Are Messianic Jews Christian?

[mercytruth]

And such is the Judiazing practice. Again, the problem is not in being Jews, but in supposing or behaving as though the Church needs more Jewish practice and ritual than was already incorporated in the days of the Apostles. This is wrong, as we already have all that the Fathers decided we needed, so it is not the place of anyone (certainly not those who are outside of the Church, such as the “Messianic Jews”) to try to pretend as though the council of Jerusalem doesn’t apply to them, if they are going to be called “Christians” (methinks this is why they prefer to be called “Jews”; what a pity for them that actual Jews don’t accept them either, then). As it is, we already keep the earliest Christian liturgy (that of St. James, Bishop of Jerusalem, which is the common liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church, which not coincidentally also keeps the language of Christ). No need for this extra Jewish stuff that is outside of our faith and its tradition.

Exactly. Fulfillment being the key word. I don’t know what you mean when you write ‘We keep passover’, but Paskha (Easter), the holiest of days, certainly is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, as read by our teachers and masters the Fathers.

More Jewish than the very Jewish apostles who ruled against the keeping of Jewish practices for the Christian converts? I don’t think so.

As the Ethiopians still do (they very nearly keep Kashrut, as well, as I understand it). What’s your point? They don’t do so as “Messianic Jews”, but as Christians. That is within Christian tradition.

Whosoever causes the little ones to stumble, indeed…such as by teaching heresy in the place of the true faith. That is not an option.

I think we can presume that the apostolic church of Jerusalem was also entering the Temple to pray, and to observe the holy days.

I will defend these brothers and sisters in my Lord all the way to my grave. Those of whom I have been acquainted were very instrumental in my own emotional, psychological and spiritual healing through their intercessions of prayer and worship of the Lord our God
through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

They do not judge other denominations for not observing the holy days as they do.

t’s obvious we have an irreconciable viewpoint, and we are not going to persuade each other either way.

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[LEMAITRE]

Wow, this is news to me! So this “Messianic Jew” thing does not even originate with actual Jewish people??? That shocks me!! I had NO idea!!!

This movement started in the late 60’s by Evangelical christians. It is a form of syncretism although Im not sure whether the Catholic Church would consider it to be that strictly defined considering that it blends aspects of Judaism which is our elder brother in faith.

Maybe a more senior forum member could clarify.

I have always thought of syncretism as that practiced by the Freemasons who swear an oath on Bibles, Qurans, Hindu texts etc.

 

[mercytruth]

This movement started in the late 60’s by Evangelical christians. It is a form of syncretism although Im not sure whether the Catholic Church would consider it to be that strictly defined considering that it blends aspects of Judaism which is our elder brother in faith.

Maybe a more senior forum member could clarify.

I have always thought of syncretism as that practiced by the Freemasons who swear an oath on Bibles, Qurans, Hindu texts etc.

Actually it predates the 60’s and usually has been initated by biblical oriented Jews who have converted to the Christian faith.

**The early Hebrew Christians were mainly “fundamentalists” (the term comes from The Fundamentals , a series of books released from 1910-1915 in twelve volumes, detailing the absolute veracity of the Bible), who held a pro-Jewish and pro-Zionist position.7 In the late 1800s and early 1900s, there were several attempts at starting Hebrew Christian congregations, including in New York City in 1895, Toronto in 1917, Chicago in 1931, and Los Angeles in the 1930s.8 John Zacker, a Russian Jew, formed the Hebrew Christian Synagogue of Philadelphia, recognized as “the first distinct Jewish Christian house of worship in the United States;” it opened on February 25, 1922. 9

On May 22, 1901, the Boston Conference of the Messianic Council met, organized by Mark Levy, an English Jew, to push his idea to form an alliance in America of Jewish believers. This conference planned another conference to organize a Hebrew Christian Alliance of America (HCAA), which took place on July 28-30, 190310 (Louis Meyer, the corresponding secretary of this organizing conference, helped edit The Fundamentals ).11 **

mcu.edu/papers/mess_jud.htm

God’s peace

micah

 

[LEMAITRE]

Actually it predates the 60’s and usually has been initated by biblical oriented Jews who have converted to the Christian faith.

