Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

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I’m not referring to some of the professional and traditional leadership among conservative Anglicans, Lutherans and Reformed, although many of them are very skeptical when it comes to traditional doctrine. Have you read the books of - hm! - what is his name? - that prolific Episcopal Bishop of Newark (as I recall). Haven’t read his numerous books for years so his name slips my mind. I have several of his books somewhere in my ‘library’ but won’t take time to locate them at the moment.
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** I know well numerous mainline Protestants and they include many 'liberal Protestants'. These include devout Christians, but Christians who look at strict doctrine as of far less importance than seeking to follow the moral teachings and example of Christ. **Some are intellectuals who are acquainted with modern 'higher criticism', who are aware - for example - of the four 'JEPD' sources and literary styles of the Torah, who know about the various sources of the Gospels, who have read the non-canonical books that have had such powerful influence upon non-Biblical traditions that became part of Catholicism, who have knowledge of the Church Fathers, of church history and all the fiery controversies over early 'heresies', etc. Visit nearly any mainline seminary - Harvard, Yale, Duke, Garrett, SMU, Candler (ar Emory), Union, Claremont, and many, many more - and you will understand all this better. Seminarians at such graduate schools are taught all this and more. Their Christianity is not dented, but they are likely to abandon their surface understanding learned in Sunday School and go behind the scenes and study scripture and theology in a much deeper way.  

 Actually, a high percentage of Catholics have a similar 'liberalist' approach, I receive  seven Catholic periodicals and recall being surprised to read a poll in the *US Catholic *.indicating that over half of all Catholics it polled (52% was it?) do not believe in transubstantiation, a central dogma of the Church, with an added percentage unsure. Traditionalist Catholics have their heads in the sand if they don;t see this. This doesn't mean they're not earnest disciples of Christ. They seek to live moral lives, stand in awe before God and share happily and generously to help others, admire fine priests, attend Mass with some regularity, and all that. Many others. of course, have left the Church (30 million in the US), some going to Protestant churches, etc.

  I don't recall that you ever responded to my question re Coptic Christians. The ones I happen to know are not under the Pope in Rome but under the Pope in Egypt, who traces his authority back to St. Mark. They seem to be the overwhelmingly majority of Christians in Egypt and I pray for their safety in these tumultous times in that ancient land.
Roy,

You are an enigma. Coptic Church was founded by Mark the Apostle. Coptic Catholic and Coptic Orthodox are divided. Coptic Orthodox have a “Pope”…not to be confused with the Bishop of Rome, first among equals…

I don’t understand who you are talking about concerning devout Christians. Who are they? They must have a name. They must have a website. Provide the names of some of these Churches or post their websites…I do not know what you are talking about…

I am not sure what you base your beliefs on. I receive no periodicals and look at no polls. What do I care what about people write in magazines or what polls are offered. Statistics are not the basis of belief for me.

Tell me who these mainline Churches are that you speak of.
 
CopticChristian
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My suggestion is that you become acqiainted with the thousands upon thousands of mainline Protestant congregations in the USA. They include Episcopal, Methodist, UCC, Presbyterian, Disciples of Christ, even many Lutheran and Baptist congregations. You appear to be quite unacquainted with this whole strata of churches, to which nearly every president of the US belonged.

 Obama - UCC. Bush II - Methodist. Clinton - Baptist, but attended Methodist church in DC with Hillary, a Methodist. Bush I - Episcopalian. Reagan - Presbyterian. Carter - Baptist. Ford - Presbyterian. Nixon - Friends (Quaker). Kennedy - Catholic. Eisenhower - Presbyterian. Truman - Baptist. Roosevelt - Episcopalian. Hoover - Friends. Coolidge - Congregationalist. Etc back to George Washington.

 Where have you lived? Where have you been? It's hard to believe that someone is acquainted with religion in the US and isn't familiar with this large group of liberal to moderate Protestants. These denominations cooperate together through the National Council of Churches. Globally, they are part of the World Council of Churches. In the USA about 52% of the population are Protestant, about 23% Catholic, and most of the rest unaffiliated. Eastern Orthodox, Jews, Muslims, etc., probably add up to about 5%.

  These mainline Protestant denominations permit wide variation among members. In a local Presbyterian congregation, for example, you may have strict believers, even fundamentalists, and also very liberal thinkers who may doubt such traditions the plagues recorded in Exodus or even the Virgin Birth of Jesus. 

 You believe that the Coptic Christian Pope is not the real Pope. The large majority of Coptic Christians disagree with you. 

 Maybe you should find a good seminary - Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, etc. - and take some courses. It would help you broader your understanding.

 God bless you - and everybody of every creed, color, culture and country.
 
CopticChristian
Code:
My suggestion is that you become acqiainted with the thousands upon thousands of mainline Protestant congregations in the USA. They include Episcopal, Methodist, UCC, Presbyterian, Disciples of Christ, even many Lutheran and Baptist congregations. You appear to be quite unacquainted with this whole strata of churches, to which nearly every president of the US belonged.

 Obama - UCC. Bush II - Methodist. Clinton - Baptist, but attended Methodist church in DC with Hillary, a Methodist. Bush I - Episcopalian. Reagan - Presbyterian. Carter - Baptist. Ford - Presbyterian. Nixon - Friends (Quaker). Kennedy - Catholic. Eisenhower - Presbyterian. Truman - Baptist. Roosevelt - Episcopalian. Hoover - Friends. Coolidge - Congregationalist. Etc back to George Washington.

 Where have you lived? Where have you been? It's hard to believe that someone is acquainted with religion in the US and isn't familiar with this large group of liberal to moderate Protestants. These denominations cooperate together through the National Council of Churches. Globally, they are part of the World Council of Churches. In the USA about 52% of the population are Protestant, about 23% Catholic, and most of the rest unaffiliated. Eastern Orthodox, Jews, Muslims, etc., probably add up to about 5%.

