Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

[jlhargus]

It’s true that the Puritans of Salem got swept up into a witch hunt back in the late 1600s and - what was it, 12 or 13? - a number of women (and one man) were executed. I certainly don’t defend such evil wherever it exists. However, in Europe between 20,000 and 30,000 ‘witches’ (some estimate 50,000!) were murdered by Christians, mostly by the Catholic Church. Protestants and Catholics both have been quite intolerant in the past. Isn’t it ironic that those professing their love of Christ would engage in such evil, when Jesus emphasized loving one another. As I recall the Vatican commended three Inquisitions - against the Cathars, against suspected Spanish converts (formerly Jews and Muslims) in Spain, and against Protestants. Even Thomas Aquinas called for the execution of ‘heretics’. I likely would have been put to death for my misgivings back then.

This ceaseless bickering over the alleged errors and failings of fellow Christians is nauseating. It ought to cease and we should seek to serve God as brothers and sisters. Jesus said something about judging one another. In this community Catholics and Protestants (and others) work in healthy concert on a number of community projects, among them a soup kitchen, a food distribution center, and ecumenical services during the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, on Good Friday, and at Thanksgiving. I consider that wonderful - far better than petty carping. The YMCA, condemned by Catholic officialdom years ago because it was founded by Protestant laity, serves as an important catalyst for ecumenical and interfaith cooperation.

JL: If you find bickering over the alleged errors and failings of fellow Christians nauseating. Then why did you start and continue in this post to do so. Now adding the Inquisition and YMCA? Isn’t it hypocritical to bash another’s faith when your group has done the same thing?

Any Catholic on a debate line, for a few months, has heard all these things a hundred times. In my opinion those who post such things usually do so to either divert attention from the fact they have no answer to a particular post. They want to incite the Catholic to anger . Making themselves appear as the innocent victim of uncharitable remarks. Or they actually think the Catholic has never heard these things and will lose their faith.

What has all this to do with Marian doctrines, subject of this thread? For those who can believe them and feel they are substantiated in scripture, fine. For those who can't, fine. What is so notorious about having different viewpoints? While some insist on conformity. I rejoice in the freedom to believe what we honestly can. Doctrine doesn't save us anyway. Our faith in Christ and our efforts to follow his example do.  God bless everybody.

JL: You brought them up tell me.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6294777&postcount=901 Assumption

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5896761&postcount=99 Ark of the Covenant

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7429453&postcount=20 Perpetual Virgin

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7365075&postcount=529 Queen Mother
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7365038&postcount=528 Co-Redeemtrix

 

[jlhargus]

**Several key Marian beliefs can’t be found in the Bible **- for example, the Immaculate Conception.

[GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent Because thou hast done this thou art cursed… 15 And I will put ENMITY between THEE AND THE WOMAN and between THY SEED AND HER SEED it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel] God said, he would put ENMITY between THEE=Satan and THE WOMAN=Mary. Her seed (Christ) would only come after her. Yet God put enmity between Satan and Mary before her seed was born. She would always be at enmity with Satan, as she was never of his seed, therefore not under sin. Like Mary’s seed there was never a time when Mary was not at enmity with Satan.

ROM 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death but to be spiritually minded is life and peace 7 Because the CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY against God [Mary was always at enmity with Satan as God said I WILL PUT ENMITY BETWEEN THEE (SATAN) AND THE WOMAN (MARY).] JAS 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith God resisteth the proud but GIVEGTH GRACE UNTO THE HUMBLE… Wisdom1:4 Because wisdom will not enter a deceitful soul, nor dwell in a body enslaved to sin.

[LK 1:46 And MARY SAID MY SOUL DOTH MAGNIFY THE LORD 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour 48 For HE HATH REGARDED THE LOW ESTATE OF HIS HANDMAIDEN for behold from henceforth ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED 49 For HE THAT IS MIGHTY HATH DONE TO ME GREAT THINGS and holy is his name. …52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats and EXALTED THEM OF LOW DEGREE]

LK 1:28 And the angel came in unto her and said Hail thou that art HIGHLY FAVOURED the LORD IS WITH THEE blessed art thou among women 29 … 30 And the angel said unto her Fear not MARY for THOU HAST FOUND FAVOUR WITH GOD [Hail, the angel salutes Mary as a dignitary, or as one of importance. He calls her, Highly favoured or “full of grace”, Mary was in a state of grace and the Lord was already with her before the angel came. Usually angels are shown reverence, by one falling on their face, but this time an angel shows reverence to a person.]

