Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

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It is impossible for an eternal being to be born; it is a contradiction in terms. God used Mary as a tool to bring Himself into the earth in human form.

And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. "For He has had regard for the humble state of His slave; For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed. – Luke 1:46-48
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me?
B]Mary’s own words and the whole of Scripture nullify any biblical basis concerning notion of an immaculate conception and nullifies the notion of a sinless life.
Scripture verifies that Mary was sinless. She like all mankind needed a savior but that is because of the sin of Adam and Eve not her personal sin.
B]The Scripture also nullifies the perpetual virginity unless Joseph’s and Mary’s other children were adopted, which there is no indication of this and every indication of the words of the writers of the NT, including Jesus own words, is that Joesph and Mary waited to engage in sexual relations after the birth of Jesus as a God ordained and blessed family would be. If she did not have physical relations with her husband, then God is the God of contradiction because ordained marriage and part of that covenant relationship is the gift of sexual relation and the result of that is clearly represented by the fact that they had other children besides Jesus. Anyone who holds onto these types of contradictory traditions from men, in my opinion, cannot believe what the Bible says in this regard.
Mary’s own words proclaim that she had made a vow of virginity. Link this link is just one thread that refutes what you have written. It is obvious to anyone who understands the culture of Mary and Joseph that Jesus was an only child. Jesus own words? That is a new one but no quote is referred to. Jesus never said He had other brothers that were also Mary’s what He did say showed that He was an only child.
Take it for what it is; you either chose to believe the Biblical accounts or you chose not to; it really is that simple according to Mary’s own words. Perhaps this is why the original poster appears to question these dogmas.
It isn’t a matter of believing the Bible but not believing your uniformed interpretation. According to Mary’s own words, she was a virgin. According to the Angel’s she was full of grace.
 
Moondweller,
I take acception to this.
It’s simple logic, my friend. To devote yourself to one doesn’t make you closer to another. One devotes himself to the one he desires to be closer to - not another.
How do you know if Kathleen’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin causes her to not use that devotion to guide her to Christ? I have found Kathleen to be, by her words here, nothing less than a woman of faith in our Savior.
The issue wasn’t about one’s faith but the object of one’s devotion.
I am devoted to my wife, but “my hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.”
Your hope being built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness is based on Divine revelation, not your devotion to your wife. I know many unbelieving husbands who are devoted to their wives and have no hope in Christ. Your statement is non sequitur, a conclusion that does not follow from the premise.
 
Moondweller,

You are looking at what you think we are…you are commenting on issues that are outside your experience…

Christ is God…He could have entered in this world any way He wanted.
Code:
I shared with my RCIA group last week how deeply  Christ's Nativity spoke to me....how through Gentle Mary He came into this world so poor, His angels pointing Him out wrapped in swaddling clothes and placed in an animal feeder...to become Food for us...

I continue to grow in my knowledge of Christ, how much He is to us, how He is the Incarnate Word of God, the complete and Final Word of God's revelation...and to see it was through a woman, that He came to us.  To denigrate her to just another womb is to deny her very own words in Scripture that all generations will call me blessed..'
You don’t come across has having much respect or honor or appreciation for the mother of Christ for her ‘Fiat’ – the free will God gave her in saying yes.

Without her yes, Christ would not be here. To denigrate her is to denigrate Christ Himself.

We are not a people of the book like the Muslims describe us. We are in a living relationship with Christ Himself, and our life with Him is something we live out day by day. Your faith is based more on holding a book, and approaching it literally without context of how faith is lived out, how the Word of God is lived out in His people.

It is having the Bible without Christ’s Church, our history of the communion of saints, and the family we come to know in the Holy Spirit with Mary as our mother. How can you call one another brother and sister in the Lord but deny the place and role of mother???

Why then didn’t Christ pass out Bible books? Why didn’t the Bible books come out beforehand at Pentecost??? There was no Bible…who made the Bible???

It is a Bible without church. When you have no shepherd, the Bible is broken, misinterpreted, charity goes out and judgment and condemnation comes in…the mis use of the life giving purpose the Word of God was intended to have…argue, bicker, argue, bicker, contend, reject, project…condemn, malign, intrude, invalidate…this is what happens when you do not turn to Christ in Humility, seek the truth acknowledging that Christ prayed constantly on earth for us to be one. Christ has called those consecrated in truth and spirit to guide us in the Word of God, because all of us are sheep and need His ministers who are faithful to the Gospel brought to us through the Apostles and their successors…the devotion and respect and honor due Mary goes all the way back to Apostolic times.
 