  These mainline Protestant denominations permit wide variation among members. In a local Presbyterian congregation, for example, you may have strict believers, even fundamentalists, and also very liberal thinkers who may doubt such traditions the plagues recorded in Exodus or even the Virgin Birth of Jesus. 

 You believe that the Coptic Christian Pope is not the real Pope. The large majority of Coptic Christians disagree with you. 

 Maybe you should find a good seminary - Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, etc. - and take some courses. It would help you broader your understanding.

 God bless you - and everybody of every creed, color, culture and country.
Roy,

I suggest you visit my thread marketing Jesus…These are the Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed websites I found. I believe that you are denigrating the Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed Christians that I do not agree with in Theology. I do see that they focus on Christ, are doctrinal, sacramental and liturgical. I was surprised to find that there is even an ecumenical spirit. You are wrong in my opinion. I suggest you visit these websites and tell me where there is an understanding that you are to be liberal in your thinking, belief and practice…

Anglican
anglicancommunion.org/index.cfm

Lutheran
sclutheran.com/

According to the above website there are three classes of Lutheran. For discussion sake I went to each of the websites and the marketing is honest…

Liberal or Progressive, such as the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) – elca.org/

Moderate, such as the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS) –
lcms.org/

Confessional, such as the Church of the Lutheran Confession (CLC)
clclutheran.org/

Reformed
World Council of Revormed Churches.

wcrc.ch/node/34

Reformed Church America

rca.org/discover

My search of these websites that represent what is believed and what is being marketed is a far cry from Roy…👍
 
CopticChristian
Code:
My suggestion is that you become acqiainted with the thousands upon thousands of mainline Protestant congregations in the USA. They include Episcopal, Methodist, UCC, Presbyterian, Disciples of Christ, even many Lutheran and Baptist congregations. You appear to be quite unacquainted with this whole strata of churches, to which nearly every president of the US belonged.

 Obama - UCC. Bush II - Methodist. Clinton - Baptist, but attended Methodist church in DC with Hillary, a Methodist. Bush I - Episcopalian. Reagan - Presbyterian. Carter - Baptist. Ford - Presbyterian. Nixon - Friends (Quaker). Kennedy - Catholic.** Eisenhower - Presbyterian. **Truman - Baptist. Roosevelt - Episcopalian. Hoover - Friends. Coolidge - Congregationalist. Etc back to George Washington.

 Where have you lived? Where have you been? It's hard to believe that someone is acquainted with religion in the US and isn't familiar with this large group of liberal to moderate Protestants. These denominations cooperate together through the National Council of Churches. Globally, they are part of the World Council of Churches. In the USA about 52% of the population are Protestant, about 23% Catholic, and most of the rest unaffiliated. Eastern Orthodox, Jews, Muslims, etc., probably add up to about 5%.

  These mainline Protestant denominations permit wide variation among members. In a local Presbyterian congregation, for example, you may have strict believers, even fundamentalists, and also very liberal thinkers who may doubt such traditions the plagues recorded in Exodus or even the Virgin Birth of Jesus.
** You believe that the Coptic Christian Pope is not the real Pope. The large majority of Coptic Christians disagree with you. **
Maybe you should find a good seminary - Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, etc. - and take some courses. It would help you broader your understanding.
Code:
 God bless you - and everybody of every creed, color, culture and country.
Roy, Roy, Roy…

Please…you forgot that Eisenhower was a Jehovah Witness and converted to Presbyterian in office. So you forgot to list the Jehovah Witness in your liberal group…

Now Roy, you asked me about the Coptics and then your liberal beliefs and persuasion turned against me…I do not believe that you are liberal for if you were you would accept what I said about the Coptics…your attack is not very liberal…
 