In the garden of Eden, Satan spoke only to Eve, who was created without sin. Eve spoke to Adam and gave him the apple. Had Adam, the head of the human race, not eaten the apple we would still be in the Garden of Eden. Adam was head and represented all humanity, his sin cause the lose of the indwelling life of God. It was thru Eve’s cooperation with Satan that sin entered the world. It is thru the new Eve, Mary, who was conceived without sin, who cooperated with God that salvation enters the world, thru Christ who is head and represents all humanity. Mary undid what Eve caused, Christ undid what Adam caused.

[John the Baptist, was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, sanctified, in the womb, therefore JOHN was BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. Adam lost the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for mankind when he sinned. Original sin is not an actual sin, but a lack of the life of God within, we are not born deserving eternal life, that which is born of flesh is flesh, we are not born with the Holy Spirit in us. That’s why we baptise infants, to restore supernatural life to the soul.]

Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, even FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB.

Lk1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elizabeth HEARD THE SALUTATION OF MARY, THE BABE LEAPED IN HER WOMB; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: [The same God who filled and sanctified John the Baptist in the womb filled and sanctified Mary at conception, with God nothing is impossible. The immaculate conception is not a great leap of faith at all. Those doctrines on Mary are defined because they reveal who Christ is. Mary a type of Eve, reveals Christ as new Adam. Mary as mother of God, reveals Christ is God made flesh. When you deny Mary as mother of God, you deny God became flesh. 2Jn1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge JESUS CHRIST AS COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Lk1:24 And after those days his wife **Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying, 25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men. 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

The soul of the precursor was not preserved immaculate at its union with the body, but was sanctified either shortly after conception from a previous state of sin, or through the presence of Jesus at the Visitation. Again it is remarked that a peculiar privilege was granted to the prophet Jeremiah and to St. John the Baptist. They were sanctified in their mother’s womb, because by their preaching they had a special share in the work of preparing the way for Christ. (Catholic Encyclopedia) newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm Move down to, The conception of John the Baptist.

 

[Roy5]

Would the Holy Spirit allow the Holocaust, World War II, the Inquisitions, the Reformation, and a million other such bloody events? Would the Holy Spirit bless those stories of mass murder in the Old Testament - e. g., Joshua ordered by God to murder every inhabitant of Jericho after those walls fell, Saul ordered by God to kill every remaining Amalekite? What about that wierd little tale found in I Kings 2:23 - Elisha calls down a curse in the name of the Lord and two she-bears maul 42 youth? Why? Because they teased poor Elisha because he was bald!

If you want to believe that the Holy Spirit has given total protection to the Bible or to the Church - fine. Go ahead. I personally find that such blanket and blind faith contradicts the very nature of God along with elementary morality and common sense. 

 God is love. It seems to me that this is in the Bible. How is that compatible with the horrendous genocide that this loving God commanded in the OT scriptures?

 

[jlhargus]

I don’t accept everything in scripture as sacrosanct,

because I have studied the Bible sufficiently to become convinced that certain pagan influences crept in before the gospels were written down. I tend to believe that as pagan beliefs influenced early Christianity, these doctrines quite naturally developed, the work of theologians

JL: Could you be specific about what you don’t hold as sacrosanct and what is pagan? Also how do you determine what is and is not sacrosanct and what is pagan in the gospels and Christianity? Is scripture in error were Christ promised to guide the apostoles into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13? Is scripture in error calling the Church a pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm3:15?

 

[jlhargus]

Would the Holy Spirit allow the Holocaust, World War II, the Inquisitions, the Reformation, and a million other such bloody events? Would the Holy Spirit bless those stories of mass murder in the Old Testament - e. g., Joshua ordered by God to murder every inhabitant of Jericho after those walls fell, Saul ordered by God to kill every remaining Amalekite? What about that wierd little tale found in I Kings 2:23 - Elisha calls down a curse in the name of the Lord and two she-bears maul 42 youth? Why? Because they teased poor Elisha because he was bald!

If you want to believe that the Holy Spirit has given total protection to the Bible or to the Church - fine. Go ahead. I personally find that such blanket and blind faith contradicts the very nature of God along with elementary morality and common sense.

God is love. It seems to me that this is in the Bible. How is that compatible with the horrendous genocide that this loving God commanded in the OT scriptures?

JL: A quick and simple answer. It is sin that caused those things man has free will. The Holy Spirit works thru those things to bring about the most good for man and salvation of souls.
How would you know the very nature of God without the Church and scripture?

 

[Good_Fella]

You think the Holy Spirit would allow myths in His Word?