Thank you, Jon, for your kind remarks…I am still trying…and learning…
 
Soooooo

Calvin and MD…I reflect on myself when I get agitated about other people’s religion…and I have to take a second look at myself as to what is the source of my agitation and indignation…some times it is a spiritual matter within myself that I need to expunge…
 
The idea of a virgin birth for a god was no strange concept for people with knowledge of Greek/Roman philosophy so it was pretty easy to introduce. Read in the original Aramaic, the passages used to predict the virgin birth could never be interpreted as such to an open mind. Young woman has been interpreted as virgin. But I have a feeling that’s something you have made an answer for a long time ago -so; my question is: how about the ‘EVER virgin’ bit?? Did anyone ask Mary? How do you know about her private life?? Does the idea of her engaging in the sexual act somehow knock her of the pedestal? Can you really ignore the mention of Jesus’ brothers? I’ve noticed that this is where apologists claim mistranslation…
It always puzzled me when I was a kid going to mass but of course, one didn’t ask those sort of questions then! Do you?
 
It’s simple logic, my friend. To devote yourself to one doesn’t make you closer to another. One devotes himself to the one he desires to be closer to - not another.
That is simply not Christian ideology.
  • Your devotion to Christ makes you more devoted to your neighbor. And your devotion to your neighbor makes you more devoted to Christ.
  • Your devotion to Christ makes you more devoted to your spouse. And your devotion to your spouse makes you more devoted to Christ.
  • Our devotion to Mary makes us more devoted to Christ. And our devotion to Christ makes us more devoted to Mary.
 
hello 🙂 on another thread, a poster, stated that the dogmas relating to our Blessed Mother were “wildly un biblical.” to go into this would have derailed that particular thread, and out of respect to the posters wishes not to pursue this debate, i have decided it would be interesting to hear from anybody at all, Catholic or protestant who believe that the Marian dogmas are un biblical. i myself, do not see them as such. when a side by side comparison is made between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant. there is a very strong parallel. when we read o.t. accounts, about solomon for example, and bathsheba( the queen mother, who had her sons ear) there seems to be a deeper meaning pointing to another Mother and Her Son, and how She would intercede to Him on our behalf. just a few examples. feel free to come up with your own. its wide open. the immaculate conception, the virgin birth, the assumption into heaven. all of it. peace to all of us, and may this be a friendly discussion. 🙂
Actually this is kind of interesting.

The following is [SIGN]my opinion only[/SIGN]

First dogma: Mary the Mother of God. Not unbiblical. Arguably confusing as she really is the mother of God the Son incarnate. She is not the mother of God the father, God the Holy Spirit, or the preexisting Christ. But this is nitpicking imho.

Second dogma: The perpetual virginity of Mary. At best extraBiblical, at worst unBiblical but not “wildly unBiblical”. I start with Mary was married to Joseph and the assumption with married couples is that they have sex. Plus you add that to the fact that the Bible does mention brothers of Jesus, and Occam’s razor forces me to believe the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. So then question of whether the Bible mentioning the brothers of Jesus Christ is a showstopper that that makes this unBiblical or whether the Catholic explanation of these Scriptures is at least credible (meaning you don’t buy into it necessarily but at least can see it as an alternatvie). I don’t have an opinion either way to be honest.

Third dogma: The immaculate conception of Mary. Much like the second extraBiblical at worst unBiblical but not “wildly unBiblical”. Reasoning is much like dogma. I start with the fact that “all have sinned” per Romans 3:23. Of course the Catholic response is “have aborted foetuses sinned”. If not…then the “all” does not mean every human being whoever inhabited the planet (unless you believe aborted foetuses are not human beings).

But still I am left with Occam’s razor that forces me to believe that unless there is a good reason to believe an exception I will assume that per Romans 3:23 a human being has sinned. As to unBiblical it depends on whether you find the Catholic alternative explanations of Romans 3:23 (and better Romans 5:12) at least credible. Again I don’t have an opinion either way.

