Are Messianic Jews considered Christians?

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if one needs an authority that has a real rather than theoretical impact then the State of Israel is one. Its supreme court ruled that Messianic Jews are not Jews and are ineligible for immigration under the Law of Return unless they can prove eligible Jewish ancestry.
 
Kaninchen said:
Should Jews decide who are Jews or should Christians decide who are Jews?
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Are Jews unified on what makes someone Jewish? I’m just curious if there are more views than one and if there is one common view, what is it?
 
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Where is the sense of a post being deleted as ‘offensive’ or whatever when it still exists as a quote in somebody else’s post?
 
It seems the answer is “both”. Jewish and Christian are not mutually exclusive. Jewish atheists, Jewish Buddhists and the like are not uncommon.
 
My question was theological. I wasn’t specifically focused on any ethnic or political concerns.
 
Mike1w said:
My question was theological. I wasn’t specifically focused on any ethnic or political concerns.
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Well, as you can tell, the answer rather depends on just whom you are asking.
 
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Late conservative rabbi Jacob Neusner said “Jews who practice Christianity cease to be part of the ethnic Jewish community, while those who practice Buddhism remain within.”

Look, most modern Christians see the Jews as the ancient religion of Israel. The spiritual descent of the ancient Israelites that didn’t accept Jesus as Messiah. As if Jews had been stuck in the Old Testament. If this were true, it would be possible to be Jew and Christian at the same time. For example, James the Just, practiced the religion of the Old Testament thoroughly while being one of the first Christian leaders.

In reality, modern Judaism is a new religion founded in the first centuries of the Christian era. Its base is not the Old Testament but the Talmud, a book of commentaries that replaces the Mosaic law in the Old Testament (which was unable to be applied after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, since the Mosaic law required a Temple). You can know more about Judaism in this article, written by a Jew.

For example, traditionally religious Jews pay little attention to most of the Old Testament, and even very learned rabbis or students who have devoted many years to intensive study may remain largely ignorant of its contents. Instead, the center of their religious world view is the Talmud, an enormously large, complex, and somewhat contradictory mass of secondary writings and commentary built up over many centuries, which is why their religious doctrine is sometimes called “Talmudic Judaism.” Among large portions of the faithful, the Talmud is supplemented by the Kabala, another large collection of accumulated writings, mostly focused on mysticism and all sorts of magic.
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This new Talmudic religion is anti-Christian. I don’t know how to put this in a non-harsh way and I don’t mean to offend anybody. Talmudic Judaism was born as a reaction against Christianity, to which most Jews had converted (especially in the diaspora, see the work of Rodney Stark about the growth of early Christianity). It was necessary for it to protect against the assimilation of Christianity, which had become dominant in the late Roman Empire.
Whereas pious Muslims consider Jesus as the holy prophet of God and Muhammed’s immediate predecessor, according to the Jewish Talmud, Jesus is perhaps the vilest being who ever lived, condemned to spend eternity in the bottommost pit of Hell, immersed in a boiling vat of excrement.
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Religious Jews regard the Muslim Quran as just another book, though a totally mistaken one, but the Christian Bible represents purest evil, and if circumstances permit, burning Bibles is a very praiseworthy act.
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Pious Jews are also enjoined to always spit three times at any cross or church they encounter, and direct a curse at all Christian cemeteries. Indeed, many deeply religious Jews utter a prayer each and every day for the immediate extermination of all Christians.
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Look, I am not attacking the Jews (most Jews don’t know their religion that well). I only say that their religion excludes Christianity. This is why Messianic Jews are (Protestant) Christians and not Jews.
 
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nadieteescribe said:
Pious Jews are also enjoined to always spit three times at any cross or church they encounter, and direct a curse at all Christian cemeteries. Indeed, many deeply religious Jews utter a prayer each and every day for the immediate extermination of all Christians.
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Makes me wonder if this was the reasoning behind the Haredi spitting attacks in the Old City against Christian clerics some years ago. I wonder if the Israeli Police have gotten this under control. The top results from Google date back to 2011.

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Mike1w said:
Usually, protestant churches are considered those that specifically formed during the reformation in “protest” over errors, both real and imagined, inside Latin Catholic Hierarchy
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Well, not really factual. The term " protestant was kind of derogatory to those who protested against revocation of a past agreement that allowed freedom for Lutberans per say to freely excercise their conscience. Another they “protested” or walked out of church/ government
meeting once they learned their freedom was being revoked.

So twas not about doctrine but freedom (choice) taken away per say that was " protested".
 
mcq72 said:
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Mike1w:
Usually, protestant churches are considered those that specifically formed during the reformation in “protest” over errors, both real and imagined, inside Latin Catholic Hierarchy
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Well, not really factual. The term " protestant was kind of derogatory to those who protested against revocation of a past agreement that allowed freedom for Lutberans per say to freely excercise their conscience. Another they “protested” or walked out of church/ government
meeting once they learned their freedom was being revoked.

So twas not about doctrine but freedom (choice) taken away per say that was " protested".
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In the end, this seems like 2 different ways of saying the same exact thing.

Peace!!!
 
That is an interesting question because it seems to depend on who you ask and what people view as Christian.
One of the primary sources of discussion is Paul in teasing out answers.
Their beliefs involving Paul’s ideas about JUSTIFICATION seem to depart greatly from Protestants. So they are not really Protestants I think.
Some of them identify themselves as SECOND TEMPLE Jews. Which leaves their biggest conflicts with more traditional Jews.
Paul tried to reconcile Judaism with Christ Jesus and they seem to incorporate some of Paul’s ideas in this regard, but the structure in Judaism, which basically segregates people into Jews and Gentiles remains a potential argument that they are not CHRISTIAN in the Catholic sense, or Jewish sense, or both… Paul’s idea is very much a definition identifying Christians as existing EN CHRISTU. ( Of course it is arguable that En CHRISTU in the broader sense is “reality” some recognise that no one can avoid and some do not view En CHRISTU this expansively. Yet! )
Using the syntax of the late Al Kiner, they are a " TWEENER" it seems if you want to look broadly. Which we generally do even when self identified " Christians" follow ideas we consider heterodox or heresy. They follow some idea of Trinity I think, which is a departure from Judaism according to Jews ( interestingly we might say it was in the OT the whole time, just undeveloped yet revelation made clear and revealed via Jesus Christ. )
I do recall Jesus saying his ministry, while alive, was only for the Jews. It was the dead and resurrected Christ Jesus who the Apostles are directed to preach to everyone who hungers. But they say they follow the Gospels I believe, so how can they avoid the " endings."
 
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adf417 said:
In the end, this seems like 2 different ways of saying the same exact thing.
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Especially if the church/state is against freedom of religion/choice/ teaching as a doctrine/ practice, as they were at that time.
 
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Messianic Jews are Jews who have become Christians but still observe their Jewish culture and traditions.
 
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