It’s the private interpretation of the written word by individuals that creates myths. Martin Luther conceived the idea of being saved by faith alone and then appealed to Scripture to support his notion. But until then the Church taught salvation by faith and good works done in grace since apostolic time. The Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church bear testimony to an Apostolic Tradition which Scripture must be interpreted in light of. For the written word (Scripture) proceeds from the spoken word (Tradition) handed down to us. Luther and the reformers of his time deviated from traditional belief, and so they reinterpreted the written word in contravention of the spoken word to accommodate their preconceived notions. Moreover, they couldn’t agree with each other on many points they personally believed were contained in Scripture, although they commonly believed that the Holy Spirit was the principal divine author of the sacred texts. Naturally, the same Spirit couldn’t have been speaking to all of them, seeing how divided they were in their personal religious convictions.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Safia]

Would the Holy Spirit allow the Holocaust, World War II, the Inquisitions, the Reformation, and a million other such bloody events?

Forgive me for being uncharitable, but are you serious?

If the Holy Spirit forced humans to act in certain ways, perhaps not, but all of those events – most of them, at the very least – are directly the result of human evil, pride, and Satan’s work. God allows evil to occur, and He works his good through that evil; in order to maintain his gift to us, He chooses to suffer when we turn our backs on Him.

Would the Holy Spirit bless those stories of mass murder in the Old Testament - e. g., Joshua ordered by God to murder every inhabitant of Jericho after those walls fell, Saul ordered by God to kill every remaining Amalekite? What about that wierd little tale found in I Kings 2:23 - Elisha calls down a curse in the name of the Lord and two she-bears maul 42 youth? Why? Because they teased poor Elisha because he was bald!

It’s not worth it to have this discussion with you.

I’ll quote:

I dare say, you are definitely interpreting these incidents according to standards that are less the adequate. For God to take human life is NOT evil—as it is for us.

The Ten Commandments are commands by God to us, His creatures. But God is not one of His creatures; He’s God, the Creator of His creatures! So often we make the mistake of forgetting just who God is and begin to measure God by human standards. “Thou shalt not kill” applies to us; not to God. He kills off generations every day! He is the author of human life and has dominion over human life. He ALONE has the right to take human life—any time He so chooses. And it is always the right time!

“You alone are the Holy One. You alone are the Lord. You alone are the Most High” – from the Gloria.
(source)

This might help, too.

If you want to believe that the Holy Spirit has given total protection to the Bible or to the Church - fine. Go ahead. I personally find that such blanket and blind faith contradicts the very nature of God along with elementary morality and common sense.

I don’t quite see the logic. Where’s the contradiction?

The Holy Spirit “owes” humans nothing in terms of the actions they choose that take them away from God, but yes, as Scripture says explicitly, Christ promised that the Spirit would lead all those who chose Him and His Church into Truth, and that in this temporal life, we are guaranteed at least that.

God is love. It seems to me that this is in the Bible. How is that compatible with the horrendous genocide that this loving God commanded in the OT scriptures?

You know God is love only because of Scripture, and thus, unless you believe it all, you have no grounds for being Christian. Careful, careful.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Would the Holy Spirit allow the Holocaust, World War II, …?

Even though God allows an evil, He does not Will evil on us. Rather if anything can be said about God’s Will it’s that we remain faithful to Him through virtue in during difficult times. When an evil befalls us we are to look to Him for guidance and help, to overcome evil with virtue.

Would the Holy Spirit bless those stories of mass murder in the Old Testament - e. g., Joshua ordered by God to murder every inhabitant of Jericho after those walls fell, Saul ordered by God to kill every remaining Amalekite? What about that wierd little tale found in I Kings 2:23 - Elisha calls down a curse in the name of the Lord and two she-bears maul 42 youth? Why? Because they teased poor Elisha because he was bald!

If you want to believe that the Holy Spirit has given total protection to the Bible or to the Church - fine. Go ahead. I personally find that such blanket and blind faith contradicts the very nature of God along with elementary morality and common sense.

 God is love. It seems to me that this is in the Bible. How is that compatible with the horrendous genocide that this loving God commanded in the OT scriptures?

Sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the whole arc of the story and you have to see who things change (I don’t understand why God wanted that to happen or if it something He truly willed when Saul killed Amalekites) but there is a change from Joshua and Gideon to David and Peter (just to mention a few examples) and then finally Jesus Christ. Joshua and Gideon were warriors, David schemed for Uriahs death, Peter sliced off the ear of high priest’s servant, but when come to Jesus, He killed no one nor wished for their death nor harmed anyone with a weapon. I think there is a lesson there but you have to see the bigger picture.

