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rinnie
Guest
Then anotherwards they are indeed Christians, because they believe Christ is our Lord right?
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meltzerboy
New member
If that is the main stipulation for being considered Christian, then yes.
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rinnie
Guest
Believing and accepting him of course as our Lord and Savior. Then I agree that are indeed Christians.
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dzheremi
Guest
But it’s not. Note the examples of Jesus silencing the demons He drove out of the possessed when they said that He was the Christ, as in Luke 4:33-35. The truth, coming from the wrong source, is profaned and blasphemed. Messianic Jews are certainly the wrong source from which to learn Christianity. Judaizing is, as we have already discussed in this thread, a heresy. One does not learn the truth from heretics, even if they are not completely wrong in all things.
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rinnie
Guest
I am a little confused here. If a Messianic Jew today is someone who accepts Christ as our God, and forgive me but who was more Jewish then the Apostles?
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mercytruth
Guest
I think it is a bit judgmental to assume that all Jewish Christians, or Christians who are celebrating the Jewish holy days and worship liturgies are ‘judaizing’ (as you are putting it.)
Paul himself said, that to the Jews he was a Jew, to the Greeks he was a Greek. Our Christian faith is not something that is measured so much by our outward liturgies, as much as our outward keeping of the moral teachings of Jesus Christ, much of which is an extension of the law of Moses.
God’s peace
micah
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dzheremi
Guest
It’s not my opinion, though. It’s the opinion of the apostles and the fathers. Nobody has the right to dissent from the apostolic faith they have been given and preserved. I am already in communion with the most (outwardly) ‘Jewish’ of apostolic Christian churches, that of the Ethiopians, and they confirm this truth, too. Judaizing is a heresy, and we do not accept the turning back to those customs which our Fathers have already determined in council are not necessary in order to be Christian. If someone is a Christian of Jewish background, fine. There have obviously been many of those throughout our history, as there also are today (see, for instance, Fr. James Bernstein’s book “Surprised by Christ”). The group we are talking about in this thread is not that. They are Judaizing heretics, again, not according to my own view, but according to the apostles and the fathers themselves.
Read that same St. Paul’s epistle to the Galatians. He also withstood St. Peter to his face over the latter’s temporary acceptance of the Judaizing practices (Galatians 2:11-13). The problem is not in being a Jew or not being a Jew. That is a matter of birth and rearing. The problem is in Judaizing, that is, the belief that the Church should include more Jewish practice than was already incorporated into the Church by the fathers. Judaism is not Christianity. We don’t need this additional veneer of Jewishness, particularly from confused Evangelical Christians who are, by vast majority, not even the tiniest bit Jewish.
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rinnie
Guest
You make no sense to me. The truth comming from the wrong source? How does where truth comes from make it profaned and blasphemed?
Is not truth just that truth?
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dzheremi
Guest
Rinnie,
No less a source than St. Cyril of Alexandria, in his commentary on Luke 12, explains it in this manner:
“He (Christ) would not permit the unclean demons to confess Him. It was not right for them to usurp the glory of the apostolic office or to talk of the mystery of Christ with polluted tongues. Yes, nothing they say is true. Let no one trust them. Light cannot be recognized with the help of darkness…” (as quoted in Daniel Fanous’ Taught By God: Making Sense of the Difficult Sayings of Jesus, Orthodox Research Institute, 2010; pg.136, italics in original)
No less a source than St. Cyril of Alexandria, in his commentary on Luke 12, explains it in this manner:
“He (Christ) would not permit the unclean demons to confess Him. It was not right for them to usurp the glory of the apostolic office or to talk of the mystery of Christ with polluted tongues. Yes, nothing they say is true. Let no one trust them. Light cannot be recognized with the help of darkness…” (as quoted in Daniel Fanous’ Taught By God: Making Sense of the Difficult Sayings of Jesus, Orthodox Research Institute, 2010; pg.136, italics in original)
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rinnie
Guest
But surely this is not who we are talking about. A Jew who confess Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior is not an unclean demon.
Jesus himself tells us many Jews will not see the truth until he comes again in glory. But ifthey are truly Gods people they will see it and confess the truth.
But regardless of those who cannot see it yet, I am still confused at accepting the truth they do teach. Even our Pope does that. Not only of Jews but of All faiths.
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YKohen
Guest
Interesting. Of course we see it differently.
Throughout history, there was a conflict between Judah and Joseph over who would be king and rule; beginning from the story of Joseph himself all the way through the split in the kingdom after Solomon and through to the exile of the 10 tribes.
