Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

[PRmerger]

That’s what men call her but they have nothing to support it. David never elevated his mother to a throne, and Solomon was never given any divine instruction to do so.

Did you know in ancient Israel that the Queen Mother had a position of honor higher than that of the king’s wife? it was the mother who was the Queen, not the king’s wife.

Interesting.

Then with this line of logic you should certainly have no problem calling Jesus a CO-redeemer with Mary.

I never confuse the pilot with the co-pilot.

But by your convoluted logic the real truth escapes you in that without Him there would never be a her (Jn. 1:3).

Well, moon, it is very Catholic of you to say this!

The work of Divine redemption (as well as the work of reconciliation and propitiation) did not begin until the cross. In fact, it (they) began and ended on the cross.

Actually, it began at the Last Supper, the Passover meal, when Jesus became the Lamb of God.

All Mary could do when that work of Christ was being carried out on the cross was watch.

Indeed.

One would think she prayed as well.

And suffered. She filled up that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ, don’t you think?

 

[JustaServant]

Refute away, that’s okay because Ii have Scripture on my side.

As do we.

God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:

1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”

There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:

*Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you** that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.**

Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way** there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents** (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15** I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One**."

2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God." 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.*

 

[JustaServant]

Mary is a part of this Communion of Saints.
She is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "
I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed."
The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture. The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan. This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation,
Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).
In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel.
When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God. The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down,
Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

 

[PRmerger]

Refute away, that’s okay because Ii have Scripture on my side.

Morton, please use the Quote feature correctly. When you nest your posts inside mine, they do not appear for me to refute.

Thus, in your post above, only your last sentence is appearing.

See here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=19771

 

[JustaServant]

My position is NOT to measure one’s importance by how many times one is mentioned in Scripture. I never said that and I think you know that but you wish to continue to blur the point. Here’s the facts: Mary is not mentioned past the Book of Acts and Phillip is not mentioned multiple times by Christ nor carries the accountability of holding a large office in the NT. Phillip is not recognized even to the degree as other saints in the RCC, but Mary on the otherhand is revered by many titles in the Catholic church including Queen of Heaven, Immaculately concevied, perpetually virgin and didn’t ever sin. One of the Popes even created a prayer to Mary which is arguably darn close to worship. Both Phillip and Mary are saints correct? Why not show the same kind of honor and recognition for Mary as the other saints. Why is it elevated far beyond?

Nowhere in Catholic teaching is there anything that directs Catholics to worship Mary. Catholics do not ‘worship’ Mary, we do however venerate her.
Venerate means To regard with respect, reverence, and heartfelt deference.One of the 10 Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.”
One honors their father and mother and respects them. Catholics do so for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.Worship means the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object, which we do not accord to our parents.
We pray “to” Mary in the old sense of the word. In Elizabethan English they would say "I pray thee…… It is a pleading to a person of dignity.
The Hail Mary says “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus! Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
We are first “praying the scriptures”, and second, we are asking Mary to pray for us to the Lord even as I might ask a living Christian to do. For “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
Family members and friends pray with and for one another, because we are the family of God.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Refute away, that’s okay because Ii have Scripture on my side.

The Scripture ended 2000 years ago. While its a fantastic referrence point and rich in History, the Kingdom of God did not end 2000 years ago. By this very logic, what church should we follow then?

Why should Luther or Calvin be paided any attention and not Cathrine Laboure? I fail to see the logic. How do we define Christs Church then? Which btw in Scripture The Rock is Peter and upon him the Church was built. Who sits in Peters chair? Benedict isn’t one of the leading Theologians world wide? Would it be wise to assume you are on his level of Scripture understanding of Christ? Did your read his book on Jesus of Nazareth?

The only debate I see is that you believe by your interpretation of Scripture the Catholic Church in its 2000 years of research is wrong in teaching of the Blessed Mother? What validates your point of view when hundreds of Saints confirm the Catholic Churchs teaching on Mary? Are you the authority and are speaking for God in this generation? Who do you follow yourself then?

 

[Good_Fella]

**Nowhere in Catholic teaching is there anything that directs Catholics to worship Mary. Catholics do not ‘worship’ Mary, we do however venerate her.**Venerate means To regard with respect, reverence, and heartfelt deference.One of the 10 Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.”
One honors their father and mother and respects them. Catholics do so for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.Worship means the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object, which we do not accord to our parents.
We pray “to” Mary in the old sense of the word. In Elizabethan English they would say "I pray thee…… It is a pleading to a person of dignity.
The Hail Mary says “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus! Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
We are first “praying the scriptures”, and second, we are asking Mary to pray for us to the Lord even as I might ask a living Christian to do. For “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
Family members and friends pray with and for one another, because we are the family of God.