**The early Hebrew Christians were mainly “fundamentalists” (the term comes from The Fundamentals , a series of books released from 1910-1915 in twelve volumes, detailing the absolute veracity of the Bible), who held a pro-Jewish and pro-Zionist position.7 In the late 1800s and early 1900s, there were several attempts at starting Hebrew Christian congregations, including in New York City in 1895, Toronto in 1917, Chicago in 1931, and Los Angeles in the 1930s.8 John Zacker, a Russian Jew, formed the Hebrew Christian Synagogue of Philadelphia, recognized as “the first distinct Jewish Christian house of worship in the United States;” it opened on February 25, 1922. 9

On May 22, 1901, the Boston Conference of the Messianic Council met, organized by Mark Levy, an English Jew, to push his idea to form an alliance in America of Jewish believers. This conference planned another conference to organize a Hebrew Christian Alliance of America (HCAA), which took place on July 28-30, 190310 (Louis Meyer, the corresponding secretary of this organizing conference, helped edit The Fundamentals ).11 **

mcu.edu/papers/mess_jud.htm

God’s peace

micah

We are discussing Messianic Jews which are a distinct separate group from other 'jewish christian groups such as Jews for Jesus. They started in the 60’s but claim that they actually started 2000years ago with Jesus and the Apostles who were all practicing Jews.

 

[dzheremi]

I think we can presume that the apostolic church of Jerusalem was also entering the Temple to pray, and to observe the holy days.

Until they were thrown out for preaching Christ, yes.

They do not judge other denominations for not observing the holy days as they do.

You do not understand. It is not about their power to judge (as though their judgments would change the apostolic faith anyway), but about the fact that the Apostles and the Fathers have already pronounced their judgment upon those who would incorporate more Jewish practices than the Church has already embraced. This is why I started my posts in this thread by reminding everyone that the position of the Judaizers was already settled in AD 50, as recorded in the Holy Bible itself. So the modern rebirth of this particular heresy via the “Messianic Jews” is of no consequence for the apostolic faith, as we have already dealt with this kind of behavior so many years ago. It’s done. They’re not Christians, but heretics.

t’s obvious we have an irreconciable viewpoint, and we are not going to persuade each other either way.

This is good. I am not in the arguing business. The apostolic faith is what it is regardless of what you or I accept of it. But should we reject any of it, such as by adhering to Jewish ritual that was foreign to our fathers, who are our true roots, then we are self-condemned, so there is no need to argue anyway. Sources as early as Apollinaris Caludius and Melito of Sardis (both 2nd century AD, both recognized as saints by the Roman Catholic Church) both write of Christian non-observance of Passover, for instance, and Victor I, Bishop of Rome during the late 2nd century, actually excommunicated those who kept the Passover on 14 Nisan rather than switching it over to a Sunday celebration of the Resurrection, as has been common to the Church ever since. Those who would go back to some pathetic reconstruction of the Jewish law and custom (which satisfies neither Jews nor Christians) in a misguided attempt to rediscover their roots (which are, again, found in the Jewish apostles who spoke against the Judaizing heresy, not those who advanced such blasphemy) are, quite frankly, wrong. Our Fathers anathematized such people (read some of the sermons of St. John Chrysostom on that sometime). We should too, and in those churches that keep the apostolic faith, we do.

 

[504Katrin]

At this point I should maybe better confess that I don’t undertand what you’re talking about when you talk about “fullfillment”. Is this a bad thing that I don’t understand this? Am I as a Catholic supposed to understand this? What am I missing?

