Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

[KathleenGee]

Hesychios…

So you do not believe Mary was immaculately conceived? I thought Orthodox do.

I think Catholics like the Orthodox better than the Orthodox like Catholics.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

“Church dogma (doctrine) interprets sacred scripture” Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

mark a;7311103]I can’t think of a single Church dogma that’s easy to swallow. If I can accept that the one God of the universe is a Trinity of persons, I can surely accept that one of these persons wanted his Mother with him.

Which original apostolic Church has her relics? Or has ever claimed to have had them?

 

[mark_a]

“Church dogma (doctrine) interprets sacred scripture” Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

Could you clarify?

 

[KathleenGee]

Well, Gabriel is very busy…comes back when he has time.

Note that there were already heretics present among the followers of Jesus. Many left immediately before the Last Supper. The Apostles were always rebuking false teachings, misinterpretations and implementation of the Gospel into every day life of the Church.

Christ chose 12 Apostles…not just one. Because we are a gathering of people…and it took many people many years through the Magesterium – the Holy Spirit – to build and implement the Gospel through Christ’s Church, to discern which books to compile for the Bible…so we need to have a true teaching of Jesus Christ – doctrine – to understand Scripture in the context of the whole of salvation, not bits and parts that often times mislead people into starting ‘new’ churches.

This past August there were some very insightful articles written on the Transfiguration of Christ, what it meant, the explanation of the glorious state, and how the feastday of the Transfiguration, August 6, preceded the feast day of Mary’s glorious assumption into heaven…possible only by her immaculate conception vs the consequence of sin on our mortal bodies…we conceived with sin.

It takes studying the lives of the saints – no hallucinations here --, the teachings of the doctors of the Church, and to apply one’s self to a deeper spiritual life drawing on the mystical union with Jesus Christ. Only by learning authentic spirituality and drawing closer to Christ, knowing Who He is and who we are not, will eventually lead someone to understand Mary and our devotion to her.

It is a great disservice to our faith to see people put notices in about people seeing Mary or Christ in all sorts of places…it is denigrating and makes Catholics look like kooks.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher, do you beleive in the Holy Trinity, that Jesus is divine?

I do not accept nor confess your creeds as “authorative”…nor as something I “need to confess”…we are “non-creedal”. I do not use the “creeds” to determine one’s spiritual standing…the conduct of one’s life is more important than the “creeds” one professes…one can profess the creeds…but their lives are void of the power and love of God in them…"even the devils believe and tremble’

However I believe God was made known through Jesus of Nazareth…that in some way I do not understand nor can comprehend God lived as one of us in the man Jesus.

“The Word became flesh and dwelled among us.” (John 1:14)

"He is the exact representation of His image.’ (Heb 1:3)

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage (NIV Phil 2:6)

God is Holy Mystery and all creeds, doctines and dogmas are lacking in outlining this Mystery.

 

[Tomster]

I do not accept nor confess your creeds as “authorative”…nor as something I “need to confess”…we are “non-creedal”. I do not use the “creeds” to determine one’s spiritual standing…the conduct of one’s life is more important than the “creeds” one professes…one can profess the creeds…but their lives are void of the power and love of God in them…"even the devils believe and tremble’

However I believe God was made known through Jesus of Nazareth…that in some way I do not understand nor can comprehend God lived as one of us in the man Jesus.

“The Word became flesh and dwelled among us.” (John 1:14)

"He is the exact representation of His image.’ (Heb 1:3)

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage (NIV Phil 2:6)

God is Holy Mystery and all creeds, doctines and dogmas are lacking in outlining this Mystery.

Sounds like the beginning of your own personal “creed” pub.

 

[Publisher]

Sounds like the beginning of your own personal “creed” pub.

For Friends, God is experienced. Our lives WILL reflect that experience, and if one’s life does not conform to one’s professed doctrines…they are “tinkling brass and clanging gongs”.

Yes, I guess I do have my own “creed” I live by…I simply do not use “my creed” as a yardstick to measure others walk with God…their lives are the “true story”…not the creed they profess.

I believe it was Paul who said something to the effect that our lives are “open letters”…Francis said something similar…“preach the gospel at all times and if necessary use words.”

 

[PRmerger]

Francis said something similar…“preach the gospel at all times and if necessary use words.”

Actually, in recent times it’s been determined that this quote has been falsely attributed to St. Francis.

Good quote nonetheless!