Fourth dogma: The Assumption of Mary. Probably extraBiblical. Only unBiblical of your definition of Sola Scriptura is “if it ain’t in the Bible it ain’t true”. Now whether this is in fact an actual historical event is another issue. If this were a nice little story that some Christians believe concerning Mary that would be another thing (and I would be inclined to believe it - why not), but when put forth as a dogma, I become skeptical. But that is me.

Again this all was [SIGN]my opinion only[/SIGN]
 
Actually this is kind of interesting.

The following is [SIGN]my opinion only[/SIGN]

First dogma: Mary the Mother of God. Not unbiblical. Arguably confusing as she really is the mother of God the Son incarnate. She is not the mother of God the father, God the Holy Spirit, or the preexisting Christ. But this is nitpicking imho.

Second dogma: The perpetual virginity of Mary. At best extraBiblical, at worst unBiblical but not “wildly unBiblical”. I start with Mary was married to Joseph and the assumption with married couples is that they have sex. Plus you add that to the fact that the Bible does mention brothers of Jesus, and Occam’s razor forces me to believe the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. So then question of whether the Bible mentioning the brothers of Jesus Christ is a showstopper that that makes this unBiblical or whether the Catholic explanation of these Scriptures is at least credible (meaning you don’t buy into it necessarily but at least can see it as an alternatvie). I don’t have an opinion either way to be honest.

Third dogma: The immaculate conception of Mary. Much like the second extraBiblical at worst unBiblical but not “wildly unBiblical”. Reasoning is much like dogma. I start with the fact that “all have sinned” per Romans 3:23. Of course the Catholic response is “have aborted foetuses sinned”. If not…then the “all” does not mean every human being whoever inhabited the planet (unless you believe aborted foetuses are not human beings).

But still I am left with Occam’s razor that forces me to believe that unless there is a good reason to believe an exception I will assume that per Romans 3:23 a human being has sinned. As to unBiblical it depends on whether you find the Catholic alternative explanations of Romans 3:23 (and better Romans 5:12) at least credible. Again I don’t have an opinion either way.

Fourth dogma: The Assumption of Mary. Probably extraBiblical. Only unBiblical of your definition of Sola Scriptura is “if it ain’t in the Bible it ain’t true”. Now whether this is in fact an actual historical event is another issue. If this were a nice little story that some Christians believe concerning Mary that would be another thing (and I would be inclined to believe it - why not), but when put forth as a dogma, I become skeptical. But that is me.

Again this all was [SIGN]my opinion only[/SIGN]
Your post is rather diplomatic though there are differences . Thanks anyway.

First dogma: As we cannot separate the divine Jesus from the man Jesus then your confusion should have no basis. You have to say that Jesus is 50% God and 50% man for you to be right.

Second dogma: While it is true to assume that married couple do have sex, Mary and Joseph is not entirely your ordinary married couple. So your assumption here is not quite accurate.

Third dogma: You are OK with the Immaculate Conception, I suppose.

Fourth dogma: Catholics have never claimed that this is from the Bible. Tradition.

God bless and welcome back.
 
Your post is rather diplomatic though there are differences . Thanks anyway.

First dogma: As we cannot separate the divine Jesus from the man Jesus then your confusion should have no basis. You have to say that Jesus is 50% God and 50% man for you to be right.

Second dogma: While it is true to assume that married couple do have sex, Mary and Joseph is not entirely your ordinary married couple. So your assumption here is not quite accurate.

Third dogma: You are OK with the Immaculate Conception, I suppose.

Fourth dogma: Catholics have never claimed that this is from the Bible. Tradition.

God bless and welcome back.
As far as first dogma I am not saying I am confused necessarily. But I can understand why some are confused. I guess that is all I am saying.

As far as “OK with the Immaculate Conception” I approach that the same as the perpetual virginity one. It all depends on what your definition and standard of “unBiblical” is. My standard I guess is “beyond any reasonable doubt” so thus I avoid the “these are wildly unBiblical” approach. At the same time, doesn’t mean I buy into 'em.

BTW I would suggest in any debate on whether these are “unBiblical” that you first ask what the standard for “unBiblical” is. Interesting question…would be an interesting thread in itself.

Fourth: I get that. Separate issue.
 
