Are Messianic Jews Christian?

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🙂

I’m just responding.

BTW- I LOVE the pic. I gotta figure out how to make a Jewish one of those…
 
YKohen said:
THE reason for us is that throughout the Torah, we are called a “nation”; not a race, not a religion, not an ethnicity, or anything else.
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Am in agreement with you.

Dzheremi’s statement is akin to making an argument that the only real Buddhists are the Indians because the original ‘Buddhists’ were Indian. Today there are Buddhists worldwide, they are not a particular ‘race’ or ‘ethnicity’.

A Jew is a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob. This includes converts to Judaism, the same way Catholics embrace converts.

Is that correct?
 
CopticChristian said:
DZ,

You know those Sephardic Jews, the ones that look like Mexicans that have stars of David?..well you know…those Mexicans are descendants of a the Aztecs…at least some are…

The Aztec, The Inca, they were all great nations and now no more…I suppose you can say that the Mexicans with the star of David that say Yeshua are descendants of other than the Aztecs and in fact you would have to trace the history of the Spanish and the Jews for that one…

You know that the Northern and Souther Kingdom of Israel were dispersed…great Kingdoms…just like the Inca and Aztecs…just memories…and you know the temple was destroyed and the Jews were dispersed…just like the Mexicans that are really Mexicans and not the ones that look like Mexicans wearing the star of David…that are Sephardic…

So the Jews of today are descendants of a great Kingdom…and so are like those Mexicans in a way…

Israel as you know is not the Israel of the Bible for the Israel of the Bible is supposed to be a priestly nation…and the Israel we have today is an invention of the United Nations fostered by British Evangelicals…

So while the Mexicans and the Incas have much in common…so do the Jews throughout the world have much in common with what was and not what is, and as you say are not a cohesive race for as you know they were dispersed…and the Israel created by the United Nations is no Kingdom…🙂
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We actually have a Shephardic Jew on board, his name is… wait for it… Br. JR. 🙂
 
LEMAITRE said:
Am in agreement with you.

Dzheremi’s statement is akin to making an argument that the only real Buddhists are the Indians because the original ‘Buddhists’ were Indian. Today there are Buddhists worldwide, they are not a particular ‘race’ or ‘ethnicity’.
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The bolded portion is my argument. There is no Jewish race, hence attempts to link disparate peoples to Judaism via DNA testing are silly. That’s not even how the Jews conceive of themselves in the first place, as poster YKohen has clarified.
 
LEMAITRE said:
A Jew is a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob. This includes converts to Judaism, the same way Catholics embrace converts.

Is that correct?
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In terms of how the Church embraces converts, I’m not knowledgeable enough to say.

For us, even if one’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother for 100 generations back was Jewish- but the person today had zero connection to Judaism- even if they are raised in some other belief system, they are considered Jewish; no conversion required (although they might have to prove the matrilineal thing). And even if one knowingly leaves Judaism, they and their children (as long as the mother is Jewish) are considered Jews.
 
dzheremi said:
No. The Orthodox Church has no particular belief about Jews or Jewishness. I wrote that I’m Orthodox to keep my response parallel to what I was responding to, as you had written “Fr. William Sanchez is one such Catholic”, etc.
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Okay. I asked, Dzheremi, because I’m still baffled by your assertion that Messianic Jews are neither Jews nor Christians, and I was just feeling around for more information to try to understand where you’re coming from. Some time back there was a once-popular theory that most, or all, Ashkenazic Jews aren’t really ethnically Jews at all, but rather descended from Khazar converts. The theory has been discredited, in part by modern DNA testing, but it continues to be espoused by some groups. I was wondering if that Khazar theory played a role in your statements; and if it did, if the theory was held by many Orthodox Christians.
 
dzheremi said:
I know you don’t. Other people seem to enjoy doing so, however. I’m just pointing out that I do not agree with this idea, for much the same reason as you’ve pointed out. I don’t believe that Jews form a cohesive race, and I wouldn’t think that most Jews would be behind that idea either, for obvious historical reasons.
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I haven’t seen the Jewish researchers trying to use DNA to “prove” Jewishness in the case of some Latin Americans possibly being descendants of crypto-Jews who fled the Spanish Inquisition. It seems to be used as one piece of evidence, added to others, to come closer to answering a question that in reality will probably never be answered conclusively.

I posted the link from the Catholic News Service not as any sort of proof of anything, but because you and Onemangang appeared to be saying that the Mexicans who believe they’re descended from Sephardic Jews from the time of the Inquisition had to full of nonsense. While I’m skeptical of the theory myself, I don’t think it’s complete nonsense. It’s somewhat plausible, but again, probably won’t ever be answered conclusively.

