Are miracles possible or impossible?

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jesus is also man. and “i said this for the benefit of the people standing here” could (and does, i think) mean something like “i said this out loud for the benefit of those people standing here”, rather than “lazarus would have arisen no matter what i said or did.”

basically, the clear implication of the event is that lazarus was revivified through the action of god at the request of jesus, as an example not only of the special relationship between god and jesus, but also of the power of supplicatory prayer.
Then you think Jesus was not God incarnate but just a prophet?
i’m not sure what the creeds have to do with the historicity of any events in the new testament (they’re expressions of dogmas, not chronologies), but that said, i was using the event as an example - if it never happened, then substitute with any other of the NT miracles: the point remains the same.
A creed is a statement of belief, and no creed I know of states belief in the historicity of any miracles except that God became flesh and Christ is risen.
 
Then you think Jesus was not God incarnate but just a prophet?
no.
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inocente:
A creed is a statement of belief, and no creed I know of states belief in the historicity of any miracles except that God became flesh and Christ is risen.
sure, but none of the creeds are a statement of every belief.

that said, i myself have no opinion as to the historicity of any specific miracle-account in the NT.
 
Only according to some on this thread, there’s no requirement for a miracle to be inexplicable when using the normal definition of “a very surprising and unexpected event”.
The primary definition of a miracle is a supernatural, scientifically inexplicable event:
An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
  • Oxford Dictionary
An event that is contrary to the established laws of nature and attributed to a supernatural cause.
  • Collins Dictionary
An extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs.
  • Merriam-Webster
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.
  • The free dictionary
A miracle is an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature and consequently attributed to a supernatural, especially divine, agency.
  • wikipedia
So do God, Vishnu and the Buddha all independently make miracles for their own supporters, or does just God exist, and He happily makes miracles to sustain belief in Vishnu and the Buddha, or … ?
Only a parochial view of the Creator restricts miracles to one religion or their purpose to sustaining belief in that religion…
 
The primary definition of a miracle is a supernatural, scientifically inexplicable event:
  • Oxford Dictionary
  • Collins Dictionary
  • Merriam-Webster
  • The free dictionary
  • wikipedia
Only a parochial view of the Creator restricts miracles to one religion or their purpose to sustaining belief in that religion…
Anyone who’s trying to use God to explain the things that science can’t explain in the 21st century, is a fool because who knows what science is going to explain in the 23rd century? That’s called the God of the gaps. In fact, it’s the fastest route to atheism because if your belief in God is the God who can explain why something happens, and then science comes along with an explanation, “Oops. Suddenly, I don’t believe in that God anymore.” - Brother Guy J. Consolmagno, SJ, Vatican Observatory
 
Anyone who’s trying to use God to explain the things that science can’t explain in the 21st century, is a fool because who knows what science is going to explain in the 23rd century? That’s called the God of the gaps. In fact, it’s the fastest route to atheism because if your belief in God is the God who can explain why something happens, and then science comes along with an explanation, “Oops. Suddenly, I don’t believe in that God anymore.” - Brother Guy J. Consolmagno, SJ, Vatican Observatory
Anyone who thinks science will explain everything by the 23rd century is a fool because we all know what science isn’t going to explain in the 23rd century. That’s called not only science of the gaps but materialism. In fact, it’s the fastest route to atheism because if you believe science can explain why everything happens, and then science comes along with an explanation of something, “Aha, I told you God doesn’t exist!”
 
Anyone who thinks science will explain everything by the 23rd century is a fool because we all know what science isn’t going to explain in the 23rd century. That’s called not only science of the gaps but materialism. In fact, it’s the fastest route to atheism because if you believe science can explain why everything happens, and then science comes along with an explanation of something, “Aha, I told you God doesn’t exist!”
You are making the same argument as Guy Consolmagno - put your faith in a god of the gaps and sooner or later science with destroy your faith.

…how wrong it is to use God as a stop-gap for the incompleteness of our knowledge. If in fact the frontiers of knowledge are being pushed further and further back (and that is bound to be the case), then God is being pushed back with them, and is therefore continually in retreat. We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don’t know. - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
 
Anyone who thinks science will explain everything by the 23rd century is a fool because we all know what science isn’t going to explain in the 23rd century. That’s called not only science of the gaps but materialism. In fact, it’s the fastest route to atheism because if you believe science can explain why everything happens, and then science comes along with an explanation of something, “Aha, I told you God doesn’t exist!”
Invalid deduction. I believe not only in the Creator of the foundations but also the loving Father who constantly intervenes and cares for all His creatures - unlike the deist who rejects miracles/answers to prayer and believes in a remote deity who is unconcerned about what happens on this insignificant planet.
 
This is really a question for non-believers, obviously. Are miracles possible? Why or why not?
Conceptually possible, sure. The trick would be in verifying a miracle empirically and in knowing for certain that it was, in fact, a miracle.