Mariology has been a stumbling block for me over the years…

Mary his mother apparently did not come to the tomb on that first Easter morning, Jesus didn’t seem to appear to her after his resurrection as he did to others.
I believe Mary did not go to the tomb on the first Easter morning because she already knew that her Son had risen from the dead. The women who did go to the tomb that early morning did not find out until they got there. Surely our Lord must have appeared to her first privately to alleviate the terrible grief she had felt and bring her joy. If he hadn’t, then we would have to question the divine perfection of our Lord’s love for his mother in his sacred humanity. In all probability, Mary must have waited for her Son to appear to her in the glorified flesh already knowing that he would rise from the dead, just as he alluded he would to his apostles, who still lost faith nonetheless, for which reason Jesus appeared to them after he had appeared to the women. Still the sorrow Mary felt was not that of a mother who had lost her child by his death. Rather the sorrow stemmed from his cruel and humiliating rejection by those whom Jesus died for out of his love for them. Mary’s faith never wavered in the least and was far stronger and more perfect than the faith her Son’s friends may have had in him, another reason why he would appear to his mother first. It was by her gift of faith that Mary was the first to receive our Lord physically in the private intimacy of her womb. And because of her faith, others have been able to receive him in their hearts.
While Mary is mentioned once in passing in Acts, the Pauline and other epistles do not mention her even once. You would think that if she was supposed to be so central in church doctrine and ritual that all these instructions sent to early Christians would have at least made mention of her.
Marian devotion originated in the nascent Church among the Palestinian Jewish converts to the Christian faith. It wasn’t until the 2nd century that it had spread to the Roman-Greco world and began to be embraced by the Hellenistic Jews and the Gentiles. The Gospel of Luke does indicate that our Marian traditions evolved from an affinity between the Judaic religious heritage and the newly found faith of the Palestinian Jewish converts who perceived the link between the OT and the NT. True, most of the apostles ventured beyond Palestine to preach the good news, but their primary mandate was to establish our Christological doctrines first before the more private traditions of the Church at Jerusalem could be introduced to communites that were relatively insensible to the fine points of Judaism. Nevertheless, the apostles could very well have mentioned Mary to some degree at their own discretion as they orally taught. They did preach much more than they had written. And only four apostles actually did write a gospel or an epistle. Given the context of the letters and the issues that had to be resolved in particular communities, Mary did not necessarily have to be mentioned. I attend Mass every Sunday, but I seldom hear her mentioned in a homily during the course of the liturgical year because of the context of the three readings of Scripture. It’s normally when we celebrate Mary’s feast days that she is given prominent attention in a sermon. But that does not mean our Marian doctrines hold no central place in the deposit of faith.
The passage in Revelation which the Church interprets as referring to Mary is questionable (at least in my mind). It could/should have been much clearer.
The symbolism in the Apocalypse is polyvalent, so the woman in Revelation 12 can represent Israel, the Church, and Mary in different aspects and from different perspectives. Whether Mary had actually appeared to John in his vision as a personified living symbol of Israel and the Church remains a theological opinion. As Daughter Zion and the New Eve, she could have been granted the privilege of actually appearing to John in her glorified state, for Mary is the prototype of the true Israel in the spirit and of the Church, the personification of these corporate entities.
A key verse challenging (again, in my mind) the perpetual virginity of Mary is Matt. 1:25. Most translations suggest that after the birth of Jesus Mary and Joseph lived the life of a husband and wife, including marital relations.
Matthew would have meant Mary and Joseph had no relations until after the birth of Jesus if that is what he wrote. But he writes “He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.” Notice that the evangelist does not incorporate the preposition “after” in this verse which could be syntactically used in the Greek. He does not write: “He had no relations with her until after (meta) she bore a son.” Instead he simply uses the word heos (until) which in its prepositional form always references the past meaning “up to the time of” a subsequent event. Matthew is affirming that Jesus was born of a virgin, so what he is actually saying is that Joseph had no relations with Mary before she bore Jesus. He does not even intend to imply that they had relations after our Lord’s birth. His concern is strictly with the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (7,14) which he quotes in v.23.

PAX
:heaven:
 
Roy the only thing unbiblical is the “doubt” in your mind, and thats created by loose interpretations of Scripture, wrongly taught and promoted for monetary gain today. It not only neglects Oral Tradition totally, and a Church that existed since Christ established it. It further reduced the reformers work to two simple beliefs of 1] The Cross, 2] The Holy Spirit at Pentecost, which today many would have you believe was the start of the Pentacostal Church of today. There resides the aspect which isn’t consistant with the Divine Circle which God created through the Holy Family and Apostles thus HIs Church, and gave all the “opportunity” to share in through Apostolic Succession, thus the FAMILY remember MARY, Gods Mother…FAMILY that sustains the life of the church through Gods Sacrements such as, here’s a lost concept…“Marriage”.

There is no Historic, Written/Oral tradition to support any claims you have made in regards to scripture. Very much the opposite. Its a complete break from Bible/Scripture, in fact its no longer even Scripture, its an opinion of Scripture which makes it just that, an “opionion”. Thus your not following anything but what you conceived in your opinion to be the truth. In “doubt” a lie that became the truth.

“Jesus didn’t seem to appear to her after his resurrection as he did to others.”

Read the other thread on the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption/Dormition which is right here at the moment. All these interretations of yours date to very early church teaching. The IC to 60-AD with the Acts of Andrew. The writtings on the Assumption/Dormition are so profound they place Mary in the exact place where the Catholic Church and the Apostolic Churchs view Her today. Luther had no issue with this, he was Catholic. His issue occured during the monastic reform of his period which is no different than St Theresa or St John of the Cross. He chose to leave and start his own church in “anger” and “hurt” which spills into his work and the following reformers. The Saints reformed the Monastic life. And where does that exist in the Protestant Church today? Oh, I forget Luther didn’t care for it so it was done away with. 👍

In fact if you get right to point of the Reformation and debates with Erasmus. Erasmus held this “main point,” the Church has served the family so effectively for centurys, that we ought admit mankind doesn’t have all the answers and stick to the Church teaching non-dogmatically. And what is the result of the family in the USA and Western world today? The Catholic Church hasn’t budged on its views since the FIRST CENTURY. It was all these “modern” churchs you choose to salute, which promoted that man some how “evolved” out of his barbarism, and who now is educated enough to also have the modern church evolve also to more modern thinking [the we got it, we’ll take it from here theory], like contraceptives, abortion, sola-scriptura, etc. Thus the breaks not only take place with oral/written tradition and misinterpretation of Bible, they totally break from the most important aspect…The Family which sustains LIFE, thus the Sacrements which provide Grace for Spiritual battle, and that battle is the History of Man. 🤷

The only aspect man has accomplished is technical advances. We are just as barbaric as ever, in fact we just kill more effectively from a very disconnected distance now. Makes it easier to swallow the guilt. In fact there were more martyred last century in the Church than the first three togther. The parallel line of civil/savage has always existed and has gone no-where. In fact Christ is the only reason for “civil” man. But to actually believe He will Bless by Grace some half-baked idea on not only His Kingdom, but what you think, he thinks? Wow, now there’s some a formula of folly for ya.

Your issue isn’t with Catholic teaching, or with the early church fathers, in fact you spent more time reading bad Christian writting. So that now your issue is in your own mind, with doubt. And the only thing which could create doubt is fear. Which is the direct opposite of Love, and thus not the working of God but man which leads to the open door of evil.

God made no mistakes, and you can best believe the Blessed Mother is more important to Him today, than when He placed His life in Her Hands, so I"d say She was not only important than but “THE PLAN” thus His DNA ran through HER body.

