Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

[ricko]

The Mormons claim to have actual Apostles in their church but do they really?

Apostle James Talmage said that men who are commissioned by the authority of heaven
“will not be lacking in proofs of their divine commission.… These [spiritual gifts] are
oftentimes exhibited in a manner so different from the usual order of things as to be called
miraculous and supernatural.… We may safely regard the existence of these spiritual
powers as one of the essential characteristics of the Church; where they are not, the Priesthood of God does not operate” (Articles of Faith, p. 217).

Talmage also said:

In the present day,
the dispensation of the fulness of times, this power (the gift of healing) is possessed in the [LDS] Church and
its manifestation is of frequent occurrence among the Latter-day Saints. Thousand of
recipients can testify to the fulfillment of the Lord’s promise, that if His servants lay hands on the sick they shall recover.

*In addition to healing, the Apostles could also raise the dead. If this Apostolic power of healing is possessed by the LDS where is the evidence of it? Where are the reports of miraculous healings, the lame walking, the blind seeing and others? *

The explanation is that the LDS Apostles cannot do these things because they are not Apostles and do not possess the power of Apostles.

 

[Mannyfit75]

they are false and have no validity as the successors of the Apostles.

 

[Religio71]

The Mormons claim to have actual Apostles in their church but do they really?

Apostle James Talmage said that men who are commissioned by the authority of heaven
“will not be lacking in proofs of their divine commission.… These [spiritual gifts] are
oftentimes exhibited in a manner so different from the usual order of things as to be called
miraculous and supernatural.… We may safely regard the existence of these spiritual
powers as one of the essential characteristics of the Church; where they are not, the Priesthood of God does not operate” (Articles of Faith, p. 217).

Talmage also said:

In the present day,
the dispensation of the fulness of times, this power (the gift of healing) is possessed in the [LDS] Church and
its manifestation is of frequent occurrence among the Latter-day Saints. Thousand of
recipients can testify to the fulfillment of the Lord’s promise, that if His servants lay hands on the sick they shall recover.

*In addition to healing, the Apostles could also raise the dead. If this Apostolic power of healing is possessed by the LDS where is the evidence of it? Where are the reports of miraculous healings, the lame walking, the blind seeing and others? *

The explanation is that the LDS Apostles cannot do these things because they are not Apostles and do not possess the power of Apostles.

Mormon apostles are not like biblical apostles

 

[ricko]

Mormon apostles are not like biblical apostles

Your Apostle Talmage says different.

I like your response better as it is closer to the truth. You’re right. They are not like the true Apostles. They have no authority or power that the original Apostles had. They have simply assumed (wrongly) the title of Apostle

 

[Religio71]

Your Apostle Talmage says different.

I like your response better as it is closer to the truth. You’re right. They are not like the true Apostles. They have no authority or power that the original Apostles had. They have simply assumed (wrongly) the title of Apostle

I agree.

Btw, he is not “my” apostle. I am not LDS.

 

[ParkerD]

The Mormons claim to have actual Apostles in their church but do they really?

Apostle James Talmage said that men who are commissioned by the authority of heaven
“will not be lacking in proofs of their divine commission.… These [spiritual gifts] are
oftentimes exhibited in a manner so different from the usual order of things as to be called
miraculous and supernatural.… We may safely regard the existence of these spiritual
powers as one of the essential characteristics of the Church; where they are not, the Priesthood of God does not operate” (Articles of Faith, p. 217).

Talmage also said:

In the present day,
the dispensation of the fulness of times, this power (the gift of healing) is possessed in the [LDS] Church and
its manifestation is of frequent occurrence among the Latter-day Saints. Thousand of
recipients can testify to the fulfillment of the Lord’s promise, that if His servants lay hands on the sick they shall recover.

*In addition to healing, the Apostles could also raise the dead. If this Apostolic power of healing is possessed by the LDS where is the evidence of it? Where are the reports of miraculous healings, the lame walking, the blind seeing and others? *

The explanation is that the LDS Apostles cannot do these things because they are not Apostles and do not possess the power of Apostles.