For example, regarding the issue of miracle healings, there are multiple possibilities, of which I don’t think that any one possibility can be privileged with absolute certainty. Faith has to play some part, if one would decide between them.

Example:

–a woman prays to John Paul II one evening and finds herself inexplicably healed

If one takes it seriously enough to say that, yes, her healing is inexplicable, there are still a few possible explanations, including:

–the fact that our own scientific or medical knowledge is insufficient to explain the phenomenon, does not tell us with absolute certainty that a miracle occurred (to say otherwise would be a “miracle of the gaps” argument)

–it’s unclear whether the mind itself has powers we are not aware of; the fact that she had passionate belief in the holiness of John Paul II, and his ability to intercede with the divine on her behalf, may have played the decisive role in her healing. This could support partisans of parapsychology and the notion that 99% of our brains remain used; if we could “tap” the inner potentialities of the mind, they say, our notions of what is possible and impossible would be transformed. This would be a “faith that moves mountains” example, but – rather than pointing to an external divine power – would point rather to the latent, dormant capabilities of the human psyche.

Indeed, this “internal versus external” dynamic would be hard to differentiate with absolute certainty. If the fact of her healing was completely external – and all she had to do was ask – she theoretically could have prayed to any other saint, or to God directly, and could have gotten the same results. Yet she was passionately devoted to the memory of John Paul II in particular, which undoubtedly gave her prayers to him a certain emotional intensity that that they may not have had, with any other figure. So was her prayer more effective, more powerful, because she choose an individual with whom she felt such powerful emotional resonance? Again, this blurs the distinction between what she contributed to her own healing, and to what God or John Paul II contributed.

A final explanation, which as a non-Catholic I cannot exclude as a possibility – John Paul II had nothing to do with her healing, either in a direct sense or an indirect sense (through intercession with a higher power), yet some higher power heard her prayed and took compassion on her. In other words, the fact that it was “misdirected” did not preclude the fact that, in compassion, a higher power heard her prayer and answered it.

This is exactly what a Christian could conceive happening, when a pagan prays. That pagan may have “invincible ignorance” regarding God, Mary, and the saints. Yet they are praying to some higher power – perhaps it was Isis, the Divine Mother – with all their heart and all their soul. Because they are ignorant, through no fault of their own, such God as actually exists (who created them, and loves them) could have taken pity on them, reasoning, “their prayers were really directed towards me – and to the Blessed Mother – even though they do not realize it. In praying to Isis – the divine Mother – they were really praying to me, however poor and unschooled their understanding.”

In fact, I know of a Seventh Day Adventist who feels confirmed in his faith because he knows his prayers have been answered. A Catholic could say: A. we don’t know if your prayers were actually answered, even though you’re convinced they are and B. even if they were answered, that does not mean that SDA is true, just that a compassionate God considers you his child in spite of your religious affiliation (though it does raise the question of whether God would ever refrain from answering his prayer, hoping that he thereby comes to the realization that the faith he has chosen is not the right one).

So I see multiple possibilities here, and I don’t see reason alone as being able to arbiter between them. As I see it, there has to be faith.

P.S. I’ve forgotten about the final explanation, which is proposed by certain Protestants – namely, that these miracles are actually the work of Satan.

This is a pretty mean-spirited explanation, at bottom (on the part of Protestants who are hostile to Catholicism), yet I’ve also heard Christians say that many occult miracles – such trance channeling, the “miraculous” workings of a Ouija board – although supernatural in origin, are nonetheless demonic in nature. Obviously, when Jesus performed his own miracles, this is precisely what many of his interlocuters used as an explanation, that he was channeling the power of demonic forces.
 
Invalid deduction. I believe not only in the Creator of the foundations but also the loving Father who constantly intervenes and cares for all His creatures - unlike the deist who rejects miracles/answers to prayer and believes in a remote deity who is unconcerned about what happens on this insignificant planet.
Bonhoeffer was a pastor and theologian (and executed by the Gestapo), and Consolmagno is a Jesuit. Calling them deists would certainly be an invalid deduction.
 
Invalid deduction. I believe not only in the Creator of the foundations but also the loving Father who constantly intervenes and cares for all His creatures - unlike the deist who rejects miracles/answers to prayer and believes in a remote deity who is unconcerned about what happens on this insignificant planet.
A blatant non sequitur. Do you have any evidence that they have rejected the belief that God is a loving Father who constantly intervenes and cares for all His creatures - and have rejected miracles/answers to prayer?
 
Tonyrey and inocente,

Isn’t there a problem with the meaning of “deist”, as conventionally understood? Even supposing God does not “intervene” in time (aside from the Incarnation), but rather put in place inscrutable laws that create miracles, this does not seem like a watchmaker God. To plan out an intervention in advance, and set the intervention in motion, is to intervene – even if there was never a time when this intervention was not happening.
 