Every single of these loose shooting congregations today avoid the correct teaching of the Four Gospels. I’ve listened to them, they all stop short, such as in Luke 22 and the man holding the Jug of Water becomes the Holy Spirit thus the Water, and the Bread of LIfe which is the “POINT,” of not just first three Gospels but pounded home in JOHN, aside from the entire text of the OT/NT is completely overlooked and ignored. Never mind the priesthood from OT/NT. And of course it has to be this way because it would confirm CC teaching otherwise!! And the mulit million-dollar, monetary gain motivated organizations would fall apart.

Do they bring you in the realm of Jesus Christ? Of course they do, and for this reason they can’t be disregarded but respected. But the Truth, is still the Truth. And in some form or shape they are all lacking it this aspect. I would read “Scott Hahns” work, I can’t think of the name of his show on EWTN, but the book I would recommend is titled in that show.

Mary? read “Mary through the Centurys”, its written by a Lutheran. Jaroslav Pelikan, he also wrote Jesus through the Centurys. Thats if you don’t to read “Catholics” which is why I mentioned Scott Hahn, though now Catholic and teaching Bible, spent a few decades in the Protestant Church.
 
Let’s make religion a bridge and not a barrier. Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Buddhist, Muslim - does God care? I don’t think so. Re-read those closing verses of Matt. 25. Nothing about doctrine. All about expressing love for one another. God examines our hearts and not our church affiliation.
JL: Building bridges on things which we agree is safe and great. Building bridges denying or ignoring gospel truth is a bridge to no where but disaster. You are ignoring all those scrptures telling us of FALSE TEACHERS. Why didn’t the Apostolic Church build a bridge between Jew and Gentile. Allowing each to observe both baptism and circumcision etc.? Correct doctrine seemed to be very important in the Apostolic Church.

2Tm4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering AND DOCTRINE. 3 For the time will come when THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And THEY SHALL TRUN AWAY their ears FROM THE TRUTH, and shall be turned unto fables.

Titus1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both to exhort and **TO CONVINCE **the gainsayers.

Titus2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: IN DOCTRINE shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

1Tm4:16 **TAKE HEED **unto thyself, AND UNTO THE DOCTRINE; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1Tm5:17 **Let the elders that rule well **be counted worthy of double honour, especially they WHO LABOUR IN THE WORD AND DOCTRINE.

What did the frist Christians do?

Acts2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED STEDFASTLY IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
 
Re: Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?
Certain Catholic theologians may have over-emphasized Mary and created these marian doctrines to their fancy.
 
CopticChristian
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 **Re the religion of Eisenhower.**

 The Eisenhowers had Lutheran and River Brethren antecedents. The River Brethren are a Mennonite sect. It seems to be true (though debated) that Ike's Mom got involved with the Jehovah Witnesses before they were known by that name.

 **It's important to understand how Protestantism (in general) differs from Catholicism in this arena**. When a Catholic baby is baptized, that child is viewed and counted as a Catholic. Among most American Protestants, people only are counted as, say, Methodists or Baptists when they are confirmed (a term not normally used among Baptists). In other words you cannot legitimately say someone is a Methodist or Baptist etc until that person is old enough and has chosen to join that group. A baby born in a Methodist home and baptized as an infant in a Methodist church is baptized Christian and not Methodist. Confirmation will come usually at 12 or 13. Among Baptists, young people normally go through that procedure (including baptism by immersion) when they also are perhaps 12 or 13.  I pick the Baptists and Methodists to illustrate this point because they are the largest Protestant families in the US. Episcopalians may do it differently. I'm not quite sure how Lutherans (the third largest Protestant group in the US) count their members. Those two groups, of course, are closer liturgically to Roman Catholicism.

  As an illustration, roughly 25-28 million Baptists are counted as members in the US while twice that number are Baptists if one counts those who self-identify as Baptist. In other words 50-60 million Baptists, Is this clear? By the way, I have a good friend whose wife was Catholic and became Protestant. She was told - falsely? - that even though she had converted because she had been baptized Catholic she was still a Catholic. True or false?

  **Okay. Back to Eisenhower.** The Eisenhower sons all rejected the religion of the Jehovah Witnesses. JWs do not join the military, will not salute the flag, will not celebrate Christmas, birthdays and other such occasions, etc. Eisenhower was our top general in WWII, etc etc.
** So, to say that he was a Jehovah Witness who ‘converted’ to Presbyterianism is not precisely true. ** There is no evidence that he or his brothers ever were JWs. Like various other Americans he was not a member of a church until he became a Presbyterian. Protestants are less likely to use that word ‘converted’. A minister I know in a small rural community reported that a survey found that only 15% of his congregation had been Methodist all their lives, but he certainly didn’t see the other 85% as converts. They simply moved from one Christian church to another, often because his church is one of only three in the town.
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  It was while Ike was president, of course, that 'under God' was added to the pledge to the flag - a patriotic rite which JWs fervently reject.  

