Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

  • Thread starter Thread starter benidict
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
CONTINUED:

[1Kgs2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And THE KING ROSE up TO MEET HER, AND BOWED HIMSELF UNTO HER, and sat down on his throne, AND CAUSED A SEAT TO BE SET FOR THE KING’S MOTHER; and SHE SAT ON HIS RIGHT HAND.] Mk10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

[REV 11:19 And THE TEMPLE OF GOD WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN and THERE WAS SEEN in his temple THE ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail RV 12:1 And THERE APPEARED A GREAT WONDER in heaven A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN and the MOON UNDER HER FEET and UPON HER HEAD A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS 2 And she being with child cried travailing in birth and pained to be delivered] The woman is a person=Mary and a collective, symbolic of the Church, Old and New Covenant people of God. Twelve stars, universal queen, queen of heaven and earth. [Eph3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,]

[RV 12:5 And SHE BROUGHT FORTH A MAN CHILD who was TO RULE ALL NATIONS with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne] To rule ALL NATIONS, universal king, the child is a person=Christ and collective, symbolic of the Davidic Kingdom.

Jer 52:1 ZEDIKIAH was twenty-one years old when he became KING, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. HIS MOTHER’S NAME was HAMUTAL, daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.

2 Kgs 21:1 MANASSEH was twelve years old when he became
KING, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. HIS MOTHER’S NAME was HEPHZIBAH.

2 Kgs 8:26 Two and twenty years old was AHAZIAH when he began to reign; and HE REIGNED one year in Jerusalem. And HIS MOTHER’S NAME WAS ATHALIAH, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

Jer 13:18 Say to THE KING and to THE QUEEN MOTHER, Come down from YOUR THRONES, for your glorious CROWNS will fall from your heads. 19 The cities in the Negev will be shut up, and there will be no one to open them. All Judah will be carried into exile, carried completely away.

1Kgs8:20 And THE LORD HATH PERFORMED HIS WORD that he spake, and I AM RISEN UP in the room of David my father, AND SIT ON THE THRONE OF ISRAEL, AS THE LORD PROMISED, AND have BUILT AN HOUSE FOR the name of THE LORD GOD OF ISRAEL. 21 And I HAVE SET THERE A PLACE FOR THE ARK, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.

Jer 44:9 9 Have you forgotten the wickedness committed by your fathers and by THE KINGS AND QUEENS OF JUDAH and the wickedness committed by you and your wives in the land of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem?
 
have you ever corrected a Catholic on these boards for a misinformed and over-generalised statement?

When I offered a DIRECT rebuttal of that statement you rebuked me!

Your rules are too inconsistent for me to follow:
 
Please, don’t cut off my quotes to suit a point that you are attempting to make.

*"The virgin birth is in Sacred Scripture **and some protestant denominations *have taken a vote in their congregations and decided to deny it."

P.S. It’s not a “bigoted” statement. It’s a statement of fact.
 
So Jhargus by your post it would appear that you do agree with these statements:
I do not want to assume , but do you in fact agree with these statements?

Do you with agree claim of Saint Alphonsus Liguori or not?
right now is Mary omnipotent?

Do you agree with the claim of St. Bernardine of Sienna or not?
right now if Mary asks of Jesus, will it be done?
 
Barbkw said:
Please, don’t cut off my quotes to suit a point that you are attempting to make.

*“The virgin birth is in Sacred Scripture **and some protestant denominations ***have taken a vote in their congregations and decided to deny it.”
Click to expand...
So you are allowed to make any claim as long as you say SOME?

but if I say SOME Catholics (insert anything here like worship Mary) it would be ok ?

Or did the rules just change again?
 
Barbkw said:
The virgin birth is in Sacred Scripture and some protestant denominations have taken a vote in their congregations and decided to deny it.

Noncelibate same sex attraction is talked about as sinful in Sacred Scripture. Some denominations deny that as well, hiring homosexual partnered pastors.
Click to expand...
Provide ONE source for your claim that "The virgin birth is in Sacred Scripture and some protestant denominations have taken a vote in their congregations and decided to deny it.
"
 
Tester,

How do you think that some protestant denominations began denying the virgin birth? Some denominations have no one to answer to except their own local church.

Others denominations will bring the virgin birth up for a vote by the entire assembly. The last major Episcopal conclave, the virgin birth was asked to be brought up for a vote. The assembly refused to bring the matter to the table.

I’ll hunt for the article so that you can read the procedure.

google.com/search?q=anglican+vote+virgin+birth&rlz=1I7ADBR_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7
 
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

ARTICLE 9

“I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH”

Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

963 Since the Virgin Mary’s role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer… She is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ’ . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501

I. MARY’S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;502 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."503

965 After her Son’s Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507
. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)508 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . .
 
Publisher said:
I never stated Mary was “divine”…but her devotion filled the “gap” for the Roman worlds need of a “goddess”…Mary’s titles given to her are some of the very titles the Goddesses of ancient Rome…especially Isis and her iconagrpahy.
Click to expand...
Which titles are these, particularly? Which of you pet Jesus Seminarians came up with this one?

As for the OP, none of the Marian dogma’s are contrary to the bible, but only the first can be taken from the biblical text without exegesis.
 
Tester,

We Catholics know that the grace that Mary has comes from God.