Indeed, the early Church (4th century) condemned the Kollyridian sect (composed mainly of women), which spread through Arabia, Thrace, and Scythia, for having offered up sacrificial oblations with a kind of bread (kollyra) to the Blessed Virgin Mary and engaging in other deviant practices.

PAX :heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

Refute away, that’s okay because Ii have Scripture on my side.

Unfortunately, somebody invented the printing press. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph didn’t have a copy of the Torah on their kitchen table for home study. The Temple priests invited the faithful to read passages from it under their guidance during worship service.

Please reflect on Acts 8: 26-40.

PAX :juggle:

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

hello on another thread, a poster, stated that the dogmas relating to our Blessed Mother were “wildly un biblical.”

I’m looking into becoming Catholic. But, the church’s doctrines on Mary is one my largest obstacles. In another thread, someone asked something like “Why not ask the mother of God to intercede on our behalf?” Because no one in the Bible did it, or even hinted at anything like it. No one asked Abraham or Elijah to intercede for them. Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through him. Jesus equates Abraham with God (John 8:36-42), but calls Mary “woman”.

Doctrines of perpetual virginity and Mary being free from original sin are no less head scratchers to me. But, at least these doctrines don’t play a role in the actual practice of Catholicism (as far as I know).

 

[PRmerger]

I’m looking into becoming Catholic. But, the church’s doctrines on Mary is one my largest obstacles. In another thread, someone asked something like “Why not ask the mother of God to intercede on our behalf?” Because no one in the Bible did it, or even hinted at anything like it. No one asked Abraham or Elijah to intercede for them. Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through him. Jesus equates Abraham with God (John 8:36-42), but calls Mary “woman”.

Didn’t St. Paul ask us to intercede for him by our prayers?

Doctrines of perpetual virginity and Mary being free from original sin are no less head scratchers to me. But, at least these doctrines don’t play a role in the actual practice of Catholicism (as far as I know).

Please stay on this forum–you will find all the answers to your questions if you continue to ponder and search!

 

[GreggAlvarez]

That’s what men call her but they have nothing to support it. David never elevated his mother to a throne, and Solomon was never given any divine instruction to do so. IOW, it was a man-made position. Sound familiar?

Sure does sound familiar. Sounds like the same thing you have been saying without any proof for the longest time. We get Mary, Queen of Heaven, from Divine Revelation yet you deny that we do. Revelations 12 cannot be a country because a country cannot be clothed with the moon with the sun under its feet, nor can it be crowned.

Then with this line of logic you should certainly have no problem calling Jesus a CO-redeemer with Mary. Based on your logic she must be preeminent of the two since, as you reason, without “her” there’s no “Him.” But by your convoluted logic the real truth escapes you in that without Him there would never be a her (Jn. 1:3).

Jesus is NOT a co-redeemer! You are not even using our line of logic. There is a principal and a co-principal, pilot and co-pilot, manager and co-manager, one who operates and one who COoperate… It is illogical to equate the latter with the former. Your use of logic is illogical. One can call it “illogic”. But I know you are better than this.

And yes, it is a paradox and a mystery, but it is NOT convoluted. You forget that we also believe that He is eternal. “Mother of God” does not defeat this… In fact, it reinforces His divinity AND humanity. That is if you even understand it which is probably not the case.

There’s no “Co-” anything between them. The work of Divine redemption (as well as the work of reconciliation and propitiation) did not begin until the cross. In fact, it (they) began and ended on the cross. Mary had absolutely nothing to do with any of it. It was His work and His ALONE. There was no “co-redeeming” going on at that time, whatsoever. Nor do the Apostles ever connect Mary with the words “Redeemer” or “redemption” in the theopneustos Epistles.

I guess bringing the Redeemer to the world qualifies as having “absolutely nothing to do with any of it.” Problem is, that is wrong. God had a plan for salvation and hence a history of salvation. That was the point of prophecy and prefigurements. But according to YOUR line of logic, redemption “began and ended on the cross”. Therefore NOBODY is redeemed after it (or before it for that matter). BUT, all Christians believe that we can be redeemed (of course, the doctrines are different but all with similar conclusion). And if one can be redeemed by the grace of God because of an event that happened 2000 years ago, why can it not be that people were redeemed BEFORE the Crucifixion (Immaculate Conception)? Perhaps, the Redemption of man by the Son of Man is more important than any of us (and **Moondweller **especially) can imagine. It is a pivotal point in history for sure. No reason why God cannot use any event in time and transfix it for another time. This is why we call Him “eternal”. He can make an event in the temporal realm eternal (Redemption) and vice-versa (Son of Man).

All Mary could do when that work of Christ was being carried out on the cross was watch. And only after the fact would she then learn the truth about what had been Divinely accomplished there by Christ alone (Eph. 3:4-5).

Agreed.