Judah was the spiritual one; established the yeshivot, etc. This is why Jerusalem is right next to his portion.
Joseph was the worldly one- in Egypt, etc. The kingdom of Israel under his rule was based in Shchem (today called “Nablus” by many), which was always a center of trade, and was in the portion of Ephraim.
To us, Ezekiel 37’s joining of the two is the messianic era when there will no longer be rivalry over who rules and no longer a tension between the spiritual and the physical. They will naturally co-exist and we will enjoy both together:
Mica 4
- And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
- And many nations shall go, and they shall say, “Come, let us go up to the Lord’s mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths,” for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
- And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.
- And they shall dwell each man under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them move, for the mouth of the Lord of Hosts has spoken.
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CatholicofAgora
Guest
Actually, very few of them are actually from semitic origin. They are generally Christians of an evangelical sort who remain vital to the Law of Moses. Which is heresy, because st. Paul and Peter taught against circumcision, which is how one gains entry into the Mosaic covenant.Okay yeah I know they’re Jews, but if they believe Jesus is messiah and the son of God…wouldn’t they be Christians? I don’t know much about messianic Jews though…soo…I may not have the facts right
Also do they celebrate Christmas? Hanukkah?..Both?
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dzheremi
Guest
With due respect, I think you’re missing my point. The question you had asked was, essentially, how could the source of the truth pervert that truth? Isn’t truth just truth, and that’s that? Well, no…that’s not the case. The source most definitely does matter, as St. Cyril tells us, because those who are not fit to speak it render it a lie by their own untrustworthiness. You’re right that Messianic Jews are not demons, but they are certainly not the ones from whom we are to learn Christianity, being heretics as they are…and there are of course those apostolic and patristic sources which would condemn them on that account (which I also do, as I believe in the Apostles and the Fathers, not modern confused Evangelicals). In fact, St. Paul himself, in his first epistle to Timothy, calls coming false teachings (heresies) “the doctrines of demons” explicitly (1 Timothy 4:1). So we may be splitting hairs here to no good effect. Those who advance the doctrines of demons, such as the Messianic Jews and other modern Judaizers, may not be demons themselves, but if they are doing the devil’s job…But surely this is not who we are talking about. A Jew who confess Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior is not an unclean demon.
Jesus himself tells us many Jews will not see the truth until he comes again in glory. But ifthey are truly Gods people they will see it and confess the truth.
But regardless of those who cannot see it yet, I am still confused at accepting the truth they do teach. Even our Pope does that. Not only of Jews but of All faiths.
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mercytruth
Guest
The interesting aspect of the prophets and the prophesies of the Tanakh is that one can interpret them in a multi-faceted way.
I would not refute your understanding of the prophet Micah. Sometimes all of us need to open our eyes to a different way of seeing and interpreting the inscrutable.
I see the compassion that G-d is pouring out on various ‘Christian’ communities towards practicing Jews as a preparation and an indication of what is to come…perhaps soon.
shalom
micah
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rinnie
Guest
See I missed that part. I saw where they only said circumcision was not necessary for the gentiles because Baptism replaced it. But I did not see where it was wrong to do so. The Church sees nothing wrong with it, as long as it, but acknowledges it does not grant Salvation, only Baptism does.
With that said, if a Jew is Christian he is certainly Baptised in the name of the Trinity is he not?
I am not accusing only asking, I am quite confused on this.
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rinnie
Guest
See this is where I stated, I am very confused here. While I totally agree they are not the source where we learn our Christianity, are they not a good source to learn our Jewish roots though?With due respect, I think you’re missing my point. The question you had asked was, essentially, how could the source of the truth pervert that truth? Isn’t truth just truth, and that’s that? Well, no…that’s not the case. The source most definitely does matter, as St. Cyril tells us, because those who are not fit to speak it render it a lie by their own untrustworthiness. You’re right that Messianic Jews are not demons, but they are certainly not the ones from whom we are to learn Christianity, being heretics as they are…and there are of course those apostolic and patristic sources which would condemn them on that account (which I also do, as I believe in the Apostles and the Fathers, not modern confused Evangelicals). In fact, St. Paul himself, in his first epistle to Timothy, calls coming false teachings (heresies) “the doctrines of demons” explicitly (1 Timothy 4:1). So we may be splitting hairs here to no good effect. Those who advance the doctrines of demons, such as the Messianic Jews and other modern Judaizers, may not be demons themselves, but if they are doing the devil’s job…
And where I am totally lost is in this, If they confess Jesus as God, convert to the Christian faith, are Baptised Christian’s, can they not do both, have their Jewish traditions to a point, but still glorify Christ as Lord.