Rick,
Those kinds of miracles have happened in the modern age, occasionally, and I have heard of some of the experiences. I could cite a few examples when I had the time to look them up. But they are not written up in newspapers. I’m glad they’re not.

 

[ricko]

Rick,
Those kinds of miracles have happened in the modern age, occasionally, and I have heard of some of the experiences. I could cite a few examples when I had the time to look them up. But they are not written up in newspapers. I’m glad they’re not.

Sorry Religio, I just now saw that you WERE LDS.

Parker, let’s have some articles about the miracles if you would, even if from only Mormon sources.

Why are they not written up in newspapers and why does that make you happy? Everyone saw Jesus and the Apostles do their miracles. They were all public. Does the LDS have a problem with that?

 

[Jesus_123]

**+ I posted this on another thread . . . thought it might help here . . . **

• … I was raised as a child in the heart of “Mormon” country here in the United States … Though I knew many Mormons as friends in school and our neighborhood . . . their belief system is known to Catholics and Protestants alike essentially as a CULT . . . and it is an immensely large one . . . and their understandings, definitions and usage of the same religious and scriptural words are RADICALLY different . . .

Definition:

 

[ricko]

Well I don’t believe that they have Apostles or prophets. They can call them by those titles but that does not make them so. They don’t have any powers that the Apostles had. As far as revelations go, anyone can say that they have had a revelation but you can’t prove or disprove it.

If their apostles are gifted then why doesn’t one of them interpert the fragment of the BOA instead of sending it off to be studied?

Now Parker is coming back with some miracles but I am sure there will be no evidence just witnesses. Unlike the Catholic Church has doctors from all faiths and none to examine any miracles from Lourdes. Everything is open and above board. I don’t think I will see that with any Mormon miracles. It will probably be, you don’t have faith so you won’t believe it anyway or you have to be a Mormon to believe or you ask for a sign and it won’t be given, etc.

 

[ParkerD]

Sorry Religio, I just now saw that you WERE LDS.

Parker, let’s have some articles about the miracles if you would, even if from only Mormon sources.

Why are they not written up in newspapers and why does that make you happy? Everyone saw Jesus and the Apostles do their miracles. They were all public. Does the LDS have a problem with that?

Rick,
When Christ raised Lazarus from the dead, many Jews didn’t believe that it had happened. He also didn’t call in a crowd of people to witness the healing in the case of Lazarus. I’ll look up some sources for some of the experiences I have heard (not seen personally).

 

[ParkerD]

Sorry Religio, I just now saw that you WERE LDS.

Parker, let’s have some articles about the miracles if you would, even if from only Mormon sources.

Why are they not written up in newspapers and why does that make you happy? Everyone saw Jesus and the Apostles do their miracles. They were all public. Does the LDS have a problem with that?

Rick,
Here is one, as recorded by Wilford Woodruff who kept a very detailed journal:

22 July 1839

(Wilford Woodruff): "On the morning of the 22nd of July, 1839, [the Prophet] arose reflecting upon the situation of the Saints of God in their persecutions and afflictions. He called upon the Lord in prayer, and the power of God rested mightily upon him. And as Jesus healed all the sick around Him in His day, so Joseph, the Prophet of God, healed all around on this occasion. He healed all in his house and dooryard, then, in company with Sidney Rigdon and several of the Twelve, he went through among the sick lying on the bank of the river, and he commanded them in a loud voice, in the name of Jesus Christ, to come up and be made whole, and they were all healed.

When he healed all that were sick on the east side of the river, they crossed the Mississippi River to Montrose, where we were. The first house they went into was President Brigham Young’s. He was sick on his bed at the time. The Prophet went into his house and healed him, and they all came out together. As they were passing by my door, Brother Joseph said, “Brother Woodruff, follow me.”

These were the only words spoken by any of the company from the time they left Brother Brigham’s house till we crossed the public square and entered Brother Elijah Fordham’s house. Brother Fordham had been dying for an hour, and we expected each minute would be his last.