 

[CopticChristian]

Forgive me for being uncharitable, but are you serious?
If the Holy Spirit forced humans to act in certain ways, perhaps not, but all of those events – most of them, at the very least – are directly the result of human evil, pride, and Satan’s work. God allows evil to occur, and He works his good through that evil; in order to maintain his gift to us, He chooses to suffer when we turn our backs on Him.

It’s not worth it to have this discussion with you.

I’ll quote:

This might help, too.

I don’t quite see the logic. Where’s the contradiction?

The Holy Spirit “owes” humans nothing in terms of the actions they choose that take them away from God, but yes, as Scripture says explicitly, Christ promised that the Spirit would lead all those who chose Him and His Church into Truth, and that in this temporal life, we are guaranteed at least that.

You know God is love only because of Scripture, and thus, unless you believe it all, you have no grounds for being Christian. Careful, careful.

I understand your point. If you were to be familiar with the paradigm of Roy you would understand that Roy travels to the beat of a different drum. Roy does not believe that Scripture is to be accepted and believed. Roy does not believe in structured religion. Roy believes in liberal thinking and to that extent some consideration should be given to the notion of what Roy may or may not know about the Holy Spirit and what the Holy Spirit does. Jesus said, I will send another paraclete. The Holy Spirit willl lead you into all truth. Roy’s understanding of the Holy Spirit is not based on Scripture or a teaching institution and in that regard he is serious.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I understand your point. If you were to be familiar with the paradigm of Roy you would understand that Roy travels to the beat of a different drum. Roy does not believe that Scripture is to be accepted and believed. Roy does not believe in structured religion. Roy believes in liberal thinking and to that extent some consideration should be given to the notion of what Roy may or may not know about the Holy Spirit and what the Holy Spirit does. Jesus said, I will send another paraclete. The Holy Spirit willl lead you into all truth. Roy’s understanding of the Holy Spirit is not based on Scripture or a teaching institution and in that regard he is serious.

Right, and I believe the issue comes more in to focus here. Its not very different than what happens at many major universities today which are non Catholic/Jesuit. I can identify with it leaving Catholic Schools for non-Catholic.

An open mind and the willingness to listen and learn is imperative. The process in fact never ends. Which we see daily here.

I understand when you say to me; “I’m not a horse”, if I told you that in fact you are a horse. But if I prove it to you mulitiple ways, that you are in fact a horse? I’d say you should buy saddle, because you are a horse. Believe it or not. And IMHO this seems to be the constant with Our Lady, and the Early Church, Oral and Written tradition. The Blessed Mother was not the focus of the Bible, however she is radiant in the Bible, and a perfect example of Virtue for any human being. Thus you have to seek further than Bible to find the Truth. When you believe that the Bible is the sole authority? Than you are subject to it, and more important, to someone’s teaching who appeared in the 15th, or after the fact. Fact is the Bible, is a result of the Catholic Church.

I learn all the time here, and I been in this church my entire life. The process is like playing an instrument, you become proficient at this. You never comprehend it all. School is never out. If we can all start from this point? Then we can proceed and learn. 2000- years of scholar’s and many on a Genius level leaves one with much reading and learning.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

General Announcement:
Please stay on topic

 

[jlhargus]

Would the Holy Spirit bless those stories of mass murder in the Old Testament - e. g., Joshua ordered by God to murder every inhabitant of Jericho after those walls fell, Saul ordered by God to kill every remaining Amalekite? What about that wierd little tale found in I Kings 2:23 - Elisha calls down a curse in the name of the Lord and two she-bears maul 42 youth? Why? Because they teased poor Elisha because he was bald!

God is love. It seems to me that this is in the Bible. How is that compatible with the horrendous genocide that this loving God commanded in the OT scriptures?

JL: Yes God is love and He mainifested His love thru those acts. God in His foreknowledge knew those people would never repent and reform. They would only continue to infect others with sin. For the innocent children it was a great mercy. Had they come of age they would have become irreformable and lost their souls. At least those innocent souls could be saved in death alone with those who would have been infected by their sins.

Song of Solomon4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

Ezek 44:1 Then THE MAN BROUGHT ME BACK TO THE OUTER GATE of the sanctuary, THE ONE FACING EAST, and IT WAS SHUT. 2 THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUTH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT.

This gate, Mary’s womb, is to remain shut. It must NOT BE OPENED, NO ONE may enter THROUGH IT. She is to remain EVER VIRGIN. NO ONE, no other children are to enter through it. Because The Lord God, Jesus, has entered through Mary the gate of heaven.

