Are Messianic Jews Christians?

[thephilosopher6]

Messianic Jews mostly seem to hold to Evangelical Protestant theology while worshiping like Jews and still following some of the Old Testament laws. Most object to being labeled as “Christian” and deem themselves as “Jewish followers of Yeshuah.” A lot of them are actually just gentiles who found a liking for Messianic Jewish style of worship and culture, although there are genuinely some with actual Jewish background. What are we, as Catholics, to think of them as?

 

[Kaninchen]

Messianic Jews mostly seem to hold to Evangelical Protestant theology while worshiping like Jews and still following some of the Old Testament laws. Most object to being labeled as “Christian” and deem themselves as “Jewish followers of Yeshuah.” A lot of them are actually just gentiles who found a liking for Messianic Jewish style of worship and culture, although there are genuinely some with actual Jewish background. What are we, as Catholics, to think of them as?

They’re Christians.

Some Christians do seem to get cross about Jews not accepting them as Jewish though.

 

[meltzerboy]

To most Jews, they cannot be Jewish if they accept Jesus as either the Messiah or G-d, or both. That would also include Nazarene Jews, who believe Jesus is the Messiah but in a different sense than most other Christians, yet do not accept His divinity. Personally, however, I prefer to think of people as they identify themselves, so if Messianic Jews wish to call themselves Jews, that is fine with me. I cannot speak for Catholics on this matter.

 

[Darryl_B]

Unfortunately “Messianic Jew” is almost as broad a term as “Jew” itself.

 

[thephilosopher6]

They’re Christians.

Some Christians do seem to get cross about Jews not accepting them as Jewish though.

Yes, but most Christians would not accept them unless they have valid baptism to which I have no knowledge if they have valid baptism or not. If they do not, I wouldn’t consider them modern Jews either, so they’d obviously be a new kind of religion in between. To me, they’re either Christians if they have valid baptism, if not, then they are a new religion.

 

[Kaninchen]

Yes, but most Christians would not accept them unless they have valid baptism.

Most of them are some sub-species of Evangelical so wouldn’t baptism be the ‘norm’?

 

[thephilosopher6]

Most of them are some sub-species of Evangelical so wouldn’t baptism be the ‘norm’?

Well some Evangelicals do not consider bapitsm as nessecary for salvation, that’s why some won’t baptize their children. So bapitsm wouldn’t be something you needed to join them. Now, the Catholic Church does generally accept Evangelical bapitsm as valid, as long as it’s done with water in any matter in the name of the Trinity. But Messianic Jews are certainly not your typical kind of Evangelical, so how they baptize I do not know. They could give a “Jesus only” bapitsm for all we know, like Oneness Pentecostals. If they did, they wouldn’t be consider Christian by most other Christians except maybe among some Evangelicals. But mainstream denominations like the Catholic Church would not accept them.

 

[Kaninchen]

Well some Evangelicals do not consider bapitsm as nessecary for salvation, that’s why some won’t baptize their children. So bapitsm wouldn’t be something you needed to join them. Now, the Catholic Church does generally accept Evangelical bapitsm as valid, as long as it’s done with water in any matter in the name of the Trinity. But Messianic Jews are certainly not your typical kind of Evangelical, so how they baptize I do not know. They could give a “Jesus only” bapitsm for all we know, like Oneness Pentecostals. If they did, they wouldn’t be consider Christian by most other Christians except maybe among some Evangelicals. But mainstream denominations like the Catholic Church would not accept them.

Who gets to determine what the boundaries are is a key problem with boundaries, of course.

My experience of the activities of Messianic ‘Jews’ has been that they’re a kind of attempt at annexationism by manipulation of definition.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Who gets to determine what the boundaries are is a key problem with boundaries, of course.

My experience of the activities of Messianic ‘Jews’ has been that they’re a kind of attempt at annexationism by manipulation of definition.

Religions are complex things my friend.

From what I have heard they can actually be semi-cultic like. I certainly don’t approve their “methods” of proselytization. They even suck in regular people with no Jewish background and make them think they’re Jewish just because they like the worship style.

Unfortunately for them, Christianity parted ways from Judaism around 100 A.D, and the two have developed very differently since. I don’t think you can get away with saying you accept Jesus as Messiah and still practice modern day religious Judaism. Yes, you can be a Jewish Christian today in the sense of having a Jewish background, but you can’t claim to hold to the modern day Jewish religion and believe Jesus as Messiah. It’s not the 1st century anymore.

