Are Messianic Jews Christian?

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CopticChristian said:
Yk,

I understand what it is you think and believe…but according to the Lord and Moses that the Jews refused to listen to…
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According to both, we would sin, we would suffer, be exiled, and G-d would bring us back home again to the land of Israel- even though we don’t deserve it.
The Isreal created by the United Nations does not fit the bill…now that does not mean that there cannot be a change, but for now Israel is not a kingdom of priests and a Holy Nation that the Lord told Moses to tell the people…
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Of course it does- just as Cyrus, the King of Persia, facilitated the return of the Jews back in his day. In fact, the Jews who returned with Ezra were not the more religious either.
Earlier in Ezekiel…you are correct…this is you…dispersed.
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And afterwards:

*20 And when they came unto the nations, whither they came, they profaned My holy name; in that men said of them: These are the people of the L-rd, and are gone forth out of His land.

21 But I had pity for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations, whither they came.

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel: Thus saith the L-rd G-d: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye came.

23 And I will sanctify My great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am the L-rd, saith the L-rd G-d, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep Mine ordinances, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your G-d. *

Notice that first, G-d brings us back to the land and then He purifies us.

I know it must be hard for you theologically to see this happening before your eyes and not understand how it could be.

But it is.

Really: There are only a few possibilities:
  1. The survival and return of the nation of Israel is a mere coincidence. Can’t be.
  2. The survival and return of the nation of Israel is as per the Bible (and be sure to see Ezekiel 37: “Auschwitz to Israel”).
Can you think of another explanation that fits in with the Bible?
 
CopticChristian said:
Micah,

Think…The Church is the body of Christ…the Bride of Christ…the people of God…the New Israel…within the Church there are those that cut themselves off…because if you say that Christianity is cut off you debase the work of God/Christ…

The gates of hades shall not prevail? was that a suggestion? was that a possibility? Was that a declararation of fact?

rethink this…
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Absolutes lead to absolute thinking.

The church as spiritual Israel is not representative of all of Israel as the apostle Paul clearly explains in Romans 11. To say that the body of Christ represents the ‘new Israel’. is to say that the natural branches are extinct. The apostle Paul says that ‘all Israel will be saved’, in context, he was not speaking of the church, the body of Christ.

There has always been a remnant of God’s people among observing Jews, and among observing Christians. We can never say everyone was cut off from God of the people of Israel, nor am I saying everyone is cut off of Christianity.

"Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to eternal life, and few there are that find it"

God’s peace

micah
 
YKohen said:
If you want to see cool, read Ezekiel 37 and think of the Holocaust to the establishment of the state of Israel.
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:cool:
You are speaking to a former Baptist preacher who used to buy into the heresy of Dispensationalism.
I can honestly say I never met someone who claims to be Jewish believing in Dispensationalism.
I just find it…curious shall we say.
:cool:
 
JustaServant said:
:cool:
You are speaking to a former Baptist preacher who used to buy into the heresy of Dispensationalism.
I can honestly say I never met someone who claims to be Jewish believing in Dispensationalism.
I just find it…curious shall we say.
:cool:
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Dispensationalism is a Christian thing. We don’t believe in it.

But we do believe in G-d’s promises to us- and see them being fulfilled right now.

As we always knew would be.
 
mercytruth said:
Absolutes lead to absolute thinking.

The church as spiritual Israel is not representative of all of Israel as the apostle Paul clearly explains in Romans 11. To say that the body of Christ represents the ‘new Israel’. is to say that the natural branches are extinct. The apostle Paul says that ‘all Israel will be saved’, in context, he was not speaking of the church, the body of Christ.

There has always been a remnant of God’s people among observing Jews, and among observing Christians. We can never say everyone was cut off from God of the people of Israel, nor am I saying everyone is cut off of Christianity.

"Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to eternal life, and few there are that find it"

God’s peace

micah
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Micah,

Absolutes? The Church is the Body of Christ. This is an absolute.