 

[AbideWithMe]

The Sephardic Jews were not among the Spaniards who conquered Mexico. Think about it logically: Having been expelled from Spain in 1492 by the Alhambra Decree, most fled to the Maghreb/N. Africa, as well as Istanbul, Sarajevo, and Salonica. Why the heck would the Spanish crown trust as their representatives in the new world those they had quite unceremoniously kicked out of the country some years earlier, thinking them to be traitors? The Spanish conquest of the Aztec empire begin in 1519, long after all the Jews would’ve have left Spain or been forcibly converted. In fact, the Spanish didn’t even first settle in the Americas until 1510 (at Castilla de Oro). They didn’t even discover the mainland until 1498 (before that they were hanging around in the Islands: Cuba, Puerto Rico, etc).

Sounds like some people are strainin’ to do some explainin’. Judios falsos y su pobre porqueria. They give Sephardic people a bad name, and I’m not even one of them, so I can only imagine how real Jews must feel!

Actually, a number of Sephardic Jews who had recently converted to Catholicism-- likely to avoid expulsion----did sail with Columbus. Luis de Torres, Columbus’ interpreter, was one well known Converso. Wikipedia has a decent article on him, but I don’t know if this link from my mobile device will work for most people: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_de_Torres

Here’s an article from Catholic News Service about people in Mexico and the southwest US who have had DNA testing done that seems to indicate some have the Cohanim marker: catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0404399.htm “Hispanics Discovering Their Jewish Roots From Colonial Spain.”

Fr. William Sanchez is one such Catholic who believes—partly based on testing for the Cohanim marker—that he is descended from crypto-Jews Conversos who fled to the New World.

Who knows? It doesn’t seem unlikely that some Conversos came to Mexico hoping for greater freedom and less oversight by the Inquisition. History does show that some parts of Latin America such as Argentina and Brazil had sizable Sephardic Jewish populations already in the 16th century, even before Ashkenazic Jews arrived.

 

[AbideWithMe]

—Then, there’s passages such as Acts 21:17-25: "When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James , and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: ‘You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the Law. They have been informed that you teach all Jews who live among the gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites, and pay their expenses, so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the Law. As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.’ "

Dzheremi—

Here is Acts 21 which I included in a post yesterday. I added verse 25 which affirms the Council of Jerusalem’s decision regarding Gentile converts.

Right before that, however, it makes clear that James, the elders of Jerusalem, and Paul, as Jews all were “living in obedience to the law” even after the Council of Jerusalem.

If that’s what Paul the Apostle and James the Bishop of Jerusalem did, why was it changed by later Church Fathers?

Why were later Jewish Christians discouraged from doing as Paul and James did?

If the Apostolic Faith is being passed on, shouldn’t the example of the early mainstream Jewish Apostles like Paul and James the Bishop be allowed for later Jewish Christians?

 

[dzheremi]

Actually, a number of Sephardic Jews who had recently converted to Catholicism-- likely to avoid expulsion----did sail with Columbus. Luis de Torres, Columbus’ interpreter, was one well known Converso. Wikipedia has a decent article on him, but I don’t know if this link from my mobile device will work for most people: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_de_Torres

This was bad phrasing on my part. I meant to say that the Jews were not Spanish conquerors (in the sense that we cannot say that conquering of Mexico would’ve created a lineage of Aztec Jews such that the Mexicans the other poster was talking about would like us to believe, as the conquest was first and foremost a Catholic project). One is reminded, for instance, of the argument of some of our Muslim posters who argued that there were likely (crypto-) Muslims among the Spanish who sailed with Columbus, and hence “Muslims discovered America”. I didn’t buy that, and I don’t buy this. Both of these fantasies are a reaction against the reality of the situation: That their ancestors were mostly forcibly converted to Catholicism in this period, and what vestiges do remain of the pre-Catholic religion of the area definitely point to Paganism, not Judaism.

Fr. William Sanchez is one such Catholic who believes—partly based on testing for the Cohanim marker—that he is descended from crypto-Jews Conversos who fled to the New World.

