Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

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I’m a devoted mother. I. am. devoted. to my children.
Yes, and by your devotion to them you get closer to them, not your neighbor’s children.
I’m also devoted to my husband.
Yes, and by your devotion to him you get closer to him, not your neighbor’s husband. You’re making my point.

AGAIN: One devotes himself/herself to the one he/she desires to be closer to - not another.
Jesus is my LORD and SAVIOR. I only WORSHIP GOD.
Non sequitur.
 
MD, are you devoted to any friends that help you grow in Christ???
Yes, but my devotion to them is to become closer to them. But I don’t devote myself to them in order to get closer to Christ. I devote myself to Christ in order to get closer to Christ.

AGAIN: One devotes himself to the one he desires to be closer to - not another.
 
MD,

What is bac???

You are looking at the Scriptures as a book without a church, without a gathering. Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Because you are playing words against words…I have attended Protestant services and shared with Protestant brethren. There aspects of our faith that we can share and pray together.

Have you ever attended a fellowship with Catholics?

If you have not gone to any Mass, or a prayer group, or parish event that draws on the historical traditions of our faith, what we are doing here is a play on words.

We don’t relate to Scripture looking at each word, pulling out an English dictionary, trying to find more spiritual depth with the word or phrase. We relate to our faith as an event with the gathering of believers. We through the Holy Spirit and prayer incarnate the Word of God into Church, into communion.

We don’t do this: ‘Well, today we are going to take about Matthew 13, verse 10 to 20.’ We wouldn’t know what the passage is about by identifying it as such. There are Protestants out there who know what the passage is just by hearing the numbers.

We identify the story once we hear it. If I were to go to daily Mass, in a 3 year period, I would hear all of the Bible. For us the Word of God is living. When we go to Mass and hear the Old Testament readings, we are at an event and are witnesses to what happened to the Jewish people on their faith journey…we hear about the people, their trials, their successes…we see ourselves living out the same path in our daily lives.

Just as the Jews have had their personages, the Holy Spirit moves through the Christian church to have our personages, epics, witnesses of great individuals in difficult times, and they begin with the Apostles. But the Church continues to bring forth great people in the lives of our saints. Witness to Christ did not end at Revelation. Christ said He would leave us His Holy Spirit and teach us many things.

We have feast days during the week with the readings of the Old and New Testaments with the Gospel, and then hear what the saint did and how the Scripture and the testimony of a saint connect and reveal life and example for us, as well as know this saint and countless others are in heaven praying for our behalf…as it says, ‘heaven watches us with a thousand eyes’. Christ continues to teach us through the saints more indepth about life in Him through various charisms, but always with the key factor of unity…all bearing the same fruit of Jesus Christ.

The Bible has God as its author. God works through human beings - sinful, fallen creatures, but nevertheless, those who aspire to God. ‘Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must through the Holy Spirit, "open our minds to understand Scripture.’
I have studied the bible my entire life, mainly at Mass which is followed the reception of the Body and Blood of Jesus. It is a most sacred moment.

But we want to understand the Scripture in truth, and so we must always take into account the intent of the author and the times they lived in.

What is important because Scripture is inspired, is that the truth of Scripture is ‘differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression.’…Council…

We as Catholics are 'attentive to the content and unity of the whole Scripture…God’s plan of unity with Christ at the heart and center, open since his passover–CC112.

We Catholics read the Scripture within the living Tradition of the whole Church…Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart, CC113–the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives spiritual interpretation of Scripture granted to the Church.

And finally, we Catholics are attentive to the analogy of faith—the coherence or unity of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation–CC114.

Thus we approach Scripture indeed as God’s inspired word, that it is Jesus Himself the Word Made Flesh Who is at the heart of Scripture, and His Holy Spirit interpreting His word, not just for an individual as would be in forms of Sola Scriptura, but rather in context for the whole church – the communion of believers.

With this spiritual and reflective approach, and contemplating on the salvation history of peoples, it is only natural for us in drawing on the Word Made Flesh, that we also acknowledge the source of Christ’s Flesh – His Blessed Mother, and to honor and respect her in her relation to Christ and sharing in His mission by cooperating with God in bringing forth the Messiah – and the first to proclaim Him while He was still in her womb to her cousin Elizabeth, and in her relation to us.

Mary prays continually for us to grow closer to her Son, and we as church know her countless work as a refuge for sinners and our greatest advocate before God the Father in heaven.

It is so sad to come to Scripture in such a way and not know all the graces that are given to us as Church. You only come to the end of Revelations but you do not go to the next step of all the great Christians who came to life and who also venerated Our Mother.