It’s simple logic, my friend. To devote yourself to one doesn’t make you closer to another. One devotes himself to the one he desires to be closer to - not another.The issue wasn’t about one’s faith but the object of one’s devotion.Your hope being built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness is based on Divine revelation, not your devotion to your wife. I know many unbelieving husbands who are devoted to their wives and have no hope in Christ. Your statement is non sequitur, a conclusion that does not follow from the premise.
Actually, Christ Himself, in taking on our humanity, has made closeness to other people a condition for closeness to Him (i.e. Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren, that you do unto ME).

We are not saved outside the Body of Christ which is the Church and the Communion of Saints. We are saved by Christ within the context of the Communion of Saints. Christ Himself commands us not to approach Him if we are at enmity with our neighbour - if we are not close to our neighbour, He doesn’t want to see us. We are to first make peace with everyone in love and then we are to approach Christ.

Also, to read the Scriptures outside the context of the Church is also something which is forbidden by Christ. He expressly said that if we listen not to His Church, we are to be treated like outcasts.

To be close to the Virgin Mary and to the saints brings us closer to Christ because we experience how they lived their lives of commitment to Christ, how they, in their lives, reflected different aspects of the eternal, Incarnate Son of God.

John Wesley is one of those who inspires me, so does William Wilberforce, St Francis, St Martin de Porres, Jerome Savonarola and many, many others - the cloud of witnesses.

Veneration for any one of these leads us to Christ.

You refer frequently to “logic.” I hold a doctorate in the social sciences and have studied logic. Logic is not immutable and it varies in accordance with what we believe about politics and our “weltanschauung.” In matters of faith, it is always important to think with the mind of the Church inspired by the Holy Spirit and not with secular logic.

Alex
 
John Wesley is one of those who inspires me, so does William Wilberforce, St Francis, St Martin de Porres, Jerome Savonarola and many, many others - the cloud of witnesses.
The issue was “devotion,” not “inspiration.” One certainly can be inspired by the lives of godly men who lived their lives for and in the service of Christ (especially the Apostle Paul), but to “devote” one’s self to any of them does not lead one to Christ. To the contrary (1 Cor. 1:12-13).
 
The issue was “devotion,” not “inspiration.” One certainly can be inspired by the lives of godly men who lived their lives for and in the service of Christ (especially the Apostle Paul), but to “devote” one’s self to any of them does not lead one to Christ. To the contrary (1 Cor. 1:12-13).
MD…context…

When taken in whole…1 Corinthians 1:10-17 (New International Version)

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas**”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

When taken in whole…this does not speak of devotion, but, division regarding leadership in the Church.**
 
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Now Acts chapter two is a referrence to the Holy Spirit and what will be.

I say that to say this.

In September 1953, Pope Pius XII inaugurated the Roman Catholic Church’s First Marian Year, or “Little Holy Year,” devoted to the Virgin Mary who had always been the object of his special veneration. He announced the Marian Year in his encyclical letter “Fulgens Corona”. Hundreds of thousands of Romans lined the route of the papal cortege when Pius XII, in one of his rare appearances in the streets of Rome, went to the Basilica of St. Mary Major to open the Marian Year on Dec. 8, 1953—the 99th anniversary of the proclaiming of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary by Pope Pius IX.

One hundred years before, Pius IX, surrounded by a vast retinue of Cardinals and Bishops, with infallible apostolic authority defined, pronounced and solemnly sanctioned in the dogmatic bull Ineffabilis Deus:

Dogmas and Doctrines

Mother of God • Perpetual virginity • Immaculate Conception • Assumption • Mother of the Church • Mediatrix • Co-Redemptrix

The doctrine, which holds that the Most Blessed Virgin Mary at the first moment of her conception was, by singular grace and privilege of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the Human race, preserved from all stains of original sin, is revealed by God, and therefore to be firmly and resolutely believed by all the faithful.