 

[BryanM27]

I don’t think so. Where do you come up with the idea that you need someone to talk to Jesus? Where does that come from except through Catholisicm?? I can understand asking the saints to pray WITH us as we ask others to pray for us, but this in no way should signify that our prayers are dependent upon being amplified. Scripture tells us that God hears us when we pray. It is shown again and again throughout the OT.

You obviously did not read what I wrote in response to Mikeoffaith. We do not NEED to go through Mary to get to Jesus, however we are encouraged to do so. Doing so shows that we recognize we are not worthy of the gift our Lord has given us. We are humbling ourselves by asking for His mother to bring our petitions and our good works to Him.

Again I point to the parallel with Jacob and Rebecca. Rebecca clothed her son in Esau’s clothing and in wool so that Isaac would give Jacob the blessing. Isaac heard the voice of Jacob, but he felt and smelled Esau.

Mary does the same for us. She cleanses our petitions of the stains of our sinful nature by the grace God gave her as mother of His only begotten son. Thus they appear that much better when presented to the King.

You also questioned the “Queen Mother” and how she is never elevated above the king. How about Bathsheeba, mother of King Solomon?

Also in response to your statement that Christ was never dependent on anyone. You may want to retake Biology 101 and learn how the reproductive system works in regards to pregnancy. Jesus was in the womb for a natural gestation of about 9 months. During this team he only lives as his mother lives. If she dies, so does he. He was fully dependent on her during that time.

Next he was dependent on her as a baby to feed him and on her and Joseph to provide food, clothing, shelter and all the other basics of life. To say he was never dependent on anyone is to reject the notion that he was indeed human for his entire life on earth.

 

[KathleenGee]

The best way to come to learn about Mary is shared faith with fellow Catholics…once you make friends with Catholics on a deep and sincere level…become true friends, then you are most open to learn about Mary…once you witness how we relate to her…then you begin to understand Mary.

This is because Mary is Christian par excellence…Mary is part of the life of the Church.

 

[mortonsam]

Morton, please use the Quote feature correctly. When you nest your posts inside mine, they do not appear for me to refute.

 

[PRmerger]

Is this more of what you are looking for??

Much better. Except you need to keep my name inside the quotes.

There’s lots of ways to quote. One easy way is to use the icon at the top of this typing area that’s next to the envelope. Whatever is highlighted before you hit that icon will then be wrapped in quotes.

 

[mortonsam]

God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:

With all due respect, I am not in need of a lesson in Catholic teaching. I understand that praying for one another is fine. We do it as well. I am well aware of the Communion of Saints. We recognize them too. We also recognize that Mary is foremost of all the saints. I understand that Catholics do not profess to worship Mary and they proclaim to venerate Mary. I am not refuting what the theology says, my objections are geared more toward what has been observed. Don’t make a comentary of making me aware of what Catholics believe on these issues, I already know most of it. I just wanted you to know that. I’m not trying to be snarky about it.

 

[mortonsam]

Much better. Except you need to keep my name inside the quotes.

There’s lots of ways to quote. One easy way is to use the icon at the top of this typing area that’s next to the envelope. Whatever is highlighted before you hit that icon will then be wrapped in quotes.

Ok, no offense was intended, just so you are aware.

 

[PRmerger]

I am not refuting what the theology says, my objections are geared more toward what has been observed.

Well, then, that’s a totally different animal.

What you "observe" is not to be interpreted for what the CC teaches.

I have “observed” much un-Christian behavior in many Bible-believing Christians. I would never confuse their un-Christlike behavior for what their pastor might profess the Bible says.

Also, please tell us where you’ve observed a Catholic going to a statue of Mary for prophesy, and laying gifts at the feet of this statue.

Finally, have you ever laid flowers at the tomb of a loved one? Just wondering.

 

[mortonsam]

Well, then, that’s a totally different animal.

What you "observe"

 

[PRmerger]

That’s not what I was referring to. My premise was that many Catholics are doing one thing and professing to be doing another.

Well, I’m not going to argue with you about what Catholics do.

I only refute those who argue against what Catholicism teaches.

I cannot control what people who are Catholics do. Only what Catholicism is.

I observed it in my parent’s parish on many occasions. The priest was well aware of it and did nothing.

I am going to have to say it. I don’t believe you. * I don’t believe you ever saw a single person going to a statue asking it for a prophesy in a Catholic church. *As for laying gifts at the feet of a statue–if it’s flowers, so what? If it was anything else, then what was it?

Sure I have. But this is obviously to honor the memory of that person. I do not put flowers on the graves of people I didn’t know personally in this physical life. I think that these are two different issues here. I don’t think people lay flowers around a statue of Mary to remember her in a sense of mourning or longing as they would a family member or friend that they were close with in this life.

So you’re not against people laying flowers down in front of an inanimate object, then. You’re against what it indicates.

Ok. That’s fair.

What is it you think it indicates when someone lays flowers down at the foot of a statue of Mary? And how do you know this is what their intention is?