 

[Roy5]

jlh

** Hm! Here’s the ‘logic’ that some Christians abuse**. So, God knows the future and knew that these Jericho civilians and these Amalekites will never repent, etc. Obviously, if God knew this in advance, they didn’t have free will. They were ‘destined’ to remain evil. In fact, God must have determined in advance that they would not repent…How could he know in advance if they had a serious choice?

** So, in his ‘great love’, God determined that they will remain sinners**, makes no effort to change their hearts, then condemns them to a cruel death bye the sword at his command - among them plenty of women, children and even babies in the womb! And then we insist that abortion is a mortal sin.

 **Give me a breaK!** **Obviously, your God and my God are two quite different gods**. My God would NEVER condemn whole cities and whole tribes to such a slaughter. How can one dare call it love?

** I know, I know, We must not question God’s acts** and we can’t question scripture, either. No wonder more and more Christians fall away when so many of us justify such atrocities. We hail God’s love one minute, and then turn around and defend God-demanded outrageous murders that break the very Ten Commandments that the Lord gave us to follow. And what about the Sermon on the Mount? “Love your enemies. Do good to them that hate you…” etc.

** It seems to me that the Pope has been advocating the end of capital punishment.** He appears to be out of step with the Bible. Could that be? Oh, I know. (1) We must not question God's decisions. (2) The Bible as written was inspired by the Holy Spirit and must be believed in toto. (3) If there's a problem, the problem is with us and certainly not with the Biblical account of God's will.

** I suspect that Mary would have been as shocked** as anyone by the savagery in these scriptures that many Christians accept. How can one proclaim the mercy and love of Christ and the tender heart and enormous compassion of Mary and continue to declare deliberate genocide as the will and working of our righteous God?

 

[CopticChristian]

jlh

** Hm! Here’s the ‘logic’ that some Christians abuse**. So, God knows the future and knew that these Jericho civilians and these Amalekites will never repent, etc. Obviously, if God knew this in advance, they didn’t have free will. They were ‘destined’ to remain evil. In fact, God must have determined in advance that they would not repent…How could he know in advance if they had a serious choice?

** So, in his ‘great love’, God determined that they will remain sinners**, makes no effort to change their hearts, then condemns them to a cruel death bye the sword at his command - among them plenty of women, children and even babies in the womb! And then we insist that abortion is a mortal sin.

 **Give me a breaK!** **Obviously, your God and my God are two quite different gods**. My God would NEVER condemn whole cities and whole tribes to such a slaughter. How can one dare call it love?

** I know, I know, We must not question God’s acts** and we can’t question scripture, either. No wonder more and more Christians fall away when so many of us justify such atrocities. We hail God’s love one minute, and then turn around and defend God-demanded outrageous murders that break the very Ten Commandments that the Lord gave us to follow. And what about the Sermon on the Mount? “Love your enemies. Do good to them that hate you…” etc.

** It seems to me that the Pope has been advocating the end of capital punishment.** He appears to be out of step with the Bible. Could that be? Oh, I know. (1) We must not question God's decisions. (2) The Bible as written was inspired by the Holy Spirit and must be believed in toto. (3) If there's a problem, the problem is with us and certainly not with the Biblical account of God's will.

** I suspect that Mary would have been as shocked** as anyone by the savagery in these scriptures that many Christians accept. How can one proclaim the mercy and love of Christ and the tender heart and enormous compassion of Mary and continue to declare deliberate genocide as the will and working of our righteous God?

Roy,

You question mystery. I wish I had an explanation. Free Will is a mystery. You can of course be a Calvinist and then everything falls into the logic of the mind. There are those that are elect and those that are damned, all created by the loving God.

I agree that there are many that differ in their understanding of God. You appear to have a different concept than mine. It may be that you spend more time than I do thinking about this than I do and perhaps I should do as you do. I do not know.

You have concerns. You have highlighted your concerns. Your mind is wrestling with issues that I don’t wrestle with. I wish I could understand.

 

[jlhargus]

** Hm! Here’s the ‘logic’ that some Christians abuse**. So, God knows the future and knew that these Jericho civilians and these Amalekites will never repent, etc. Obviously, if God knew this in advance, they didn’t have free will. They were ‘destined’ to remain evil. In fact, God must have determined in advance that they would not repent…How could he know in advance if they had a serious choice?