And I am one Orthodox who reject Jewishness as a cohesive ethnicity, especially among converts, which is what any of the descendents of these people would have to be, since they’re all Catholics now, and have been for hundreds of years. Or do we all get to claim to be Jews, since likely at some point many of us came from Jews (since at one point all Christians were essentially heretical Jews)? My grandfather came from Portugal…there were probably some Jews there, hundreds of years before he came to America…where’s my aliyah!? If that sounds stupid to you (and it should), maybe you’ll understand why I don’t care what Fr. William Sanchez thinks about a DNA test.

 

[dzheremi]

Dzheremi—

Here is Acts 21 which I included in a post yesterday. I added verse 25 which affirms the Council of Jerusalem’s decision regarding Gentile converts.

Right before that, however, it makes clear that James, the elders of Jerusalem, and Paul, as Jews all were “living in obedience to the law” even after the Council of Jerusalem.

If that’s what Paul the Apostle and James the Bishop of Jerusalem did, why was it changed by later Church Fathers?

What on earth are you talking about? The Early Church Fathers could not have changed what the Apostles did. Do you know what it means to be an Early Church Father? These are those who were taught by the Apostles (at least the first generation of them were).

Why were later Jewish Christians discouraged from doing as Paul and James did?

Because later converts weren’t Jewish Christians. These Evangelical wackos certainly aren’t, and those who are (as my earlier example of Fr. James Bernstein) actually Jewish Christians don’t do as these “Messianic Jews” do. The true Jewish Christians are in the line of the of those Jewish Apostles, having joined apostolic churches that don’t put up with such foolishness.

If the Apostolic Faith is being passed on, shouldn’t the example of the early mainstream Jewish Apostles like Paul and James the Bishop be allowed for later Jewish Christians?

And yet that’s not what we see. Those who are baptized into Christ no matter what their background join churches which, again, have already incorporated all the Jewish practices that were seen in the apostolic era to be essential to Christian life. St. Mark, for instance, was a Libyan Jew, and yet the people of the Church he founded, the Coptic Orthodox Church, do not adopt the practice of the Libyan Jews. Because, again, Christianity is not Judaism, and we already have all the Jewish roots we need. That is why Judaizing is wrong and rejected by those same Jewish apostles.

 

[AbideWithMe]

And I am one Orthodox who reject Jewishness as a cohesive ethnicity, …

So, are you saying you believe there are no Jews left?

If you are saying you believe that, is that standard Orthodox belief?

 

[AbideWithMe]

What on earth are you talking about? The Early Church Fathers could not have changed what the Apostles did.

Dzheremi—Do you agree that Acts 21 affirms that James, the elders of Jerusalem, and Paul were "living in obedience to the law? If your answer is “no, Acts 21 does not show that”, please explain your thinking.

Because later converts weren’t Jewish Christians. These Evangelical wackos certainly aren’t, and those who are (as my earlier example of Fr. James Bernstein) actually Jewish Christians don’t do as these “Messianic Jews” do. The true Jewish Christians are in the line of the of those Jewish Apostles, having joined apostolic churches that don’t put up with such foolishness.

*How are you defining “true Jewish Christians” here? Take this example: If someone is a Jew, born to both a Jewish mother and father, and he converts to Orthodoxy or Catholicism, then you would say he was a true Jewish Christian? But if that same person converts, like my dad did, to Christianity, is baptized in the Trinitarian formula, and becomes a member of a Protestant church—Methodist in my dad’s case—then, what? Is he not a true Christian, or are you saying he was never a Jew? /I]
Oops, I messed up the format of this post. The first and third paragraphs are from Dzheremi; the second and fourth paragraphs (starting and ending with three asterisks) are from me.

 

[dzheremi]

So, are you saying you believe there are no Jews left?

No, not at all. Clearly, there are Jews. What I wrote was that there is no cohesive “Jewish race”. Genetic markers can be used to point to Jewish presence in a certain place or a certain person’s lineage, but to the extent that the same markers are also found in non-Jews, we’re talking about what a person’s interpretation of those markers is, not “you have X % of the following marker, therefore you are a Jew”. That doesn’t work, at a genetic level.

If you are saying you believe that, is that standard Orthodox belief?