I felt the power of God that was overwhelming His prophet. When we entered the house, Brother Joseph walked up to Brother Fordham and took him by the right hand; in his left hand he held his hat.

He saw that Brother Fordham’s eyes were glazed, and that he was speechless and unconscious.

After taking hold of his hand, the Prophet looked down into the dying man’s face and said, “Brother Fordham, do you not know me?”

At first he made no reply; but we could all see the effect of the Spirit of God resting upon him.

Joseph again said, “Elijah, do you not know me?”

With a low whisper, Brother Fordham answered, “Yes.”

The Prophet then said, “Have you not faith to be healed?”

The answer, which was a little plainer than before, was, “I am afraid it is too late. If you had come sooner, I think I might have been.”

He had the appearance of a man waking from sleep. It was the sleep of death.

Joseph then said, “Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ?”

“I do, Brother Joseph,” was the response.

Then the Prophet of God spoke with a loud voice, as in the majesty of the Godhead, “Elijah, I command you, in the name of Jesus of Nazareth, to arise and be made whole!”

The words of the Prophet were not like the words of man, but like the voice of God. It seemed to me that the house shook from its foundation. Elijah Fordham leaped from his bed like a man raised from the dead. A healthy color came to his face, and life was manifested in every act. His feet were done up in Indian-meal poultices. He kicked them off his feet, scattered the contents, then called for his clothes and put them on. He asked for a bowl of bread and milk and ate it. Then he put on his hat and followed us into the street to visit others who were sick.

As soon as we left Brother Fordham’s house, we went into the house of Joseph B. Noble, who was very low and dangerously sick. When we entered the house, Brother Joseph took him by the hand, and commanded him, in the name of Jesus Christ, to arise and be made whole. He did arise and was immediately healed."

 

[ricko]

Interesting story. Thanks for the post.

Now, there are some things I must say about that story in an objective way.

First of all is “the sick lying on the bank of the river”. I find the number of sick to be at least 5 or more. The wording sounds like many. Also find it strange they are lying on the bank of the river.

“He healed all in his house and dooryard,” Sounds like everybody in his house was sick. Not only that but he had sick people in his yard! Looks like anywhere from 12 to more than 20 people were sick all at the same time and all within walking distance.

Too far fetched for anyone except a Mormon to believe. Got any happenings that are closer to our time period?

 

[Holly3278]

I would also like to add this Bible verse to the conversation:

(Matthew 24:24 RSV) For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

 

[Tomster]

I would also like to add this Bible verse to the conversation:

(Matthew 24:24 RSV) For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

And since Mormonism did not come onto the scene until 1830, so much for Mormonism.

 

[bpbasilphx]

St. Paul prophecied about the Mormonoid Apostles here:

2 Corinthians 11:13
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

 

[ParkerD]

Interesting story. Thanks for the post.

Now, there are some things I must say about that story in an objective way.

First of all is “the sick lying on the bank of the river”. I find the number of sick to be at least 5 or more. The wording sounds like many. Also find it strange they are lying on the bank of the river.

“He healed all in his house and dooryard,” Sounds like everybody in his house was sick. Not only that but he had sick people in his yard! Looks like anywhere from 12 to more than 20 people were sick all at the same time and all within walking distance.

Too far fetched for anyone except a Mormon to believe. Got any happenings that are closer to our time period?

Rick,
I should have added more to that excerpt. The Mormons had been driven from their homes, and were in tents or temporary cabins.

Here is another example:

"On 11 October 1945, shortly after his return to Salt Lake City, Elder Cowley was ordained a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The following is an excerpt from an address he gave to the Brigham Young University student body on 18 February 1953. Elder Cowley died later that year on 13 December.