Concerning Romans…go back to Romans 3…

Notice what Paul does here…is it people he speaks of…look at the “Or”…Circumcision is what puts you in the Old Covenant…that fails to gain what it was the Jews/Israel sought…and Paul makes the point that it is no longer valid…
1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
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Romans 7 Paul points out something that the reader that was trying to force on Christians, ie the Old Covenant…likening it to a spouse…The Old Covenant, spouse no longer lives and that is why through the “mystery”, what mystery? The Church by which Gentiles will be made fellow heirs…all can be joined…
1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
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  4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ,** so that you might be joined to another,** to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
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and if you realize that from Romans 3 up until the passage you quote, the entire letter is directed towards casting off the Old Covenant and disobedience…because Paul says in 3…“first”…I challenge you to find the second and the third…he surfaces right at 11 with the next point…

He points out what you refer to in 11 here…
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
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and if you question what the letter is about…it is about obedience and disobedience and the rewards through the mystery…as seen in the introduction and end…

Romans 1
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the **obedience of faith **among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
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Romans 16
25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
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absolutes? Absolutely…👍
 
YKohen said:
Dispensationalism is a Christian thing. We don’t believe in it.

But we do believe in G-d’s promises to us- and see them being fulfilled right now.

As we always knew would be.
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That interpretation of Ezekiel did not arrive until Dispensationalism became popularized at the beginning of the 20th century.
Are claiming Jews always believed that?
 
JustaServant said:
That interpretation of Ezekiel did not arrive until Dispensationalism became popularized at the beginning of the 20th century.
Are claiming Jews always believed that?
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We always believed that G-d would return us to our land- as He promised.

NOBODY knew exactly how it would happen or when.

Now you can see with your own eyes.

For Christians, this phenomenon has been a huge theological problem because it wasn’t in line with what they expected would happen. They had to come up with a theory.

We didn’t have to.
 
YKohen said:
We always believed that G-d would return us to our land- as He promised.

NOBODY knew exactly how it would happen or when.

Now you can see with your own eyes.

For Christians, this phenomenon has been a huge theological problem because it wasn’t in line with what they expected would happen. They had to come up with a theory.

We didn’t have to.
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Again.
Are claiming Jews always believed that?
 
YKohen said:
We always believed that G-d would return us to our land- as He promised.

NOBODY knew exactly how it would happen or when.

Now you can see with your own eyes.

For Christians, this phenomenon has been a huge theological problem because it wasn’t in line with what they expected would happen. They had to come up with a theory.

We didn’t have to.
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And our theory, that the church represents the ‘new Israel’, and that 'natural Israel is out of the picture, will be proven to be wrong.

shalom

micah
 
mercytruth said:
And our theory, that the church represents the ‘new Israel’, and that 'natural Israel is out of the picture, will be proven to be wrong.

shalom

micah
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“Natural Israel” is very much in the picture; as you see.
 
CopticChristian said:
Micah,

Absolutes? The Church is the Body of Christ. This is an absolute.

Concerning Romans…go back to Romans 3…

Notice what Paul does here…is it people he speaks of…look at the “Or”…Circumcision is what puts you in the Old Covenant…that fails to gain what it was the Jews/Israel sought…and Paul makes the point that it is no longer valid…

Romans 7 Paul points out something that the reader that was trying to force on Christians, ie the Old Covenant…likening it to a spouse…The Old Covenant, spouse no longer lives and that is why through the “mystery”, what mystery? The Church by which Gentiles will be made fellow heirs…all can be joined…

and if you realize that from Romans 3 up until the passage you quote, the entire letter is directed towards casting off the Old Covenant and disobedience…because Paul says in 3…“first”…I challenge you to find the second and the third…he surfaces right at 11 with the next point…

He points out what you refer to in 11 here…

and if you question what the letter is about…it is about obedience and disobedience and the rewards through the mystery…as seen in the introduction and end…

Romans 1

Romans 16

absolutes? Absolutely…👍
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I was specifically applying the theory of ‘absolutes’ to the realm of interpreting the prophetic future between the church and Israel. I think we have made some errors in our assumption

God’s peace be with you

micah
 
YKohen said:
ALWAYS- and we have prayed for it in our daily prayers 3 times a day, every day- plus in many other prayers.
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Please document historically where Jews have always had the Dispensationalist view of Ezekiel.
 
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