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rinnie
Guest
Hold on here a moment. I may stand to be corrected here.
I am starting to see the problem. Correct me if I am wrong.
Would it be correct to say a Messianic Jew is indeed a Christian, who does indeed accept Christ as our Lord and Savior, but…
does not accept the true teaching’s of the Catholic Church.
Anotherwards forgive the phrase but a Messianic Jew Christian Protestant?
I am starting to see the problem. Correct me if I am wrong.
Would it be correct to say a Messianic Jew is indeed a Christian, who does indeed accept Christ as our Lord and Savior, but…
does not accept the true teaching’s of the Catholic Church.
Anotherwards forgive the phrase but a Messianic Jew Christian Protestant?
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dzheremi
Guest
No. The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15), and has within her all knowledge that profits us to know as Christians. Of course, there are good uses for non-Christian literatures by properly disposed Christians (see St. Basil’s treatise on that), but nowhere can we find the opinion that Judaizers will teach us anything worthwhile about our roots. Christ Jesus Himself was Jew, as were all of His apostles, and those apostles, having been taught the truth by He Who is truth, rejected the Judaizers and their ways as hypocrisy and faithlessness. So we would do better to follow those Jews who taught the true faith without corruption, the apostles. They are our roots, not those who apostasized in favor of keeping the law of Moses long past when our Fathers had ruled on that (again, Jerusalem in AD 50…the matter was settled so long ago).
The problem with this is that the point to which we have preserved Jewish practice (e.g., the use of incense, the chanting of scripture, canonical hours of prayer, etc.) is already codified within the Church herself. So those who insist on making us more Jewish than that are wrong, and the weight of Christian history and the inviolable apostolic Christian faith is against them.
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mercytruth
Guest
I think we have a different concept of Judaizing. As I understand the apostle Paul, he was teaching that those who justify themselves through the keeping of the Torah within the Christian community are called Judaizers. The apostle Paul made it very clear that is through the ongoing conversion through Jesus Christ that we become justified before God.
Messianic Jews and non-Jews are not saying that they are justified before God through the keeping of the Torah, they do not deny the justification that comes throught their ongoing conversion toward God through Y’shuah. They are merely keeping some of the Jewish liturgy and feast days within the context of Jesus Christ fulfilling them. We keep Passover, the Resurrection, Pentecost in fulfillment of Jewish feast days. They do too, but with more of ‘Jewish’ understanding within the context of Jesus Christ being the fulfillment.
The Constitutions of the Apostles give us examples of such. The early church even kept both the Sabbath and Sunday as days of worship.
Of course they are not ‘catholic’. I also know that Jesus said that we are not to offend one of these ‘little ones of faith’ that are outside the fold… lest something worse than a millstone be tied around our necks.
God’s peace
micah
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dzheremi
Guest
And such is the Judiazing practice. Again, the problem is not in being Jews, but in supposing or behaving as though the Church needs more Jewish practice and ritual than was already incorporated in the days of the Apostles. This is wrong, as we already have all that the Fathers decided we needed, so it is not the place of anyone (certainly not those who are outside of the Church, such as the “Messianic Jews”) to try to pretend as though the council of Jerusalem doesn’t apply to them, if they are going to be called “Christians” (methinks this is why they prefer to be called “Jews”; what a pity for them that actual Jews don’t accept them either, then). As it is, we already keep the earliest Christian liturgy (that of St. James, Bishop of Jerusalem, which is the common liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church, which not coincidentally also keeps the language of Christ). No need for this extra Jewish stuff that is outside of our faith and its tradition.
Exactly. Fulfillment being the key word. I don’t know what you mean when you write ‘We keep passover’, but Paskha (Easter), the holiest of days, certainly is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, as read by our teachers and masters the Fathers.
More Jewish than the very Jewish apostles who ruled against the keeping of Jewish practices for the Christian converts? I don’t think so.
As the Ethiopians still do (they very nearly keep Kashrut, as well, as I understand it). What’s your point? They don’t do so as “Messianic Jews”, but as Christians. That is within Christian tradition.
Whosoever causes the little ones to stumble, indeed…such as by teaching heresy in the place of the true faith. That is not an option.
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