I can bear witness to you … that God can work through His priesthood and that He does work through it. I know that without any question of doubt. I’ve had too many experiences. I’m an expert witness about these things. …

Now, except [you] believe as a child, you can’t receive these blessings. [You] have to have the faith of a child in order to believe in these things, especially when you reach college age and your minds are so full of skepticism and doubt. I guess there are some things that you should doubt, but you can become as little children in these things. Miracles are commonplace, brothers and sisters. …

I’ve learned a lot from [the people of the Pacific islands. They] … live close to God. They have some kind of power. I guess it is just because they accept miracles as a matter of course. They never doubt anything. …

Remember, we have great opportunities, great opportunities to bless. Sometimes I wonder if we do enough in our administration of the sick. You know when the disciples tried to cast out a dumb spirit they couldn’t do it, or they didn’t do it. The Master came along, and he immediately cast out the dumb spirit. Then the disciples said, “Why could not we cast him out?” And what did Christ say? This kind cometh not out save by fasting and by prayer (see Matt. 17:21). Sometimes we rush in, administer to a person, rush out and say, “Well, he won’t make it. I know he won’t.” Of course, we have to go immediately in case of an emergency. Sometimes I wonder, if we have a little time, if we shouldn’t do a little fasting. …

A little over a year ago a couple came into my office carrying a little boy. The father said to me: “My wife and I have been fasting for two days, and we’ve brought our little boy up for a blessing. You are the one we’ve been sent to.” I said, “What’s the matter with him?” They said he was born blind, deaf, and dumb, no coordination of his muscles, couldn’t even crawl at the age of five years. I said to myself, “This is it. This kind cometh not out save by fasting and by prayer.” I had implicit faith in the fasting and the prayers of those parents. I blessed that child, and a few weeks later I received a letter: “Brother Cowley, we wish you could see our little boy now. He’s crawling. When we throw a ball across the floor he races after it on his hands and knees. He can see. When we clap our hands over his head he jumps. He can hear.” Medical science had laid the burden down. God had taken over. The little boy was rapidly recovering or really getting what he’d never had. …

I went into a hospital one day in New Zealand to bless a woman who didn’t belong to the Church. She was dying. We all knew she was dying. The doctor even said so. She was having her farewell party. Ah, that’s one thing I like about the [Maoris]. When you go, they give you a farewell party. They all gather around. They send messages over to the other side. “When you get over there tell my mother I’m trying to do my best; I’m not so good, but I’m trying.” “Tell her to have a good room fixed for me when I get over there and plenty of fish, good meals.” My, it’s wonderful how they send you off. There they were, all gathered around this poor sister. She was about to be confined, and the doctor told her it would kill her. She was tubercular from head to foot.

I had with me an old [Maori man], almost 90. [The dying woman] was his niece. He stood up at the head of the bed, and he said, “Vera, you’re dead. You’re dead because the doctor says you’re dead. You’re on your way out. I’ve been to you, your home and your people—my relatives. I’m the only one that joined the Church. None of you has ever listened to me. You’re dead now, [but] you’re going to live.” He turned to me and said, “Is it all right if we kneel down and pray?” I said, “Yes.” So we knelt down, … and after the prayer we blessed her. The last time I was in New Zealand she was physically well from head to foot and had had her fifth child."

 

[ParkerD]

Rick,
More from the same talk by Matthew Cowley:

in a little village in New Zealand one day. There the Relief Society sisters were preparing the body of one of our Saints. They had placed his body in front of the big house, as they call it, the house where the people come to wail and weep and mourn over the dead, when in rushed the dead man’s brother. He said, “Administer to him.” And the young [Maoris] said, “Why, you shouldn’t do that; he’s dead.” “You do it!”

This same old man that I had with me when his niece was so ill was there. The [dead man’s brother] got down on his knees, and he anointed this man. Then this great old sage got down and blessed him and commanded him to rise. You should have seen the Relief Society sisters scatter. He sat up and said, “Send for the elders; I don’t feel very well.” Of course, all of that was just psychological effect on that dead man. Wonderful, isn’t it—this psychological effect business? We told him he had just been administered to, and he said, “Oh, that was it.” He said, “I was dead. I could feel life coming back into me just like a blanket unrolling.” He outlived the brother that came in and told us to administer to him.