 

[Kaninchen]

Religions are complex things my friend.

From what I have heard they can actually be semi-cultic like. I certainly don’t approve their “methods” of proselytization. They even suck in regular people with no Jewish background and make them think they’re Jewish just because they like the worship style.

Unfortunately for them, Christianity parted ways from Judaism around 100 A.D, and the two have developed very differently since. I don’t think you can get away with saying you accept Jesus as Messiah and still practice modern day religious Judaism. Yes, you can be a Jewish Christian today in the sense of having a Jewish background, but you can’t claim to hold to the modern day Jewish religion and believe Jesus as Messiah. It’s not the 1st century anymore.

There does seem to be a devotion to the idea that Christianity is Judaism plus Jesus/Judaism is Christianity minus Jesus. They’re two very different religions.

 

[thephilosopher6]

There does seem to be a devotion to the idea that Christianity is Judaism plus Jesus/Judaism is Christianity minus Jesus. They’re two very different religions.

The two have been separate for a long time now, indeed. Yes, Christianity started out as a Jewish sect, but developments occured in both and they separated. They are now two different religions. Messianic Jews just don’t see that though.

 

[peter26]

From what I understand, Messianic Jews believe Jesus is the Messiah but do not universally accept that Jesus is God, and a belief in the Trinity is a rarity, so on that basis I would say they could probably not be called Christians.

 

[7_Sorrows]

There does seem to be a devotion to the idea that Christianity is Judaism plus Jesus/Judaism is Christianity minus Jesus. They’re two very different religions.

I agree. It is not that simplistic. Catholicism has more in common with Judaism
than protestant Christianity.
Which is why there is another group known as Hebrew Catholics.

 

[joeybaggz]

Well some Evangelicals do not consider bapitsm as nessecary for salvation, that’s why some won’t baptize their children. So bapitsm wouldn’t be something you needed to join them. Now, the Catholic Church does generally accept Evangelical bapitsm as valid, as long as it’s done with water in any matter in the name of the Trinity. But Messianic Jews are certainly not your typical kind of Evangelical, so how they baptize I do not know. They could give a “Jesus only” bapitsm for all we know, like Oneness Pentecostals. If they did, they wouldn’t be consider Christian by most other Christians except maybe among some Evangelicals. But mainstream denominations like the Catholic Church would not accept them.

Baptism of Desire, maybe? One of the three forms of baptism; water, blood, and desire?

 

[Autumn_Smoke]

Here’s the website from the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, which was founded in 1915. mjaa.org/messianic-movement/ and they discuss this question.

(There’s also a ‘Messianic Jewish Alliance of Israel.’)

I was involved with Messianic Judaism for many years. Each congregation of Messianic Jews would be different from another, usually depending on the background of the leader. One congregation I went to, the leader was a Rabbi from an Orthodox background. When he came to believe in Y’shua as the Messiah, he remained an ordained Rabbi, but started a Messianic Congregation. It was neither Evangelical, nor patterned after a Christian Church, but was just like attending a synagogue–except for the belief in Y’shua.

Other leaders are from various backgrounds in Judaism and became ordained through a Christian denomination and set up congregations as varied as their backgrounds. I would assume though, that as the movement grows, it may become recognized within itself and set up an ordination if its own through its own educational programs and requirements, but that’s just my thought. .

The people who attend Messianic congregations are a mixture of those from a Christian background and people from a Jewish background who believe the Messiah has already come. Some of these would refer to themselves as Christians, others would not. It would depend on the individual. and the answer would be as varied as the individual and their own background. But the website I mentioned above explains it from a Messianic Jewish perspective.

 

[meltzerboy]

Here’s the website from the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, which was founded in 1915. mjaa.org/messianic-movement/ and they discuss this question.

(There’s also a ‘Messianic Jewish Alliance of Israel.’)

I was involved with Messianic Judaism for many years. Each congregation of Messianic Jews would be different from another, usually depending on the background of the leader. One congregation I went to, the leader was a Rabbi from an Orthodox background. When he came to believe in Y’shua as the Messiah, he remained an ordained Rabbi, but started a Messianic Congregation. It was neither Evangelical, nor patterned after a Christian Church, but was just like attending a synagogue–except for the belief in Y’shua.

Other leaders are from various backgrounds in Judaism and became ordained through a Christian denomination and set up congregations as varied as their backgrounds. I would assume though, that as the movement grows, it may become recognized within itself and set up an ordination if its own through its own educational programs and requirements, but that’s just my thought. .