No. The Orthodox Church has no particular belief about Jews or Jewishness. I wrote that I’m Orthodox to keep my response parallel to what I was responding to, as you had written “Fr. William Sanchez is one such Catholic”, etc.

 

[CopticChristian]

So, are you saying you believe there are no Jews left?

If you are saying you believe that, is that standard Orthodox belief?

Abide,

This was the entirety of what Dz said…

And I am one Orthodox who reject Jewishness as a cohesive ethnicity, especially among converts, which is what any of the descendents of these people would have to be, since they’re all Catholics now, and have been for hundreds of years.

 

[YKohen]

No, not at all. Clearly, there are Jews. What I wrote was that there is no cohesive “Jewish race”. Genetic markers can be used to point to Jewish presence in a certain place or a certain person’s lineage, but to the extent that the same markers are also found in non-Jews, we’re talking about what a person’s interpretation of those markers is, not “you have X % of the following marker, therefore you are a Jew”. That doesn’t work, at a genetic level.

While there are genetic markers that are mostly Jewish (for instance, freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/574370/posts and cohen-levi.org/dna.htm), there were always converts who joined the nation of Israel as well. Ruth the Moabite was of course the paradigm. Consequently, Jews come in all races.

We don’t use DNA to “prove” Jewishness.

 

[dzheremi]

I know you don’t. Other people seem to enjoy doing so, however. I’m just pointing out that I do not agree with this idea, for much the same reason as you’ve pointed out. I don’t believe that Jews form a cohesive race, and I wouldn’t think that most Jews would be behind that idea either, for obvious historical reasons.

 

[CopticChristian]

I know you don’t. Other people seem to enjoy doing so, however. I’m just pointing out that I do not agree with this idea, for much the same reason as you’ve pointed out. I don’t believe that Jews form a cohesive race, and I wouldn’t think that most Jews would be behind that idea either, for obvious historical reasons.

DZ,

You know those Sephardic Jews, the ones that look like Mexicans that have stars of David?..well you know…those Mexicans are descendants of a the Aztecs…at least some are…

The Aztec, The Inca, they were all great nations and now no more…I suppose you can say that the Mexicans with the star of David that say Yeshua are descendants of other than the Aztecs and in fact you would have to trace the history of the Spanish and the Jews for that one…

You know that the Northern and Souther Kingdom of Israel were dispersed…great Kingdoms…just like the Inca and Aztecs…just memories…and you know the temple was destroyed and the Jews were dispersed…just like the Mexicans that are really Mexicans and not the ones that look like Mexicans wearing the star of David…that are Sephardic…

So the Jews of today are descendants of a great Kingdom…and so are like those Mexicans in a way…

Israel as you know is not the Israel of the Bible for the Israel of the Bible is supposed to be a priestly nation…and the Israel we have today is an invention of the United Nations fostered by British Evangelicals…

So while the Mexicans and the Incas have much in common…so do the Jews throughout the world have much in common with what was and not what is, and as you say are not a cohesive race for as you know they were dispersed…and the Israel created by the United Nations is no Kingdom…

 

[dzheremi]

Don’t take this the wrong way, Copt, but I don’t have the slightest idea what you’re trying to say here.

 

[YKohen]

I know you don’t. Other people seem to enjoy doing so, however. I’m just pointing out that I do not agree with this idea, for much the same reason as you’ve pointed out. I don’t believe that Jews form a cohesive race, and I wouldn’t think that most Jews would be behind that idea either, for obvious historical reasons.

THE reason for us is that throughout the Torah, we are called a “nation”; not a race, not a religion, not an ethnicity, or anything else.

 

[YKohen]

Israel as you know is not the Israel of the Bible for the Israel of the Bible is supposed to be a priestly nation…and the Israel we have today is an invention of the United Nations fostered by British Evangelicals…

So sorry, but of course we’re the same as the Israel of the Bible; their direct descendants- even when we sin. This is made clear throughout the Bible- time and again.

As to today, see Ezekiel 36-37.

That’s us, and this is now.