I’ve told the story about the little baby, nine months old, who was born blind. The father came up with him one Sunday and said, “Brother Cowley, our baby hasn’t been blessed yet. We’d like you to bless him.” …

I said, “All right, what’s the name?” So he told me the name, and I was just going to start when he said, “By the way, give him his vision when you give him a name. He was born blind.” It shocked me, but then I said to myself, why not? … I had faith in that father’s faith. After I gave that child [his] name, I finally got around to giving [him his] vision. That boy is about 12 years old now. The last time I was back there I was afraid to inquire about him. I was sure he had gone blind again. That’s the way my faith works sometimes. So I asked the branch president about him. And he said: “Brother Cowley, the worst thing you ever did was to bless that child to receive his vision. He’s the meanest kid in this neighborhood, always getting into mischief.” Boy, I was thrilled about that kid getting into mischief! …

God does have control of all of these elements. You and I can reach out, and if it’s His will, we can bring those elements under our control for His purposes.

 

[ricko]

Jeanne Fretel
Visited Lourdes: 10 May 1948.

Age 31, a student nurse from Rennes, France. Tubercular peritonitis with complications for seven years, extreme emaciation and oscillating fever. Comatose when brought to Lourdes, was given a tiny fragment of the Eucharist and awoke. Reported being “instantly and permanently cured” later that night while lying in her wheelchair beside the spring. She had not yet bathed in or drunk the water. Her cure was recognised officially on 11 November 1950.

Marie Bigot
Visited Lourdes: 8 October 1953 and 10 October 1954.

Age 32, from La Richardais, France. Arachnoiditis of posterior fossa (blindness, deafness, hemiplegia). Her cure was recognised on 15 August 1956.

Vittorio Micheli
Visited Lourdes: 1 June 1963.

Age 23, from Scurelle, Italy. Sarcoma (cancer) of pelvis; tumour so large that his left thigh became loose from the socket, leaving his left leg limp and paralysed. After taking the waters, he was free of pain and could walk. By February 1964 the tumour was gone, the hip joint had recalcified, and he returned to a normal life. His cure was recognized on 26 May 1976.

For a cure to be recognised as medically inexplicable, certain facts require to be established:

The original diagnosis must be verified and confirmed beyond doubt
The diagnosis must be regarded as “incurable” with current means (although ongoing treatments do not disqualify the cure)
The cure must happen in association with a visit to Lourdes, typically while in Lourdes or in the vicinity of the shrine itself (although drinking or bathing in the water are not required)
The cure must be immediate (rapid resolution of symptoms and signs of the illness)
The cure must be complete (with no residual impairment or deficit)
The cure must be permanent (with no recurrence)

As you can see the Catholic Church does not hide the workings of God. The medical board at Lourds is not of the Church and is composed of religious and non-religious. This is for everybody to see. These are true healings from God.

I like your stories. Keep them coming and I will comment further as it’s late.

 

[ParkerD]

Jeanne Fretel
Visited Lourdes: 10 May 1948.

Age 31, a student nurse from Rennes, France. Tubercular peritonitis with complications for seven years, extreme emaciation and oscillating fever. Comatose when brought to Lourdes, was given a tiny fragment of the Eucharist and awoke. Reported being “instantly and permanently cured” later that night while lying in her wheelchair beside the spring. She had not yet bathed in or drunk the water. Her cure was recognised officially on 11 November 1950.

Marie Bigot
Visited Lourdes: 8 October 1953 and 10 October 1954.

Age 32, from La Richardais, France. Arachnoiditis of posterior fossa (blindness, deafness, hemiplegia). Her cure was recognised on 15 August 1956.

Vittorio Micheli
Visited Lourdes: 1 June 1963.

Age 23, from Scurelle, Italy. Sarcoma (cancer) of pelvis; tumour so large that his left thigh became loose from the socket, leaving his left leg limp and paralysed. After taking the waters, he was free of pain and could walk. By February 1964 the tumour was gone, the hip joint had recalcified, and he returned to a normal life. His cure was recognized on 26 May 1976.

