add to the argument that Mary should be venerated as she is today.** That was Paul’s opportunity to add more in recognition or praise of Mary, which apparently he chose not to do. He didn’t even mention her by name.
But Luke records much about Mary in his gospel, and he was a companion of Paul. The apostle preached much more than he had written in his few pastoral letters. He obviously introduced his companion Luke to the Marian traditions of the faith before he wrote his gospel (cf. Lk 1:1-4). Luke recorded and intended to teach what the apostle Paul had orally preached and believed about the Blessed Virgin Mary.

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter.* Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him (Paul).*** Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon his breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus."**Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [inter A.D. 180/190] **

Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, who was appointed Bishop of Smyrna by John, so he was well-informed by the time he became the Bishop of Lyons in Gaul.

So much for plan B. 😃

PAX :heaven:
 
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