The people who attend Messianic congregations are a mixture of those from a Christian background and people from a Jewish background who believe the Messiah has already come. Some of these would refer to themselves as Christians, others would not. It would depend on the individual. and the answer would be as varied as the individual and their own background. But the website I mentioned above explains it from a Messianic Jewish perspective.

Thanks for the information and link. I suspected for a while there was a lot of variation among members of Messianic Jewish congregations. Whether that Orthodox rabbi can officially be considered a rabbi now is doubtful; but, you know, people don’t always neatly fit into the boxes we might like to view them in. There is often overlap, jumping in and out of the box as well as moving from one box to another. Religion, like life itself, is not at all simple.

 

[GEddie]

Some “Messianic Jews” are not even Jewish of blood. Such congregations (though they would angrily deny it) are Christian, full stop.

Whether they have the blood or not, Messianics are not accepted by Judaism as Jewish, (the principle being that belief in the teaching of another religion, i.e. Christianity, implies deconversion) and e.g. cannot immigrate to Israel as Jews. Messianics living in Israel have in the past been discriminated against.

ICXC NIKA

 

[thephilosopher6]

Here’s the website from the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, which was founded in 1915. mjaa.org/messianic-movement/ and they discuss this question.

(There’s also a ‘Messianic Jewish Alliance of Israel.’)

I was involved with Messianic Judaism for many years. Each congregation of Messianic Jews would be different from another, usually depending on the background of the leader. One congregation I went to, the leader was a Rabbi from an Orthodox background. When he came to believe in Y’shua as the Messiah, he remained an ordained Rabbi, but started a Messianic Congregation. It was neither Evangelical, nor patterned after a Christian Church, but was just like attending a synagogue–except for the belief in Y’shua.

Other leaders are from various backgrounds in Judaism and became ordained through a Christian denomination and set up congregations as varied as their backgrounds. I would assume though, that as the movement grows, it may become recognized within itself and set up an ordination if its own through its own educational programs and requirements, but that’s just my thought. .

The people who attend Messianic congregations are a mixture of those from a Christian background and people from a Jewish background who believe the Messiah has already come. Some of these would refer to themselves as Christians, others would not. It would depend on the individual. and the answer would be as varied as the individual and their own background. But the website I mentioned above explains it from a Messianic Jewish perspective.

So are they Trinitarians? Unitarians? Modalist? Arians? What is their theology of God? How do they baptize?

 

[7_Sorrows]

Here’s the website from the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, which was founded in 1915. mjaa.org/messianic-movement/ and they discuss this question.

(There’s also a ‘Messianic Jewish Alliance of Israel.’)

I was involved with Messianic Judaism for many years. Each congregation of Messianic Jews would be different from another, usually depending on the background of the leader. One congregation I went to, the leader was a Rabbi from an Orthodox background. When he came to believe in Y’shua as the Messiah, he remained an ordained Rabbi, but started a Messianic Congregation. It was neither Evangelical, nor patterned after a Christian Church, but was just like attending a synagogue–except for the belief in Y’shua.

Other leaders are from various backgrounds in Judaism and became ordained through a Christian denomination and set up congregations as varied as their backgrounds. I would assume though, that as the movement grows, it may become recognized within itself and set up an ordination if its own through its own educational programs and requirements, but that’s just my thought. .

The people who attend Messianic congregations are a mixture of those from a Christian background and people from a Jewish background who believe the Messiah has already come. Some of these would refer to themselves as Christians, others would not. It would depend on the individual. and the answer would be as varied as the individual and their own background. But the website I mentioned above explains it from a Messianic Jewish perspective.

Interesting thanks for the info and link.

 

[jeannetherese]

Some “Messianic Jews” are not even Jewish of blood. Such congregations (though they would angrily deny it) are Christian, full stop.

Whether they have the blood or not, Messianics are not accepted by Judaism as Jewish, (the principle being that belief in the teaching of another religion, i.e. Christianity, implies deconversion) and e.g. cannot immigrate to Israel as Jews. Messianics living in Israel have in the past been discriminated against.

ICXC NIKA

GEddie, are you sure that a Messianic Jew who is able to claim Jewish descent through his or her mother would be denied ‘right of return’ to Israel based upon his or her faith?
My understanding was that one might be considered Jewish by descent and/or by faith and that right of return applied in either situation.
May God bless you and all who visit this thread.
Amen.