 

[Publisher]

Actually, in recent times it’s been determined that this quote has been falsely attributed to St. Francis.

Good quote nonetheless!

Well, if he didn’t say it…he should have. It is a good quote.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, I guess I do have my own “creed” I live by…I simply do not use “my creed” as a yardstick to measure others walk with God…their lives are the “true story”…not the creed they profess.

This, I believe, is not quite true. You would use your yardstick to discern that a man who proclaims that blacks are not allowed in his church, despite his quoting bible verses supporting his doctrine of racism, is wrong.

 

[Publisher]

This, I believe, is not quite true. You would use your yardstick to discern that a man who proclaims that blacks are not allowed in his church, despite his quoting bible verses supporting his doctrine of racism, is wrong.

Not allowing African Americans in his congregation would be wrong…no matter WHAT he professed…his actions determine the state of his soul…which I would see as “lacking”.

How one behaves and treats his neighbor trumps what one professes IMO, if a man is given over to racism then by my “yardstick”, he is not walking in the Light…I still MUST answer and honor that of God within him…the way he lives his life does not determine how I live mine.

 

[KathleenGee]

St John the Evangelist was the apostle ‘whom Jesus loved’. St. John understood that the whole message of Christ was truth and love.

St. John the Evangelist was known to walk out of public baths when those professing a different Jesus or different message using His name would enter.

Doctrines protect us and ensure us in the true Jesus Who always prayed we would be one.

The dogmas of Mary reflect on the deeper spiritual walk with Christ leading us to heaven.

No offense, Publisher, but alot of people are reacting to the words ‘doctrine’ or ‘dogma’ because they do not believe God works through human authority, and thus we have an anarchy of understanding of Christ and what it means as church and this is not being one.

Once people can understand Catholicism, they can see there is nobody lording doctrine or dogmas over our heads, putting us into some kind of bondage.

 

[PRmerger]

Not allowing African Americans in his congregation would be wrong…no matter WHAT he professed…his actions determine the state of his soul…which I would see as “lacking”.

How one behaves and treats his neighbor trumps what one professes IMO, if a man is given over to racism then by my “yardstick”, he is not walking in the Light…I still MUST answer and honor that of God within him…the way he lives his life does not determine how I live mine.

'zactly.

You have then used your yardstick to measure another’s creed/profession/doctrine/behavior/way of life.

 

[Publisher]

St John the Evangelist was the apostle ‘whom Jesus loved’. St. John understood that the whole message of Christ was truth and love.

St. John the Evangelist was known to walk out of public baths when those professing a different Jesus or different message using His name would enter.

Doctrines protect us and ensure us in the true Jesus Who always prayed we would be one.

The dogmas of Mary reflect on the deeper spiritual walk with Christ leading us to heaven.

No offense, Publisher, but alot of people are reacting to the words ‘doctrine’ or ‘dogma’ because they do not believe God works through human authority, and thus we have an anarchy of understanding of Christ and what it means as church and this is not being one.

Once people can understand Catholicism, they can see there is nobody lording doctrine or dogmas over our heads, putting us into some kind of bondage.

My point…and that of Quakerism…"“all christians are believers, both Protestants and Papists;” The Lord opened to me that if all were believers, then they were all born of God, and had passed from death to life; [becoming a new creature, old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new] and that none were true believers unless that had happened; and though others said they were believers, yet they were not." George Fox

**Please note, “papist” was used in the same manner as “Protestants” in Fox’s mind…it is a quote from a man who lived in the 17th century…it is not meant as an offense on this board…what one professed was not as important as how one lived and acted…“walk the walk, not just talk the talk.”

 

[KathleenGee]

I appreciate that and know Quakers in Oregon…one on his deathbed said if he’d change, he would switch to being an Episcopalian or Catholic.

I also heard from my Jewish associations that the young Jewish people have a lot of respect for the Quakers.

I wish it would be that easy for us Catholics. We are as old as Christianity. And a long history, good and bad. And the Church opposes the world, so we are never have been popular. It would be so easy if we did not believe in the sanctity and permanency of marriage, redemptive suffering, chastity, and obligations to go to Sunday Mass.

 

[Good_Fella]

I do not accept nor confess your creeds as “authorative”…nor as something I “need to confess”…we are “non-creedal”. I do not use the “creeds” to determine one’s spiritual standing…the conduct of one’s life is more important than the “creeds” one professes…one can profess the creeds…but their lives are void of the power and love of God in them…"even the devils believe and tremble’

However I believe God was made known through Jesus of Nazareth…that in some way I do not understand nor can comprehend God lived as one of us in the man Jesus.