There is so much we have universally come to know about Mary, how she herself has helped many be delivered from the hands of the evil one or saved others from injury by her prayers, how she restores confidence in a soul as a mother, so a person can have courage to face God again.
 
One devotes himself/herself to the one he/she desires to be closer to - not another
Again, that is simply not Christian.

When Christians devote ourselves to our spouse, we grow closer to Christ. And when we grow closer to Christ, we will devote ourselves more to our spouses.

And when Christians devote ourselves to the poor (see Mother Teresa), we grow closer to Christ. And when we are closer to Christ, we will devote ourselves more to the poor.

[BIBLEDRB]Matt 25:34-45[/BIBLEDRB]
 
MD,

What is bac???

You are looking at the Scriptures as a book without a church, without a gathering. Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Because you are playing words against words…I have attended Protestant services and shared with Protestant brethren. There aspects of our faith that we can share and pray together.

Have you ever attended a fellowship with Catholics?

If you have not gone to any Mass, or a prayer group, or parish event that draws on the historical traditions of our faith, what we are doing here is a play on words.

We don’t relate to Scripture looking at each word, pulling out an English dictionary, trying to find more spiritual depth with the word or phrase. We relate to our faith as an event with the gathering of believers. We through the Holy Spirit and prayer incarnate the Word of God into Church, into communion.

We don’t do this: ‘Well, today we are going to take about Matthew 13, verse 10 to 20.’ We wouldn’t know what the passage is about by identifying it as such. There are Protestants out there who know what the passage is just by hearing the numbers.

We identify the story once we hear it. If I were to go to daily Mass, in a 3 year period, I would hear all of the Bible. For us the Word of God is living. When we go to Mass and hear the Old Testament readings, we are at an event and are witnesses to what happened to the Jewish people on their faith journey…we hear about the people, their trials, their successes…we see ourselves living out the same path in our daily lives.
Great post. 👍

The Bible is not about who know the chapters and the verses better; not about nitpicking what each word means or taking out the dictionary and quarrel about its definition; it is about its relevance to one’s life. The Bible is useless if one’s life is not based, motivated and taught by it. The Bible can only be useful because now we know better; we don’t have to go through the mistakes that Biblical people did but learn from their lesson and follow the examples accordingly.

If Protestants identify with this, then you do not have any problem with Catholics because this is how we see the Bible and its role in our spiritual life. If you don’t, then you’ll always have a problem with Catholic because you do not understand how we live and what the Bible means to us. The importance of the Bible in Catholicism is demonstrated by its inclusion in the mass as the Liturgy of the Word which is the summit of Catholic worship.
 
Friend,

I understand the “Catholic version” of Marian dogma…there is a long history involved in Marian beliefs and development…the influences which attributed to it’s development was fostered by the pagan “need” of a “goddess”…Mary filled that void as the “Mother of God”…“Queen of Heaven”…titles and positions many of the pagan goddesses…especially Isis…held in Roman belief.
Dear Publisher,

I work a lot and am unable to respond daily. BUT, please try to understand that all beliefs in any faith, denomination and or race, political field, etc. always have an antithesis to combat a truth someone believes. That’s life in general.

The President of Iran claims the Holocaust never happened. What’s that all about?

I guess the more time people spend trying to disprove a highly believed account of things, the more believable the account becomes. Just think about what I just said. If it’s so unbelievable, it should take no time at all to prove it false. No, don’t say it’s too complicated to disprove with one or two statements. If one has to keep debating a simple account with tons and tons of backup, the account is thus proven by the inability of the disbeliever to prove his counterpoint.

Now, I believe this makes more sense than tons and tons of counterpoints that never appear to complete the mission .

For those who believe, there is no explanation necessary. For those who don’t believe, there is no explanation possible.

May God Bless us all.

JPaul1953
 
Exactly…fundamentalism is looking at Scripture without Church.

MD, can you divorce yourself then from Christian fellowship and support and look to the Word of God as Sola Scriptura??? Do you have any Christian friends devoted to you that provide you support in your faithwalk?

I have friends for many years who have supported me in my faith walk.

I also have the communion of saints to support me, who are – devoted to me— so I keep faith. Devotion is an endearment, an appreciation and giving proper to the other we love, we support and find mutual faith and common ground.

You are mixing up worship with devotion and veneration…again this making no sense to you if you have no experience witnessing Catholic faith in action.

I was thinking about you after I wrote this post when I couldn’t sleep…

Do you have Cable TV?