{The encyclicals states}, that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Our Lady of Lourdes herself seemingly wished to confirm the definition, since in less than four years in a French town of Lourdes, “the Virgin Mother, youthful and benign in appearance, clothed in a shining white garment, covered with a white mantle and girded with a hanging blue cord, showed herself to a simple and innocent girl at the grotto of Massabielle. And to this same girl, earnestly inquiring the name of her with whose vision she was favored, with eyes raised to heaven and sweetly smiling, she replied:

I am the Immaculate Conception.
This was properly interpreted by the faithful, who from all nations, and almost countless in number, flocked in pious pilgrimage to the grotto of Lourdes. This doctrine of the immaculate conception is based on Sacred Scripture and the early fathers. Though Thomas Aquinas himself did not support the doctrine of the immaculate conception, he does state that “The Blessed Virgin, because she is the Mother of God, has a certain infinite dignity from the infinite good, which is God” …and: “The Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God: therefore, she is the purest and the most holy, so that under God a greater purity cannot be understood” (Cf. Summa Theologiae,

The encyclical notes that Non-Catholics and protestant reformers are mistaken when because of this pretext they find fault with, or disapprove of, our devotion to the Virgin Mother of God, as if it took something from the worship due to God alone and to Jesus Christ. The contrary is true because “any honor and veneration which we may give to our Heavenly Mother undoubtedly redounds to the glory of her Divine Son, not only because all graces and all gifts, even the highest, flow from Him as from their primary source, but also because “The glory of children are their fathers”

Pope Pius XII links the solemn definition of the Immaculate Conception with his dogma of the corporal Assumption of the Virgin Mary into Heaven. It seems to him, that the faithful can with greater and better reason turn their minds and hearts to the mystery of the Immaculate Conception. For the two dogmas are intimately connected in close bond. And now that the Assumption of the Virgin Mary into Heaven has been promulgated and shown in its true light—that is, as the crowning and complement of the prior privilege bestowed upon her—there emerge more fully and more clearly the wonderful wisdom and harmony of the Divine plan, by which God wishes the most blessed Virgin Mary to be free from all stain of original sin.

It seems that the Blessed Virgin Mary herself wished to confirm by some special sign the definition, which the Vicar of her Divine Son on earth had pronounced amidst the applause of the whole Church. For indeed four years had not yet elapsed when, in a French town at the foot of the Pyrenees, the Virgin Mother, youthful and benign in appearance, clothed in a shining white garment, covered with a white mantle and girded with a hanging blue cord, showed herself to a simple and innocent girl at the grotto of Massabielle. And to this same girl, earnestly inquiring the name of her with whose vision she was favored, with eyes raised to heaven and sweetly smiling, she replied: “I am the Immaculate Conception.”

Fulgens Corona Encyclical of Pope Pius XII
 
MD…context…

When taken in whole…1 Corinthians 1:10-17 (New International Version)

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas**”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

When taken in whole…this does not speak of devotion, but, division regarding leadership in the Church.**It certainly is of devotion: lit. “I of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Peter.” Paul’s subsequent, personal question to them reveals it: “Was Paul crucified for you?” This isn’t merely talking about “leadership.” What was building there was a total distraction from Christ Himself and total devotion to Him alone. As vividly expressed in the rest of the Epistle.
 
It certainly is of devotion: lit. “I of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Peter.” Paul’s subsequent, personal question to them reveals it: “Was Paul crucified for you?” This isn’t merely talking about “leadership.” What was building there was a total distraction from Christ Himself and total devotion to Him alone. As vividly expressed in the rest of the Epistle.
Pardon me, but I think you are inferring something in the passage that is not there…to justify your belief, is I may say so.

*10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

When read in light of the preceeding verse, the passage “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas**, means the Corinthians are divided according the leadership. And where does this speak of devotion? Look at verse 10, it is an appeal for unity.***
 
It’s simple logic, my friend. To devote yourself to one doesn’t make you closer to another. One devotes himself to the one he desires to be closer to - not another…
I’m a devoted mother. I. am. devoted. to my children. I’m also devoted to my husband.
Jesus is my LORD and SAVIOR. I only WORSHIP GOD.
Jesus is the only way, the only truth, and the only LIFE. There is no other way to the Father, except through Jesus Christ. In Him I live, and move, and have my being.

“No one who loves son or daughter, or husband or wife, MORE THAN ME, is worthy of me.”

Being devoted, loving, adoring, talking, praying to, ANYTHING, doesn’t mean that I am worshiping ANYTHING OTHER than GOD.
 
Graceandglory said it well, devotion and worship are two different things…

MD, are you devoted to any friends that help you grow in Christ???
 
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