For a cure to be recognised as medically inexplicable, certain facts require to be established:

The original diagnosis must be verified and confirmed beyond doubt
The diagnosis must be regarded as “incurable” with current means (although ongoing treatments do not disqualify the cure)
The cure must happen in association with a visit to Lourdes, typically while in Lourdes or in the vicinity of the shrine itself (although drinking or bathing in the water are not required)
The cure must be immediate (rapid resolution of symptoms and signs of the illness)
The cure must be complete (with no residual impairment or deficit)
The cure must be permanent (with no recurrence)

As you can see the Catholic Church does not hide the workings of God. The medical board at Lourds is not of the Church and is composed of religious and non-religious. This is for everybody to see. These are true healings from God.

I like your stories. Keep them coming and I will comment further as it’s late.

Rick,
I thought I would add one more story, taken from a talk by Elder Dallin Oaks, an apostle, but about someone else:

"Another sacred experience is related in the book Tongan Saints. It happened while Elder ‘Iohani Wolfgramm and his wife were serving a mission in their native Tonga, presiding over a branch on an outlying island. Their three-year-old daughter was accidentally run over by a loaded taxi. Four of the occupants of the taxi sorrowfully carried her lifeless body to her parents. “Her head was crushed and her face was terribly disfigured.” 20 The sorrowing helpers offered to take the little girl’s body to the hospital so the doctors could repair her severely damaged head and face for the funeral. I now quote the words of her father, Elder Wolfgramm: “I told them I did not want them to take her but that I would ask God what I should do and, if it was possible, to give her life back.” 21

The helpers took the little girl’s body into the chapel. Elder Wolfgramm continued: “I asked them to hold her while I gave her a priesthood blessing. By then the curious people of the village were flocking in to see our stricken little daughter. As I was about to proceed with the administration, I felt tongue-tied. Struggling to speak, I got the distinct impression that I should not continue with the ordinance. It was as if a voice were speaking to me saying: ‘This is not the right time, for the place is full of mockers and unbelievers. Wait for a more private moment.’

“My speech returned at that moment and I addressed the group: ‘The Lord has restrained me from blessing this little girl, because there are unbelievers among you who doubt this sacred ordinance. Please help me by leaving so I can bless my child.’ ” 22

The people left without taking offense. The grieving parents carried the little girl to their home, put her body on her own bed, and covered her with a sheet. Three hours passed, and her body began to show the effects of death. The mother pleaded with the father to bless her, but he insisted that he still felt restrained. Finally, the impression came that he should now proceed. I return to his words:

“All present in the home at that moment were people with faith in priesthood blessings. The feeling of what I should do and say was so strong within me that I knew Tisina would recover completely after the blessing. Thus, I anointed her head and blessed her in the name of Jesus Christ to be well and normal. I blessed her head and all her wounds to heal perfectly, thanking God for his goodness to me in allowing me to hold his priesthood and bring life back to my daughter. I asked him to open the doors of Paradise, so I could tell her to come back and receive her body again and live. The Lord then spoke to my heart and said, ‘She will return to you tomorrow. You will be reunited then.’ ” 23

The parents spent an anxious night beside the body of the little girl, who appeared to be lifeless. Then, suddenly, the little girl awoke, alive and well. Her father’s account concludes: “I grabbed her and examined her, her head and face. They were perfectly normal. All her wounds were healed; and from that day to this, she has experienced no complications from the accident. Her life was the miraculous gift from Heavenly Father during our missionary labors in Fo’ui.”

Here is the link to the talk, with several other experiences described as well as an explanation about miracles in general:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=0371759235d0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Have a good evening, Rick.

 

[amontoya]

Rick,
When Christ raised Lazarus from the dead, many Jews didn’t believe that it had happened. He also didn’t call in a crowd of people to witness the healing in the case of Lazarus. I’ll look up some sources for some of the experiences I have heard (not seen personally).

John 11:41-42, "So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

John 11:45, “Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him.”

There was a large crowd and many who witnessed Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead, believed in Him. Jesus spoke specifically for the benefit of those witnesses.