Here’s another link, if anyone’s interested in more information, from a 2005 New York Times story. It’s a short article. www.nytimes.com/2005/10/29/national/29religion.html —“Hispanics Uncovering Roots as Inquisition’s ‘Hidden’ Jews”

Far from being embarrassed by these Latin Americans as Dzheremi seemed to say, some Jewish people appear quite supportive of the idea that crypto-Jews could have survived in the New World for so long with some memory and customs left from their possible origins.

As I said before, who knows? It’s not that crazy of a theory.
 
AbideWithMe said:
Okay. I asked, Dzheremi, because I’m still baffled by your assertion that Messianic Jews are neither Jews nor Christians
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It’s pretty simple, really: If there’s no such thing as a Jewish race (and I don’t think there is), then it doesn’t matter if their DNA tests point to a Jewish past via certain markers found mostly in Jews. Then we have to actually look at what they believe (!), and when we do that we find that they’re a mismash that is, to varying degrees, unacceptable to both sides: Unacceptable to Jews due to their identification of Jesus with the Messiah, and unacceptable to Christians because time was we did not tolerate Judaizers at all. This is still the case in the churches that follow the Apostles and the Fathers, who reject such behavior, even if from well-intentioned but confused people like these “Messianic Jews”.
 
AbideWithMe said:
Far from being embarrassed by these Latin Americans as Dzheremi seemed to say, some Jewish people appear quite supportive of the idea that crypto-Jews could have survived in the New World for so long with some memory and customs left from their possible origins.
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Who cares? I’m way more recently descended from this same general gene pool (grandmother from Mexico, grandfather from Portugal, so it covers both at least some of the people who left Europe and some of the people who had Europe imposed on them) than any of these “crypto-Jew” fantasizers are, and yes, they’re embarrassing me with their stupid behavior and vapid n-th generation pathetic identity politics. It’s embarrassing when people who should know better prefer to live in a fantasy land where somehow they’re extra-special little snowflakes and have the DNA tests to prove it. Nobody outside of this thread cares that you have Judaica-themed jewelery and like to wear a yarmulke or whatever.
 
dzheremi said:
I know you don’t. Other people seem to enjoy doing so, however. I’m just pointing out that I do not agree with this idea, for much the same reason as you’ve pointed out. I don’t believe that Jews form a cohesive race, and I wouldn’t think that most Jews would be behind that idea either, for obvious historical reasons.
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I am very thankful that God chose the Jewish people to give to us all of the Tanakh and the NT who were called out and inspired by the Holy Spirit. I am very thankful that Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, John the Baptist and the twelve apostles are Jewish. I am very thankful that God chose for us that salvation is of the Jews. I am very thankful that Elijah is going to prepare the way of the Lord when He returns, and there are going to be 144,000 Jewish witnesses to assist him. I am sure glad that God knows that there are Jewish people of the tribes of Israel who are to be his servants in these last days.

Thank you God, for all of your faithful Jewish servants

micah
 
YKohen said:
So sorry, but of course we’re the same as the Israel of the Bible; their direct descendants- even when we sin. This is made clear throughout the Bible- time and again.

As to today, see Ezekiel 36-37.

That’s us, and this is now.
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Yk,

I understand what it is you think and believe…but according to the Lord and Moses that the Jews refused to listen to…
3Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 4‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself. 5‘Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’
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The Isreal created by the United Nations does not fit the bill…now that does not mean that there cannot be a change, but for now Israel is not a kingdom of priests and a Holy Nation that the Lord told Moses to tell the people…

Earlier in Ezekiel…you are correct…this is you…dispersed…
16Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 17“Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity. 18“Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols. 19“Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them. 20“When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, ‘These are the people of the LORD; yet they have come out of His land.’ 21“But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.
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and you now know that the Lord God is the Lord…and the United Nations has no power to do what God can do…
37‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “This also I will let the house of Israel ask Me to do for them: I will increase their men like a flock. 38“Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so will the waste cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they will know that I am the LORD.”’”
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stand by and wait for the Nation to be kingdom of priests and a Holy Nation…in God all things are possible…in the mean time…it is what it is…
 
YKohen said:
So sorry, but of course we’re the same as the Israel of the Bible; their direct descendants- even when we sin. This is made clear throughout the Bible- time and again.

As to today, see Ezekiel 36-37.
That’s us, and this is now.
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Interesting…
I’ve only seen dispensationalist fundamentalists claim those verses.
:cool:
 
mercytruth said:
I am very thankful that God chose the Jewish people to give to us all of the Tanakh and the NT who were called out and inspired by the Holy Spirit. I am very thankful that Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, John the Baptist and the twelve apostles are Jewish. I am very thankful that God chose for us that salvation is of the Jews. I am very thankful that Elijah is going to prepare the way of the Lord when He returns, and there are going to be 144,000 Jewish witnesses to assist him. I am sure glad that God knows that there are Jewish people of the tribes of Israel who are to be his servants in these last days.