JL: He simple foreknew what their choice would be. How does God knowing events in advance violate one’s free will? They chose their life style. God didn’t force a life style of sin on them. God simply foresaw what their life style CHOICES would be.

** So, in his ‘great love’, God determined that they will remain sinners**, makes no effort to change their hearts, then condemns them to a cruel death bye the sword at his command - among them plenty of women, children and even babies in the womb! And then we insist that abortion is a mortal sin.

JL: That’s your erroneous interpretaion. I would guess you see abortion as morally good. I will post my previous answer. God in His foreknowledge knew those people would never repent and reform. They would only continue to infect others with sin. For the innocent children it was a great mercy. Had they come of age they would have become irreformable and lost their souls. At least those innocent souls could be saved in death along with those who would have been infected by their sins.

God did not DETERMINE (force or predestine) in the sense you seem to imply. God simply foresaw they would NOT repent. Not even thru the witness of His people or prophets.

Give me a breaK! Obviously, your God and my God are two quite different gods. My God would NEVER condemn whole cities and whole tribes to such a slaughter. How can one dare call it love?

JL: [Rms8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.] My God is revealed in His Word, whether by Word or epistle and proclaimed by the pillar and ground of TRUTH the Church. From where do you get your knowledge of God?

** I know, I know, We must not question God’s acts** and we can’t question scripture, either. No wonder more and more Christians fall away when so many of us justify such atrocities. We hail God’s love one minute, and then turn around and defend God-demanded outrageous murders that break the very Ten Commandments that the Lord gave us to follow. And what about the Sermon on the Mount? “Love your enemies. Do good to them that hate you…” etc.

JL: If more and more Christians fall way it is because of their free will choice. You contradict yourself. You question Both God and scripture. Your god seems to be of your own imagination.

** It seems to me that the Pope has been advocating the end of capital punishment.** He appears to be out of step with the Bible. Could that be? Oh, I know. (1) We must not question God's decisions. (2) The Bible as written was inspired by the Holy Spirit and must be believed in toto. (3) If there's a problem, the problem is with us and certainly not with the Biblical account of God's will.

JL: No that could not be. Yes we do believe the Bible in toto. Tell me do you? If there’s a problem the problem is with your interpretation not with the bible or the Church.

** I suspect that Mary would have been as shocked** as anyone by the savagery in these scriptures that many Christians accept. How can one proclaim the mercy and love of Christ and the tender heart and enormous compassion of Mary and continue to declare deliberate genocide as the will and working of our righteous God?

JL: Mary along with many Israelites would have known the OT well and loved God.

I find some of your remarks to be blasphemous and offensive to all Christians. I suspect they are posted for no other reason than to offend and incite to anger. If you keep posting in this manner I will bring in to management’s attention and let them judge.

 

[Roy5]

jlhargus

 Explain to me logically how free will is not contradictory to the idea that God knew in advance that those Jericho residents, Amalekites and others would continue to be 'evil'. I'm not sure it was evil - to begin with - to resist invading armies which were slaughtering your people, destroying your cities and seizing your land. Yes, I know. We must never take issue with scripture or the Church.  Believe what we're taught and don't ask questions and rock the boat

 I am against abortion, by the way, except in extreme cases. I know one family with six children who used approved family planning based on a woman's cycle but the wife became pregnant. Her doctor warned her that another child would likely mean her death and that of the baby. She, a devout Catholic, felt obliged to have the baby (against the wishes of her husband and parents). She was sure God and her guardian angel would protect her. She and the baby died. In such a situation I would have allowed an exception and permitted an emergency abortion at an early stage to save the mother's life. Instead, she left behind six motherless and grieving children, a broken and bitter husband, and an angry and extended family that left Catholicism, now bitterly anti-Catholic. 

  Yes, I know. Absolutely no exceptions. I agree with Jesus: "He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone." 

  You threaten to report me. Go ahead. I probably spend too much time here on CAF trying to present a different perspective. I'm sure that some posters become incensed, sincerely convinced that their way is the only way. but so be it. I guess I've been brainwashed by our great democracy into believing that an honest interchange of ideas is a positive thing. Fortunately, the large majority of Catholics I know, including other family members, are reasonable and are happy to have open discussion without shutting down minority and/or dissenting viewpoints. They stimulate thinking and instructive dialogue. 

  God bless them, and God bless you, too. I resist saying that, but mean it. God bless people of every creed, color, culture and country. Each one of us is precious in the eyes of our one Lord and Creator, and it's important that we learn to demontrate Christian love and mutual respect and appreciation.

 

[Good_Fella]

Are Marian dogmas wildly unbiblical?