“The Word became flesh and dwelled among us.” (John 1:14)

"He is the exact representation of His image.’ (Heb 1:3)

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage (NIV Phil 2:6)

God is Holy Mystery and all creeds, doctines and dogmas are lacking in outlining this Mystery.

Nevertheless, Jesus told his apostles that there was much more he wanted to tell them, but that they couldn’t bear it then because of the depth of the divine myteries, and so he would send the Spirit of truth (Paraclete) to guide his Church in all truth with regard to matters of faith and morals. Obviously there are things God desires we know of him and his deeds in the history of salvation, that we ought to profess in faith and affirm by how we conduct our lives notwithstanding our intellectual limits and tendency to fall from God’s grace.

PAX :heaven:

 

[Hesychios]

Hesychios…

So you do not believe Mary was immaculately conceived? I thought Orthodox do.

I think Catholics like the Orthodox better than the Orthodox like Catholics.

Your question is framed with some Latin presuppositions, which I might or might not share, depending upon what you mean.

What does Adam’s sin have to you with you or me or Saint Mary of Nazareth? What does ‘immaculate’ mean in your understanding? How does that relate to Adam’s sin?

Do you believe that she also had need of a savior? I thought all Catholics did.

We really need to iron all these details out before we can say we are addressing the same condition, or speaking the same ideas.

I cannot say that I believe she was born with sin any more than I can say you were. You may take understand that to mean that I think she was born with sin, but someone else might take that to mean that you (like her) were not born with sin. This is why I say that you are approaching it with Latin presuppositions, because you are automatically thinking I feel she was born with sin. I think your catechism describes OS in terms of it’s effects, which she sems to share.

It’s a mystery. It is paradoxical and I don’t think we will resolve it here.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Hesychios…

So you do not believe Mary was immaculately conceived? I thought Orthodox do.

I think Catholics like the Orthodox better than the Orthodox like Catholics.

If I might interject on behalf of Hesychios here . . .

Byzantine theology does not accept an Original Sin that is anything other than the inherited consequences of the sin of Adam, most of all, death.

When Hesychios said what he said, he was affirming that no one has a “stain of sin” on their souls when they are conceived. It was because of the absence of that idea of Original Sin in the East that we never saw a movement to have the Conception of the Mother of God declared to be free from such sin.

Now the East does affirm that the Conception of the Mother of God was holy and that she was conceived in holiness in view of her exalted role in salvation history. This is why the feast of her Conception is celebrated in the East (as is also that of St John the Baptist).

She was “All-Holy” and dynamically grew in sanctity. As a result, she felt no pain in giving birth to Christ and her death was so light and sweet that it is referred to as the 'Dormition" or “Falling Asleep.”

In no way, then, has Hesychios separated himself from anything!

Alex

 

[PRmerger]

What does Adam’s sin have to you with you or me or Saint Mary of Nazareth?

It means the loss of supernatural grace that we originally had (we, as in humanity as manifested by Adam and Eve.)

What does ‘immaculate’ mean in your understanding? How does that relate to Adam’s sin?

It means that Mary had this supernatural grace, thus was immaculate.

Do you believe that she also had need of a savior? I thought all Catholics did.

Indeed. She calls the Lord her Savior in Luke.

cannot say that I believe she was born with sin any more than I can say you were.

I was indeed born with the loss of this original state of sanctification. Mary was not.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I can’t think of a single Church dogma that’s easy to swallow. If I can accept that the one God of the universe is a Trinity of persons, I can surely accept that one of these persons wanted his Mother with him.

Which original apostolic Church has her relics? Or has ever claimed to have had them?

In fact, the all-holiness of the Mother of God from her Conception is an ancient liturgical festival that was accepted also by the Catholic Church in England in the sixth century. Her Assumption into heaven is much earlier and we have witnesses to visions of the Mother of God to the Apostles soon after her death (she appeared to them as they were eating and related to them the prayer they should say when they needed her intercession: All Holy Theotokos, help us! The Orthodox monastics have a daily ritual before lunch that celebrates this apparition to this day.).

Rome was only confirming an ancient part of the faith of the Church. But the Eastern Church would have never defined the Immaculate Conception because it never had the West’s view on Original Sin. Alex