   **Now, as to the existence of doctrinally-strict Anglicans and Lutherans and Baptists etc - true, of course.** That's my main point. Protestantism includes people of very divergent theological opinions. There is much less of a 'party line' in most mainline congregations, whether they are Methodist or Episcopalian or Presbyterian, etc. Mainline congregations often include evangelicals, too, but a spirit of 'think and let think' normally prevails.
** Such differences exist among Roman Catholics, of course, but they are officially not permitted.** In a real sense, one might even wonder if American Catholicism has not become heavily ‘Protestantized’. Millions of the Catholic laity decide for themselves what they believe and don’t believe. That, of course, is why the phrase ‘cafeteria Catholics’ is so popular. Various relatives and friends belong to this group. They attend Mass, feel some loyalty to the Church, help support it with their gifts, etc. - but their personal opinions on doctrine and certain practices (e. g., marriage of clergy) conflict with the official positions of the Church. Some have left the Church, though others remain because of family connections, childhood training, traditions they treasure, etc.
Code:
 Let me suggest again: to get a better perspective on the diversity and the openness among mainline Protestantism read their magazines (*Christian Century* is one of the best) or take a course or two at one of their many seminaries. You will be amazed by the differences of opinion discussed in a civil fashion. Many of these seminaries, of course - like Harvard and Yale - have students with different denominational affiliations (including Catholics). A healthy atmosphere that fosters understanding.
** Most Coptic Christians follow the Egyptian Pope and not the Pope in Rome**. I’m sure you’re not contesting this statement. I have checked them out when I have been in Egypt. So, you must be an Egyptian Roman Catholic or what we used to call a Uniate Catholic - an ‘Eastern Rite’ Catholic: recognizing the Pope in Rome as the church’s authoritative leader while following a somewhat different worship pattern at Mass. Right?
God bless you - and everyone else. Thanks for the dialogue. I learn a lot and hope I also pass along a perspective that is useful to ther posters. I really ought to spend less time responding to other posters, however.
 
GaryTaylor recommended Scott Hahn’s book…the title is ‘Holy Queen, The Mother of God in the Word of God’. I did an online study of the book on the Salvation History website. It’s recommended that you puchase the book, but it is not necessary. I found the study very informative and learned a lot.
 
Certain Catholic theologians may have over-emphasized Mary and created these marian doctrines to their fancy.
You list yourself as “local priest”…your posting here appears to say a priest is saying this. I have reviewed the postings and threads you have started and you do not appear to be a Catholic priest. May I please ask you to name with what Church you are a priest with.

Roman Catholic?
Orthodox?
Oriental?
Eastern Catholic?
Anglican?
Episcopalian?
other?

Thank you…👍
 
CopticChristian
Code:
 **Re the religion of Eisenhower.**

 The Eisenhowers had Lutheran and River Brethren antecedents. The River Brethren are a Mennonite sect. It seems to be true (though debated) that Ike's Mom got involved with the Jehovah Witnesses before they were known by that name.

 **It's important to understand how Protestantism (in general) differs from Catholicism in this arena**.** When a Catholic baby is baptized, that child is viewed and counted as a Catholic. **Among most American Protestants, people only are counted as, say, Methodists or Baptists when they are confirmed (a term not normally used among Baptists). In other words you cannot legitimately say someone is a Methodist or Baptist etc until that person is old enough and has chosen to join that group. **A baby born in a Methodist home and baptized as an infant in a Methodist church is baptized Christian and not Methodist.** Confirmation will come usually at 12 or 13. Among Baptists, young people normally go through that procedure (including baptism by immersion) when they also are perhaps 12 or 13.  I pick the Baptists and Methodists to illustrate this point because they are the largest Protestant families in the US. Episcopalians may do it differently. I'm not quite sure how Lutherans (the third largest Protestant group in the US) count their members. Those two groups, of course, are closer liturgically to Roman Catholicism.

  
  **Okay. Back to Eisenhower.** The Eisenhower sons all rejected the religion of the Jehovah Witnesses. JWs do not join the military, will not salute the flag, will not celebrate Christmas, birthdays and other such occasions, etc. Eisenhower was our top general in WWII, etc etc.
** So, to say that he was a Jehovah Witness who ‘converted’ to Presbyterianism is not precisely true. ** There is no evidence that he or his brothers ever were JWs. It was while Ike was president, of course, that ‘under God’ was added to the pledge to the flag - a patriotic rite which JWs fervently reject.
Code:
   **Now, as to the existence of doctrinally-strict Anglicans and Lutherans and Baptists etc - true, of course.** That's my main point. Protestantism includes people of very divergent theological opinions. There is much less of a 'party line' in most mainline congregations, whether they are Methodist or Episcopalian or Presbyterian, etc. Mainline congregations often include evangelicals, too, but a spirit of 'think and let think' normally prevails.
** Such differences exist among Roman Catholics, of course, but they are officially not permitted.** In a real sense, one might even wonder if American Catholicism has not become heavily ‘Protestantized’. Millions of the Catholic laity decide for themselves what they believe and don’t believe. That, of course, is why the phrase ‘cafeteria Catholics’ is so popular. Various relatives and friends belong to this group. They attend Mass, feel some loyalty to the Church, help support it with their gifts, etc. - but their personal opinions on doctrine and certain practices (e. g., marriage of clergy) conflict with the official positions of the Church. Some have left the Church, though others remain because of family connections, childhood training, traditions they treasure, etc.
Code:
   A healthy atmosphere that fosters understanding.
** Most Coptic Christians follow the Egyptian Pope and not the Pope in Rome**. I’m sure you’re not contesting this statement. I have checked them out when I have been in Egypt. So, you must be an Egyptian Roman Catholic or what we used to call a Uniate Catholic - an ‘Eastern Rite’ Catholic: recognizing the Pope in Rome as the church’s authoritative leader while following a somewhat different worship pattern at Mass. Right?
Code:
 God bless you - and everyone else. Thanks for the dialogue. I learn a lot and hope I also pass along a perspective that is useful to ther posters. I really ought to spend less time responding to other posters, however.
Roy,

You may want to watch “White Men Can’t Jump”…there is a scene in there where Wesley Snipes tells Woody Harrelson that he cannot hear Jimmy Hendrix…Wesley says you can listen to him but you can’t hear him…

I find your thinking filled with cognitave dissonance…I am listening but I cannot hear you…my mind is not able to compute irregularities…it causes me to become “unsane”…you may want to consult “Science and Sanity”…Alfred Korzybski as he coined that term…“unsanity”. Roy’s paradigm is as follows:
When a Catholic baby born into a Catholic family is baptized that baby is counted as Catholic.
When a baby born into a Methodist family is baptized that baby is counted as Christian.
So here is what I can listen to and cannot hear. A baby born into a Catholic Family is as you say a “Catholic baby”…not yet baptized and is determined to be a Catholic baby…but you infer not Christian.