 

[CopticChristian]

jlhargus

 Explain to me logically how free will is not contradictory to the idea that God knew in advance that those Jericho residents, Amalekites and others would continue to be 'evil'. I'm not sure it was evil - to begin with - to resist invading armies which were slaughtering your people, destroying your cities and seizing your land. Yes, I know. We must never take issue with scripture or the Church.  Believe what we're taught and don't ask questions and rock the boat

 I am against abortion, by the way, except in extreme cases. I know one family with six children who used approved family planning based on a woman's cycle but the wife became pregnant. Her doctor warned her that another child would likely mean her death and that of the baby. She, a devout Catholic, felt obliged to have the baby (against the wishes of her husband and parents). She was sure God and her guardian angel would protect her. She and the baby died. In such a situation I would have allowed an exception and permitted an emergency abortion at an early stage to save the mother's life. Instead, she left behind six motherless and grieving children, a broken and bitter husband, and an angry and extended family that left Catholicism, now bitterly anti-Catholic. 

  Yes, I know. Absolutely no exceptions. I agree with Jesus: "He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone." 

  You threaten to report me. Go ahead. I probably spend too much time here on CAF trying to present a different perspective. I'm sure that some posters become incensed, sincerely convinced that their way is the only way. but so be it. I guess I've been brainwashed by our great democracy into believing that an honest interchange of ideas is a positive thing. Fortunately, the large majority of Catholics I know, including other family members, are reasonable and are happy to have open discussion without shutting down minority and/or dissenting viewpoints. **They stimulate thinking and instructive dialogue.** 

  God bless them, and God bless you, too. I resist saying that, but mean it. God bless people of every creed, color, culture and country. Each one of us is precious in the eyes of our one Lord and Creator, and it's important that we learn to demontrate Christian love and mutual respect and appreciation.

Roy,

You do not find me stimulating?:bighanky:

 

[GaryTaylor]

JL: He simple foreknew what their choice would be. How does God knowing events in advance violate one’s free will? They chose their life style. God didn’t force a life style of sin on them. God simply foresaw what their life style CHOICES would be.
JL: That’s your erroneous interpretaion. I would guess you see abortion as morally good. I will post my previous answer. God in His foreknowledge knew those people would never repent and reform. They would only continue to infect others with sin. For the innocent children it was a great mercy. Had they come of age they would have become irreformable and lost their souls. At least those innocent souls could be saved in death along with those who would have been infected by their sins.

God did not DETERMINE (force or predestine) in the sense you seem to imply. God simply foresaw they would NOT repent. Not even thru the witness of His people or prophets.
JL: [Rms8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.] My God is revealed in His Word, whether by Word or epistle and proclaimed by the pillar and ground of TRUTH the Church. From where do you get your knowledge of God?

JL: If more and more Christians fall way it is because of their free will choice. You contradict yourself. You question Both God and scripture. Your god seems to be of your own imagination.

JL: No that could not be. Yes we do believe the Bible in toto. Tell me do you? If there’s a problem the problem is with your interpretation not with the bible or the Church.

JL: Mary along with many Israelites would have known the OT well and loved God.

I find some of your remarks to be blasphemous and offensive to all Christians. I suspect they are posted for no other reason than to offend and incite to anger. If you keep posting in this manner I will bring in to management’s attention and let them judge.

“I AM” means God is in the immediate moment all the time. So He knows the past, present, and future always, thus He knows yours and my judgement already, and already see’s you in the Grave. There is no mystery here.

The Free-Will is a option that the Lord will not remove and has existed since time existed. If it did not exist then all would simply be prefect robots. Look at the Cross or at Marys Annunciation. Perfect example’s of Free-Will.

However to get back to Our Lady. She would have known the OT for sure since the NT became a result of Her “Free-Will”. Even through the trials of the last three years in Christs life, no-where does she condemn Her own people. There’s a bigger picture focused on that She see’s as do others in these moments. Obviously there are those who see nothing at all in these moments but the immediate chaos.

In this sense it no different than today. Never are we not instructed as to the right direction. It simply isn’t a truth. At every moment and at every thought you make a Free-Will choice. In the end those free-will choices will seal your fate. But you have that choice in every moment. So to you have that choice to see Our Lady as God see’s Her correctly. I understand this is not easy.

So then how important is the Mother of God today? I’d say so important that we could state for sure, this is the period in “time” God gave man to make a choice in regards to His Mother.