She is unique of all creation. She is the one conceived without sin, the bridge between humanity.

Her prayers are omnipotent…Her prayers…a creature prays. She is omnipotent in that she is full of grace and and her prayers most efficacious…for our conversion to Christ. She has intervened on the behalf of Christians for many centuries.
 
Also, the term “omnipotent” will have very different connotations to a protestant than to a Catholic.
 
Barbkw said:
Also, the term “omnipotent” will have very different connotations to a protestant than to a Catholic.
Click to expand...
please expand on the differences: what do you think “omnipotent” means to Protestants vs. Catholics
 
🙂

From your accusatory tone when using the word “omnipotent”, we can tell that you believe it to be different than how Catholics interpret the word.

Mary is not divine but we believe that God placed her in a position of leadership within salvation history and the Church.

P.S. I didn’t capitalize the word protestant because I did not mean the Protestant Church. I meant, a person who affiliates their worship with a protestant denomination.
 
Tester,

Omnipotent of Mary in this context means that her prayers coming from a pure soul with perfect faith - are omnipotent compared to ours, we who are sinners. Her soul magnifies the Lord, and she magnifies our prayers.

True devotion to Mary always brings us closer to Jesus.

We ask Mary, who sees God face to face, to pray for us sinners.

I find it so tragic that we see such a contempt for Our Blessed Mother in American society by other Christians. They are misinterpreting so much.
 
Barbkw said:
🙂

From your accusatory tone when using the word “omnipotent”, we can tell that you believe it to be different than how Catholics interpret the word.

Mary is not divine but we believe that God placed her in a position of leadership within salvation history and the Church.

P.S. I didn’t capitalize the word protestant because I did not mean the Protestant Church. I meant, a person who affiliates their worship with a protestant denomination.
Click to expand...
let me help you then
I say that that omnipotence refers to God’s sovereign power. authority, and control over the created order.

Catholic encyclopedia :
The omnipotence of God is a dogma of Catholic faith, contained in all the creeds and defined by various councils (cf. Denziger-Bannwart, “Enchiridion”, 428, 1790). In the Old Testament there are more than seventy passages in which God is called Shaddai, i. e., omnipotent. The Scriptures represent this attribute as infinite power (Job, xlii, 2; Mark, x, 27; Luke, i, 37; Matt., xix, 26, etc.) which God alone possesses (Tob., xiii, 4; Ecclus., i, 8; etc.).

I agree with the above.

Blasphemy defined:
•Irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable; The act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for any religion’s deity or deities;** The act of claiming the attributes of a deity**

so assigning that attributes that God alone possesses to a person or institution is blasphemy

“She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son.”-Saint Alphonsus Liguori (September 27, 1696 – August 1, 1787) was an Italian Catholic Bishop, spiritual writer, theologian, and founder of the Redemptorists, an influential religious order. He was canonized in 1839 by Pope Gregory XVI and declared a Doctor of the Church.

🤷
 
Check my post.

We also have the First Five Saturdays of the month to recall the dignity of the Blessed Mother, her place in our life, and the blasphemies committed against her.
 
KathleenGee said:
Tester,

Omnipotent of Mary in this context means that her prayers coming from a pure soul with perfect faith - are omnipotent compared to ours, we who are sinners. Her soul magnifies the Lord, and she magnifies our prayers.

True devotion to Mary always brings us closer to Jesus.

We ask Mary, who sees God face to face, to pray for us sinners.

I find it so tragic that we see such a contempt for Our Blessed Mother in American society by other Christians. They are misinterpreting so much.
Click to expand...
Omnipotent comapred to ours?
is that the teaching of the CC?
 
You need to read the CC in context. You are using it for your own biases. You are using the word in context to the passage on God.

You are comparing Mary to God. We don’t.

I gave you the correct understanding – omnipotence of Mary’s prayers and graces to us. You have to study church history and the many times Mary interceded. If it were not for her prayers, Islam would rule Europe.

You and I would not be here.
 
Cracks me up how people of protestant denominations can locate these writings.

I found this:

"St Alphonsus Liguori

In defending his praise of Mary, St Alphonsus quotes St Augustine, who declares: “that whatever we may say in praise of Mary is little in comparison with that which she deserves, on account of her dignity of Mother of God; and moreover, the Church says, in the Mass appointed for her festivals, “Thou art happy, O sacred Virgin Mary, and most worthy of all praise.” The Glories of Mary is probably the most widely read book on the Blessed Virgin in the world. As of 1933, it has been published 32 times in English and 736 times in all.”

socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/does-st-alphonsus-de-liguori-in-glories.html

"St. Alphonsus writes at the very beginning of his book. He dedicates it “To Jesus and Mary”:

My most loving Redeemer and Lord Jesus Christ, I, Thy miserable servant . . . I know not, however, to whom I could better recommend it than to Thee, who hast her glory so much at heart. To Thee, therefore, do I dedicate and commend it . . . this Immaculate Virgin in whom Thou hast placed the hope and whom Thou hast made the refuge of all the redeemed . . .

And now I turn to thee, O my most sweet Lady and Mother Mary. Thou well knowest that, after Jesus, I have placed my entire hope of salvation in thee; for I acknowledge that everything good – my conversion, my vocation to renounce the world and all the other graces that I have received from God – all were given me through thy means. (p. 23)"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top