There is a channel – if you can tolerate putting it on every day and looking at all the different types of programs, and it is called EWTN. I am thinking more now of advising people such as yourself to study Catholicism from its people. It shows all sorts of movements, events, activities, scholars of liturgy and history, lives of the saints, domestic life…

If you will turn to EWTN, rather than argue about something that is outside your perspective in life, you may begin to see how we Catholics relate to Scripture – as a gathering of people who are renewed in Jesus Christ and have our own history of faith as the Jews…but it is now so much greater because our faith encompasses the entire world. The Daily Sacrifice is being offered every day and every hour for your salvation and mine.

Study Catholicism from its people on EWTN.
 
**I don’t think **that’s altogether true in a religious context.
That’s the whole point, MD. IT’s not all about what MD thinks. We don’t think through the mind of MD, but through the mind of the Church, which, in its 2000 yr history proves to be much wiser than a mere human being.
 
Friend,

I understand the “Catholic version” of Marian dogma…there is a long history involved in Marian beliefs and development…the influences which attributed to it’s development was fostered by the pagan “need” of a “goddess”…Mary filled that void as the "Mother of God**"…“Queen of Heaven”…**titles and positions many of the pagan goddesses…especially Isis…held in Roman belief.
So, you deny Jesus as God? Because we acknowledge Christ’s divinity through the statement that Mary was the Mother of God.

Have you ever heard of the “Queen Mother”? In Israel (and in other nations), The Queen Mother is the Mother of the King. For example, Bathsheba, Queen of Israel, Mother of Solomon, Son of David, who was King of Israel.

Now, we agree that Christ is of the Davidic line? And that he is the King of Kings? Then, what do we call his Mother? Queen, of course. The Queen Mother.
 
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Publisher:
Friend,

I understand the “Catholic version” of Marian dogma…there is a long history involved in Marian beliefs and development…the influences which attributed to it’s development was fostered by the pagan “need” of a “goddess”…Mary filled that void as the “Mother of God”…“Queen of Heaven”…titles and positions many of the pagan goddesses…especially Isis…held in Roman belief.
I thought that I could comment on this post too.

This is actually personal opinion. Catholics quite rightly feel unjustly treated by this accusation. However, what I can see - this is a comment from someone who stubbornly fails to see the justification of the so-called Marian dogma and needs to attribute it to anything else rather than to Christianity. What’s an unfortunate piece of misplaced scholarly attribution.

In a way Publisher is right in that it fills in the needs of paganistic belief; only that it is not ‘manufactured’ as Publisher seems to imply but that it is Christian and it is Biblical, as has been explained. The term ‘Mother of God’ and ‘Queen of Heaven’ are as Biblical as they can get. However, there is no way we can explain to Publisher if he has already made up his mind that they are of pagan origin. 🤷
 
Friend,

I understand the “Catholic version” of Marian dogma…there is a long history involved in Marian beliefs and development…the influences which attributed to it’s development was fostered by the pagan “need” of a “goddess”…Mary filled that void as the “Mother of God”…“Queen of Heaven”…titles and positions many of the pagan goddesses…especially Isis…held in Roman belief.
Wow, I always thought Quakers were more open-minded. If you truly believe what you wrote, the monkey is on your back to defend it. Please provide the proof.
 
I already explained that sufficiently from a biblical point of view, which you disagree with. You avoided the question, “how can God be born and be eternal?” Because the answer is so evident that you must side-step it and use a profusion of words to walk around the obvious. God has no Mother, if He did He would be a CREATURE; Jesus the God-man was born in the likeness of human flesh because this is the “tool” or “means” which He chose to reveal Himself into our little time-space box rather than in the holy of holies. You obviously are unable to comprehend the two natures and the relationship and importantance this has for man. I suggest you read and study your Bible on this topic before you continue on wit this discussion, which is really not a discussion.
so am i to understand, you do not hold to the idea of a triune God? the truth is, is that Jesus is God the Son. eternal, and omniscient. he is the one who appeared to Moses and said, I AM. he is the one who descended into the tabernacle, through the cloud, and spoke with Moses face to face. He was the one Moses knew to be the Great I AM. the God of abraham issac and jacob. and he is the one that was born to Mary. she was not an incubator. she is the Mother of God. to say otherwise, you deny the deity of Christ. you either accept the biblical account, or you dont. i think you are the one who has a failure to comprehend the mysteries of which the bible speaks. but i dont fault you. it take the Holy Spirit to open up a persons mind to the truth. all the studying in the world will not help you, or anyone else. even though allusions to the Blessed Mother are throughout the whole bible. just as there are for all of Gods redemptive plan. baptism, Christ, the Cross, the ressurection. all these things are typified in the old testament. Peace 🙂
 
Wow, I always thought Quakers were more open-minded. If you truly believe what you wrote, the monkey is on your back to defend it. Please provide the proof.
quakers are more leftist than anything. they are only open minded to a liberal point of view. however it looks like publisher buys into the myth that the Church was infiltrated by paganism. interesting…many of the Church fathers that have been accused of this, were in fact martyred fighting the pagan system… peace 🙂
 
It was some time ago, but somebody came forward with documents verifying the Church did not develop our faith and practices from paganism.