I can listen to you say that a baby born into a family that is Methodist is not Methodist, is baptized and then not counted as a Methodist but counted as Christian.

You then couple that with Baptist that deny Infant Baptism.

I listen to you as you are suggesting something quite extraordinary and gives insight into your beliefs as to what a Catholic is and what a Christian is and it is irregular and contrary to your notion of building bridges…you have a bias revealed by your writing and I hear that…👍

Thank you for understanding Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholic…both are Christian…and part of the OHCAC…
 
Mariology has been a stumbling block for me over the years…

Most translations suggest that after the birth of Jesus Mary and Joseph lived the life of a husband and wife, including marital relations. To me that makes them normal and presents no problem. How could one possibly object to this intimacy? I find the effort to link virginity to purity absurd. Is there anyone purer than a devoted, loving mother or father
The references to the brothers of Jesus need to be taken into consideration. Could they have been cousins? Maybe. But maybe they were brothers. Fine, if so.
Mary was an exceptionally pure and devoted mother to Jesus, but the truth is that our Lord was not Joseph’s son. If he had been, then it would have been proper for Mary and Joseph to have children of their own after the birth of Jesus. Mary conceived Jesus by being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, a Person other than Joseph, so by right she belonged exclusively to Him as his bride in accord with the moral precepts of the Torah. It was because Mary and Joseph hadn’t yet consummated their marriage that God willed his Son be born of a virgin. A righteous God couldn’t possibly dismiss his own divine precepts while expecting his children to observe them for the sake of his goodness and righteousness, could he? 🤷 In Luke 1:35, the Hebrew expressions “to overshadow” and “to lay one’s power over a woman” idiomatically pertain to marital relations between two spouses. Mary was truly the spouse of the Holy Spirit as the Lord’s handmaid, so Joseph could no longer have intercourse with his betrothed wife once he took her into his home, if that were his intention.

Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. And he said to me, “This gate shall remain shut;
it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”
Ezekiel 44, 1-2


The prophet Ezekiel envisioned the restoration of Solomon’s temple and the Kingdom of Judah after the temple was destroyed and Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians. But OT prophecies have a primary and a secondary fulfillment in the NT. Isaiah 7, 14 and Psalm 69, 8-9 are two clear examples. Ezekiel is not merely describing a physical restoration of a temple made from stone, but more importantly a spiritual restoration in the person of the true temple, namely Jesus Christ (Jn 2, 19,21). It was on the Feast of Tabernacles that Jesus spiritually described himself as the true temple. By our Lord’s day, this feast commemorated the moment when Moses struck the rock to produce water for the Israelites who thirsted after having wandered in exile through the desert (Num 20). Thus, on the same feast day, Jesus declared that if anyone who thirsted came to him to drink, rivers of living water would flow from his heart (Jn 7, 37-38). Jesus used the image of living water when he referred to the Holy Spirit in his conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well (Jn 4). This water flows through him just as the waters issued from the threshold of the temple towards the east in the prophet’s vision. All true believers worship God in spirit and in truth in the true spiritual temple which is Jesus Christ by partaking in his own divine life in their shared humanity.

To be identified with a temple in its physical form the divine Word had to have become flesh. Jesus did refer to his body as “this temple” when he spoke to the scribes and Pharisees alluding to his death and ressurection. The gate to his Incarnation was his mother Mary. Our Lord entered the temple of his sacred body the exact moment when Mary consented to conceive him at the Annunciation. And because this gate of the east was entered by the all-holy God, it was rendered absolutely sacred. Mary’s womb would have been profaned if a human being conceived in sin by the seed of Joseph had entered the world through this gate after the divine Word had passed through it. No other person should enter through it. As a devout Jew, Joseph knew that he could not have normal relations with his wife considering whose mother she was. The gate led to the Holy of Holies of the one true temple, the sacred heart of our Lord Jesus Christ. So only Jesus as our eternal High Priest should enter it. Only his unblemished love alone could reconcile us with the Father by his act of atonement. This gate must not be used for a common purpose by ordainary souls without desecrating it. The common Jew was not allowed to pass through the gate of the temple at Jerusalem that led to the Holy of Holies for fear of committing sacrilege.

PAX
:heaven:
 
The Assumption - not particularly Christocentric or related to our salvation, but also not contrary to scripture.
Why is it not related to our salvation? What Mary received following her Dormition is what we will receive at the end of time.
 
Mary was an exceptionally pure and devoted mother to Jesus, but the truth is that our Lord was not Joseph’s son. If he had been, then it would have been proper for Mary and Joseph to have children of their own after the birth of Jesus. Mary conceived Jesus by being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, a Person other than Joseph, so by right she belonged exclusively to Him as his bride in accord with the moral precepts of the Torah. It was because Mary and Joseph hadn’t yet consummated their marriage that God willed his Son be born of a virgin. A righteous God couldn’t possibly dismiss his own divine precepts while expecting his children to observe them for the sake of his goodness and righteousness, could he? 🤷 In Luke 1:35, the Hebrew expressions “to overshadow” and “to lay one’s power over a woman” idiomatically pertain to marital relations between two spouses. Mary was truly the spouse of the Holy Spirit as the Lord’s handmaid, so Joseph could no longer have intercourse with his betrothed wife once he took her into his home, if that were his intention.

Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. And he said to me, “This gate shall remain shut;
it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”
Ezekiel 44, 1-2


The prophet Ezekiel envisioned the restoration of Solomon’s temple and the Kingdom of Judah after the temple was destroyed and Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians. But OT prophecies have a primary and a secondary fulfillment in the NT. Isaiah 7, 14 and Psalm 69, 8-9 are two clear examples. Ezekiel is not merely describing a physical restoration of a temple made from stone, but more importantly a spiritual restoration in the person of the true temple, namely Jesus Christ (Jn 2, 19,21). It was on the Feast of Tabernacles that Jesus spiritually described himself as the true temple. By our Lord’s day, this feast commemorated the moment when Moses struck the rock to produce water for the Israelites who thirsted after having wandered in exile through the desert (Num 20). Thus, on the same feast day, Jesus declared that if anyone who thirsted came to him to drink, rivers of living water would flow from his heart (Jn 7, 37-38). Jesus used the image of living water when he referred to the Holy Spirit in his conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well (Jn 4). This water flows through him just as the waters issued from the threshold of the temple towards the east in the prophet’s vision. All true believers worship God in spirit and in truth in the true spiritual temple which is Jesus Christ by partaking in his own divine life in their shared humanity.

To be identified with a temple in its physical form the divine Word had to have become flesh. Jesus did refer to his body as “this temple” when he spoke to the scribes and Pharisees alluding to his death and ressurection. The gate to his Incarnation was his mother Mary. Our Lord entered the temple of his sacred body the exact moment when Mary consented to conceive him at the Annunciation. And because this gate of the east was entered by the all-holy God, it was rendered absolutely sacred. Mary’s womb would have been profaned if a human being conceived in sin by the seed of Joseph had entered the world through this gate after the divine Word had passed through it. No other person should enter through it. As a devout Jew, Joseph knew that he could not have normal relations with his wife considering whose mother she was. The gate led to the Holy of Holies of the one true temple, the sacred heart of our Lord Jesus Christ. So only Jesus as our eternal High Priest should enter it. Only his unblemished love alone could reconcile us with the Father by his act of atonement. This gate must not be used for a common purpose by ordainary souls without desecrating it. The common Jew was not allowed to pass through the gate of the temple at Jerusalem that led to the Holy of Holies for fear of committing sacrilege.

PAX
:heaven:
Beautiful :amen:

MJ
 
hello 🙂 on another thread, a poster, stated that the dogmas relating to our Blessed Mother were “wildly un biblical.” to go into this would have derailed that particular thread, and out of respect to the posters wishes not to pursue this debate, i have decided it would be interesting to hear from anybody at all, Catholic or protestant who believe that the Marian dogmas are un biblical. i myself, do not see them as such. when a side by side comparison is made between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant. there is a very strong parallel. when we read o.t. accounts, about solomon for example, and bathsheba( the queen mother, who had her sons ear) there seems to be a deeper meaning pointing to another Mother and Her Son, and how She would intercede to Him on our behalf. just a few examples. feel free to come up with your own. its wide open. the immaculate conception, the virgin birth, the assumption into heaven. all of it. peace to all of us, and may this be a friendly discussion. 🙂
It’s easier to just focus on the most recent infallible teaching from 1 Nov 1950, but this is the only non di Fide teaching of the four Dogmas. It has been a teaching in the church since the 3rd-4th century and has slowly over the centuries become more explicit. While scripture is the key reference, there is no single key reference that tells us this. Further, the teaching was elevated to infallible based on universally accepted nature of Mary by the church already present. In looking a the Bible it’s also important to consider the church has discerned numerous messages and manifestations of Mary to be genuine and divine, although they do not add to the Revelation of our Salvation they in turn together with the scriptures allow us to see Mary.

The Pope JPII quoted John 14:3 as one of scriptural basis for understanding Mary. All these passages – viz., John 14:3, Isaiah 60:13, Luke 1:28, Song of Songs 8:5, 1st Corinthians 15:21–26, Psalms 132:8, Psalms 45:9–17, Song of Songs 3:6, 4:8, 6:9, Genesis 3:15, and Revelation 12:1–2 – are drawn upon as Scriptural support of the Assumption both in that original document, and today by Catholic apologists.
 
Coptic Christian
Code:
I read and re-read what you wrote and still can't figure it out. I stated that when a baby is baptized Catholic that child is counted as a Catholic, but when a Methodist baby is baptized in a Methodist church he is considered Christian. He is not counted as a Methodist until he (or she) is confirmed. Baptists are somewhat different. Normally they are bap

  For example, there is a Methodist church nearby, The membership is about 1000. The pastor jokes and says that about 500 are active, but that about 2000 think of themselves as Methodists. For example, he cited a recent year when the church lost 18 members through death, but he was called upon to officiate at 42 funerals. 

**As for Mary**, every Christian honors Mary. The difference of opinion over her arises as to how she is to be viewed. Among Catholics she is venerated, often seen as co-redemptrix (sp?) along with Christ, a very powerful personage in heaven who can have enormous influence over the actions and graces dispensed by Jesus, etc. 

 Fine, for people who can believe this. To some of us this can suggest the influence of paganism in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. St. Paul doesn't mention Mary even once in his letters to the early churches. If she were so central, how does one explain that? Even Acts, with its account of the early Christians, mentions Mary only once in passing. Etc. 

 Again, this Catholic tendency to equate virginity with purity strikes me as unfortunate. What is 'second class' about loving husbands and wives having natural and normal marital relations and bearing children? I view that as at least on a par with deliberate celibacy when God's first commandment "Be fruitful and mulriply" is ignored. And, by the way, it always seemed to me curious that both times the family tree of Jesus is spelled out (Matthew and Luke) the line of Joseph is used not that of Mary!