Tonyrey and inocente,

Isn’t there a problem with the meaning of “deist”, as conventionally understood? Even supposing God does not “intervene” in time (aside from the Incarnation), but rather put in place inscrutable laws that create miracles, this does not seem like a watchmaker God. To plan out an intervention in advance, and set the intervention in motion, is to intervene – even if there was never a time when this intervention was not happening.
There is a problem with the idea that there are " inscrutable laws that create miracles". It doesn’t seem to tally with Christ’s teaching that God answers our prayers but removes Him from the scene altogether! 🙂
 
A blatant non sequitur. Do you have any evidence that they have rejected the belief that God is a loving Father who constantly intervenes and cares for all His creatures - and have rejected miracles/answers to prayer?
If it didn’t follow that you were calling Bonhoeffer and Consolmagno deists then your raising deism in post #90 is a blatant non sequitur.

And your question is a false dilemma, the evidence is in the quotes.

Which gives me the opportunity to repeat them:

*Anyone who’s trying to use God to explain the things that science can’t explain in the 21st century, is a fool because who knows what science is going to explain in the 23rd century? That’s called the God of the gaps. In fact, it’s the fastest route to atheism because if your belief in God is the God who can explain why something happens, and then science comes along with an explanation, “Oops. Suddenly, I don’t believe in that God anymore.” - Brother Guy J. Consolmagno, SJ, Vatican Observatory

…how wrong it is to use God as a stop-gap for the incompleteness of our knowledge. If in fact the frontiers of knowledge are being pushed further and further back (and that is bound to be the case), then God is being pushed back with them, and is therefore continually in retreat. We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don’t know. - Dietrich Bonhoeffer*
 
Tonyrey and inocente,

Isn’t there a problem with the meaning of “deist”, as conventionally understood? Even supposing God does not “intervene” in time (aside from the Incarnation), but rather put in place inscrutable laws that create miracles, this does not seem like a watchmaker God. To plan out an intervention in advance, and set the intervention in motion, is to intervene – even if there was never a time when this intervention was not happening.
Monsignor Georges Lemaître, whose Primeval Atom hypothesis became known as the big bang theory, believed that if there is no evidence of God even where we would most expect to see it, at the very beginning, then belief that God intervenes is shown to be false:

For the believer, it [his theory] removes any attempt at familiarity with God, as were Laplace’s “flick” or Jean’s “finger [of God agitating the ether]” consonant, it is consonant with the wording of Isaiah’s speaking of a “Hidden God,” hidden even in the beginning of creation.
 
There is a problem with the idea that there are " inscrutable laws that create miracles". It doesn’t seem to tally with Christ’s teaching that God answers our prayers but removes Him from the scene altogether! 🙂
No, it doesn’t. He’s the author of the scene. The author of a scene is never removed from a scene.
 
Monsignor Georges Lemaître, whose Primeval Atom hypothesis became known as the big bang theory, believed that if there is no evidence of God even where we would most expect to see it, at the very beginning, then belief that God intervenes is shown to be false:

For the believer, it [his theory] removes any attempt at familiarity with God, as were Laplace’s “flick” or Jean’s “finger [of God agitating the ether]” consonant, it is consonant with the wording of Isaiah’s speaking of a “Hidden God,” hidden even in the beginning of creation.
I must be missing something, but I don’t see how this connects with my comment. Personally, I’m not even sure what “evidence of God at the beginning” would be, unless such evidence was so strong as to remove all doubt and make faith impossible.
 
I must be missing something, but I don’t see how this connects with my comment. Personally, I’m not even sure what “evidence of God at the beginning” would be, unless such evidence was so strong as to remove all doubt and make faith impossible.
I quoted Lemaitre to show there are theists who don’t believe God intervenes. He believed in revelation and in Christ, not in an absent or disinterested deity.

I think Lemaitre thought that as the Creator left no sign of His existence even in the moment of creation, the point where we might most expect to see a big sign that the Creator exists, we shouldn’t be surprised to not find it anywhere else either.

Personally I don’t believe in “inscrutable laws that create miracles” as that sounds too close to deception or magic.
 
I quoted Lemaitre to show there are theists who don’t believe God intervenes. He believed in revelation and in Christ, not in an absent or disinterested deity.
Oh, got it. I agree with Lemaitre, then.
Personally I don’t believe in “inscrutable laws that create miracles” as that sounds too close to deception or magic.
Why? If I make a computer program, and the computer program has certain quirks that manifest themselves in the gameplay, does this sound like deception or magic?
 
Why? If I make a computer program, and the computer program has certain quirks that manifest themselves in the gameplay, does this sound like deception or magic?
God is perfect though. Wouldn’t quirks in nature be like quantum physics, unexpected but knowable and orderly?
 
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