However, there are cultures that the Church reflect on in pagan practices, and helped retain a need but Christianize it.

My mission had the priests Christianize blessings for crops.
 
I thought that I could comment on this post too.

This is actually personal opinion. Catholics quite rightly feel unjustly treated by this accusation. However, what I can see - this is a comment from someone who stubbornly fails to see the justification of the so-called Marian dogma and needs to attribute it to anything else rather than to Christianity. What’s an unfortunate piece of misplaced scholarly attribution.

In a way Publisher is right in that it fills in the needs of paganistic belief; only that it is not ‘manufactured’ as Publisher seems to imply but that it is Christian and it is Biblical, as has been explained. The term ‘Mother of God’ and ‘Queen of Heaven’ are as Biblical as they can get. However, there is no way we can explain to Publisher if he has already made up his mind that they are of pagan origin. 🤷
Friend, if by “stubborn” you mean I do not accept the historical developements of doctine as put forth by the Catholic church as “gospel truth”…then yes I am stubborn.

I have no problem with your beliefs…I simply do not embrace them.
 
Wow, I always thought Quakers were more open-minded. If you truly believe what you wrote, the monkey is on your back to defend it. Please provide the proof.
Friend,

I am very open minded…but open minded does not mean one embraces the history and teachings of the Catholic church. I understand your position…but I have no need to rid myself of a non-existent “monkey on my back”…I have no need to “defend” my position as for me I have no need to “proove” my position to anyone…I have no desire to seek to change anyone’s religious position on the subject…I gave my position based on my own study of church history and doctrinal development…that it conflicts with the official Catholic position is not a big “shock” to me…but it has answered my questions to my satisfaction…just as your questions concerning the subject has been answered to yours.

Peace to you friend.
 
quakers are more leftist than anything. they are only open minded to a liberal point of view. however it looks like publisher buys into the myth that the Church was infiltrated by paganism. interesting…many of the Church fathers that have been accused of this, were in fact martyred fighting the pagan system… peace 🙂
The Yearly Meeting I belong to does have what you call “liberal” beliefs…however…the majority of Friends in the world are conservative in theology.🙂
 
If Jesus is the second Adam, who took on flesh from his Mother Mary, making the blessed Mother the new Eve. Now if Mary the Mother of Jesus “God is with us”= Emanuel. And we are one in Christ Jesus by virtue of our baptism, that makes us Mary’s offspring, those who obey the commandments of God and give witness to Jesus.

Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon became angry with **the woman **and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus

I find this new interpretation of history that the Catholic church in 431 a.d was influenced by paganology?. One cannot be further from the Truth here. For one the Church defined the trinity, the nature of Christ, and the doctrine of “theotokos” God barrier. Most of these bishops present who refuted paganology and heresies with these revealed apostolic teachings came from the East not pagan Rome.

If this false pretense were true, “how can a house divided against itself stand”? The Roman Catholic church has been around these past 2000 years and counting. History records the Catholic Church defeating paganology, heresies and heretics.

Trying to decieve history by making the claim the Early Christians (Catholics) raised Mary the blessed Mother of Jesus to the height of replacing the false goddess “Isis” is very lacking in truth.

It would be like comparing the early Jewish converts to Christianity took on Pagan Rome’s belief’s who made their “Ceasars” gods, made Jesus a God. This type of new false interpretation of history only decieves and deny’s what God has revealed. It’s remarkable how man can distort what God has revealed.

I believe the false ideas of early Church history and councils, need to provide proof first before spreading poison of God’s revelation. The burden of proof lies with the false accusser. If no proof can be provided from Eye witnesses or Church councils that took on these false pagan belief’s then, scripture comes to pass;

1Tim.5:13
And furthermore, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers but gossips and busybodies as well, talking about things that ought not to be mentioned.

All the Marian doctrines can be proven from 2000 years of Catholic faith, both Old and New testaments including Apostolic Tradition followed by signs and miracles from heaven.

Peace be with you
 
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