  The two major doctrines re Mary that differentiate Catholicism from Protestantism were not defined until 1864 (Immaculate Conception) and 1950 (Assumption). I believe the Eastern Orthodox differ from Catholicism on these dogmas, also, As for Mary living a sinless life, the Bible clearly says that 'all have sinned....'  It doesn't exclude Marry, which would have been noted if she were an exception. Frankly, I like to think that Mary wasn't perfect, which makes her more of a fallible creature like the rest of us. Gosh, she seemed to make a mistake when Jesus was 12 and she and Joseph had traveled a whole day's journey from Jerusalem before they checked on him. And then she had the gall to scold him when they found him in the temple after searching for three days! I never understood why they didn't go directly to the Temple since that had been the original destination and the most logical place for Jesus to be.

   But Hail Mary, full of grace. Those words, of course, are from the Bible. But the last part of that prayer is not scriptural. Specifically, where in scripture are we encouraged to pray to Mary? 

   I propose that Christians be allowed to take differing positions on this question (and other questions) and live in love and charity with one another. This insistence, whether by traditionalist Catholics or evangelical Protestants, that they alone have the correct understanding when it comes to scripture is the source of much arrogance and unChristlike attitudes.
 
Coptic Christian
Code:
I read and re-read what you wrote and still can't figure it out. I stated that when a baby is baptized Catholic that child is counted as a Catholic, but when a Methodist baby is baptized in a Methodist church he is considered Christian. He is not counted as a Methodist until he (or she) is confirmed. Baptists are somewhat different. Normally they are bap

  For example, there is a Methodist church nearby, The membership is about 1000. The pastor jokes and says that about 500 are active, but that about 2000 think of themselves as Methodists. For example, he cited a recent year when the church lost 18 members through death, but he was called upon to officiate at 42 funerals. 

**As for Mary**, every Christian honors Mary. The difference of opinion over her arises as to how she is to be viewed. Among Catholics she is venerated, often seen as co-redemptrix (sp?) along with Christ, a very powerful personage in heaven who can have enormous influence over the actions and graces dispensed by Jesus, etc. 

 Fine, for people who can believe this. To some of us this can suggest the influence of paganism in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. St. Paul doesn't mention Mary even once in his letters to the early churches. If she were so central, how does one explain that? Even Acts, with its account of the early Christians, mentions Mary only once in passing. Etc. 

 Again, this Catholic tendency to equate virginity with purity strikes me as unfortunate. What is 'second class' about loving husbands and wives having natural and normal marital relations and bearing children? I view that as at least on a par with deliberate celibacy when God's first commandment "Be fruitful and mulriply" is ignored. And, by the way, it always seemed to me curious that both times the family tree of Jesus is spelled out (Matthew and Luke) the line of Joseph is used not that of Mary!

  The two major doctrines re Mary that differentiate Catholicism from Protestantism were not defined until 1864 (Immaculate Conception) and 1950 (Assumption). I believe the Eastern Orthodox differ from Catholicism on these dogmas, also, As for Mary living a sinless life, the Bible clearly says that 'all have sinned....'  It doesn't exclude Marry, which would have been noted if she were an exception. Frankly, I like to think that Mary wasn't perfect, which makes her more of a fallible creature like the rest of us. Gosh, she seemed to make a mistake when Jesus was 12 and she and Joseph had traveled a whole day's journey from Jerusalem before they checked on him. And then she had the gall to scold him when they found him in the temple after searching for three days! I never understood why they didn't go directly to the Temple since that had been the original destination and the most logical place for Jesus to be.

   But Hail Mary, full of grace. Those words, of course, are from the Bible. But the last part of that prayer is not scriptural. Specifically, where in scripture are we encouraged to pray to Mary? 

   I propose that Christians be allowed to take differing positions on this question (and other questions) and live in love and charity with one another. This insistence, whether by traditionalist Catholics or evangelical Protestants, that they alone have the correct understanding when it comes to scripture is the source of much arrogance and unChristlike attitudes.
Roy,

Here is what you wrote word for word. I clicked it and pasted it.
When a Catholic baby is baptized, that child is viewed and counted as a Catholic. Among most American Protestants, people only are counted as, say, Methodists or Baptists when they are confirmed (a term not normally used among Baptists). In other words you cannot legitimately say someone is a Methodist or Baptist etc until that person is old enough and has chosen to join that group. A baby born in a Methodist home and baptized as an infant in a Methodist church is baptized Christian and not Methodist.
Notice you say “when a Catholic baby is baptized”…then compare and contrast that with “a baby born in a Methodist home”…you have rendered the child born to a Catholic a Catholic baby and a baby born in a Methodist home a baby. What you are saying is that a baby born in a Catholic home is a Catholic by virtue of being born into a Catholic home and a baby born into a Methodist home is a baby. How hard is that for you to understand?:eek:
 
What’s I’m saying, of course, is that a baby baptized in a Catholic ceremony is viewed and counted by the Catholic Church as a Catholic. A baby baptized in a Methodist ceremony is viewed as a Christian but not counted as a Methodist until that child chooses to be confirmed and takes the vows of membership in that church.
Code:
 Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Have I clarified it now?  

 This brings up a question I have asked but don't recall getting an answer. I know a couple who were married. She had been baptized Catholic, but then joined his Protestant Church. She apparently has been warned by one of her Catholic relatives that she is not married in the eyes of the Catholic Church, that they are living in sin because she had been baptized Catholic and had to be married by a priest. Could this possibly be true? Is it true that a baptized Catholic always is a Catholic regardless of whether or not she or he leaves the church? It's as though a baby is branded Catholic at baptism with a brand that cannot be removed. I don't believe that this is the official position of the Church but am curious.
 
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