Thank you God, for all of your faithful Jewish servants

micah
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Mercy,

To be correct…thank God for choosing Israel to be the light of the Nation…it was not the tribe of Judah alone…that would be the Jews…

Thank God for Israels disobedience and failure to comply because that is what gave us the obedient member of the tribe of Judah…

By one man’s obedience we were made righteous…because prior to that all had failed to be obedient and suffered…

Has God abandoned His people…by no means…for to them were given the utterance of Scripture…and if there is any lesson here…having been given the utterance of Scripture…Scripture alone was not enough…and that produced the Lion of the tribe of Judah for which true gratitude is expressed…🙂
 
CopticChristian said:
Mercy,

To be correct…thank God for choosing Israel to be the light of the Nation…it was not the tribe of Judah alone…that would be the Jews…

Thank God for Israels disobedience and failure to comply because that is what gave us the obedient member of the tribe of Judah…

By one man’s obedience we were made righteous…because prior to that all had failed to be obedient and suffered…

Has God abandoned His people…by no means…for to them were given the utterance of Scripture…and if there is any lesson here…having been given the utterance of Scripture…Scripture alone was not enough…and that produced the Lion of the tribe of Judah for which true gratitude is expressed…🙂
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You are technically correct in saying that the prophets and servants of God are from other tribes than Judah. However, God still has a plan for his chosen people…without them there will be no resurrection of the dead, no kingdom to come.

As I see it from Ezekiel, the stick of Judah (practicing Jews of all tribes) will be joined to (Joseph, that is, Ephraim which is practicing Christians from all nations):

The word of the Lord came to me: 16) “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17) Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
  1. “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19) say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20) Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21) and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22) I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23) They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
  2. “‘My servant David will be king over them,
    (Ezekiel 37:16-24)
God’s peace

micah
 
mercytruth said:
You are technically correct in saying that the prophets and servants of God are from other tribes than Judah. However, God still has a plan for his chosen people…without them there will be no resurrection of the dead, no kingdom to come.

As I see it from Ezekiel, the stick of Judah (practicing Jews of all tribes) will be joined to (Joseph, that is, Ephraim which is practicing Christians from all nations):

The word of the Lord came to me: 16) “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17) Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
  1. “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19) say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20) Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21) and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22) I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23) They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
  2. “‘My servant David will be king over them,
    (Ezekiel 37:16-24)
God’s peace

micah
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Micah,

and recognize that from a perspective of who is a Jew…we are all Jews…for in God there is no impartiality…

and recognize what is the true Israel…dirt…? or a people?..a Spriitual Kingdom…as is professed by the OHCAC…or land created by British Evangelicals with the help of the United Nations to comply with Dispensational thought to bring Jesus back…?
 
I have learned quite a bit here this week. But I would say that anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as our Lord and is baptised in the Trinity is indeed Christian.

Now the question comes up are they in the fullness of the RCC? Some I see now are, some are not.

I truly believe that when all the Jews come to know Christ will be the end of the world.

Our scripture tells us many will not see the truth until the second comming and will like us glorify Christ as the true Son of God.
 
CopticChristian said:
Micah,

and recognize that from a perspective of who is a Jew…we are all Jews…for in God there is no impartiality…

and recognize what is the true Israel…dirt…? or a people?..a Spriitual Kingdom…as is professed by the OHCAC…or land created by British Evangelicals with the help of the United Nations to comply with Dispensational thought to bring Jesus back…?
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Spiritually, in Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek, no partiality as you say.

The apostle Paul makes it very clear that there is a distinction between the body of Christ, and the body of Israel, brethren of the apostle Paul according to the flesh. There is a distinction between natural olive branches and the wild olive branches.

As I said in Post #60, it seems that both the apostle Peter and the apostle Paul refer to "Ephraim’ and the promises given to Ephraim as representative of the church, that part of Israel that is referred to as ‘spiritual Israel’. (with no offense to the natural branches intended).

So, when you say that Israel was cut off because of disobedience, I could say the same could ve said for Christianity during the past 2000 years.

God’s peace

micah
 
mercytruth said:
Spiritually, in Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek, no partiality as you say.

The apostle Paul makes it very clear that there is a distinction between the body of Christ, and the body of Israel, brethren of the apostle Paul according to the flesh. There is a distinction between natural olive branches and the wild olive branches.

As I said in Post #60, it seems that both the apostle Peter and the apostle Paul refer to "Ephraim’ and the promises given to Ephraim as representative of the church, that part of Israel that is referred to as ‘spiritual Israel’. (with no offense to the natural branches intended).

**So, when you say that Israel was cut off because of disobedience, I could say the same could ve said for Christianity during the past 2000 years. **
God’s peace

micah
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Micah,

Think…The Church is the body of Christ…the Bride of Christ…the people of God…the New Israel…within the Church there are those that cut themselves off…because if you say that Christianity is cut off you debase the work of God/Christ…

The gates of hades shall not prevail? was that a suggestion? was that a possibility? Was that a declararation of fact?

rethink this…
 
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