The Mother of God didn’t appear on top of the Coptic Church and Bless it for no reason. Perhaps that Blessing is the known to the result of the santification of the Blood being spilled today. What we know for sure is Her last words to the seers. “In the End my Immaculate Heart will Triumph”

Your living in the period now to witness this happen. If one can’t see the forest from above the trees? Its nothing new in history. It doesn’t change the truth, or the facts or the message’s given to mankind. Just as that day Christ died on that Cross, so to it is today. Some just do not understand they play an active role in the time frame of time they live in.

Mary is the Mother of God, and in no way, shape or form after completing Her life as She did. would He (GOD) not hold Her in the Highest regard, just as all the Apostolic Churchs claim. In that sense, the Catholic Church has spoken in high regards in this area to the astonishment of many? This is only because the Lord has continued to send seers to continue to confirm Gods message. So to they have continued to search the Bible and the centurys to confirm Truth. They have confirmed no new truth, only those which have always existed and always will. There is no new truth, no contradiction, only much to be learned and accepted or rejected by your Free-Will.

What new have we come upon that in truth was not here from the begining? The CC did not invent nothing new. Surely by now that folly is put to rest.

If you cannot see it? Perhaps its no different than that day on the Cross that so many also did not see they stood in the presence of God. So too then this is not uncommon. Judas broke bread and was Blessed with being in the presence of God and hearing His teaching in person? And look what resulted through his Free-Will and perhaps by a simple thought in error which sealed his fate, and erupted in more compounded thoughts and errors? Could he not have done exactly as the Thief did on the Cross with Christ? Without a doubt he had been given a period of Mercy, so to all here today are given that period of Mercy.

jlhargus, I’m simply adding to your comment, not commenting on your comment.

Here perhaps we can get on track.

Peace

 

[Good_Fella]

“I AM” means God is in the immediate moment all the time. So He knows the past, present, and future always, thus He knows yours and my judgement already, and already see’s you in the Grave. There is no mystery here.

The Free-Will is a option that the Lord will not remove and has existed since time existed. If it did not exist then all would simply be prefect robots. Look at the Cross or at Marys Annunciation. Perfect example’s of Free-Will.

However to get back to Our Lady. She would have known the OT for sure since the NT became a result of Her “Free-Will”. Even through the trials of the last three years in Christs life, no-where does she condemn Her own people. There’s a bigger picture focused on that She see’s as do others in these moments. Obviously there are those who see nothing at all in these moments but the immediate chaos.

In this sense it no different than today. Never are we not instructed as to the right direction. It simply isn’t a truth. At every moment and at every thought you make a Free-Will choice. In the end those free-will choices will seal your fate. But you have that choice in every moment. So to you have that choice to see Our Lady as God see’s Her correctly. I understand this is not easy.

So then how important is the Mother of God today? I’d say so important that we could state for sure, this is the period in “time” God gave man to make a choice in regards to His Mother.

The Mother of God didn’t appear on top of the Coptic Church and Bless it for no reason. Perhaps that Blessing is the known to the result of the santification of the Blood being spilled today. What we know for sure is Her last words to the seers. “In the End my Immaculate Heart will Triumph”

Your living in the period now to witness this happen. If one can’t see the forest from above the trees? Its nothing new in history. It doesn’t change the truth, or the facts or the message’s given to mankind. Just as that day Christ died on that Cross, so to it is today. Some just do not understand they play an active role in the time frame of time they live in.

Mary is the Mother of God, and in no way, shape or form after completing Her life as She did. would He (GOD) not hold Her in the Highest regard, just as all the Apostolic Churchs claim. In that sense, the Catholic Church has spoken in high regards in this area to the astonishment of many? This is only because the Lord has continued to send seers to continue to confirm Gods message. So to they have continued to search the Bible and the centurys to confirm Truth. They have confirmed no new truth, only those which have always existed and always will. There is no new truth, no contradiction, only much to be learned and accepted or rejected by your Free-Will.

What new have we come upon that in truth was not here from the begining? The CC did not invent nothing new. Surely by now that folly is put to rest.

If you cannot see it? Perhaps its no different than that day on the Cross that so many also did not see they stood in the presence of God. So too then this is not uncommon. Judas broke bread and was Blessed with being in the presence of God and hearing His teaching in person? And look what resulted through his Free-Will and perhaps by a simple thought in error which sealed his fate, and erupted in more compounded thoughts and errors? Could he not have done exactly as the Thief did on the Cross with Christ? Without a doubt he had been given a period of Mercy, so to all here today are given that period of Mercy.

jlhargus, I’m simply adding to your comment, not commenting on your comment.

**Here perhaps we can get on track. **

Peace