Are Mormons allowed to drink...

[paul_barlow]

catsrus:

The mormons who came to my door were, unlike you, very polite and I enjoyed “communing” with them and learning some of what mormons believe and showing them some differences in their and my faith.
DO NOT put words into my mouth! I have NEVER said anything about other churches being lead by the devil! You need to get it under control Paul.
Instead of putting words in my mouth, why not go back to the Cain issue that you asked me to look up, I did, and now you refuse to explain the lds position?

if your church is true. then all other churches are false. and if they are false they are not of god. and if they are then not lead by god who leads them. so if they are all false why would gods church want to associate with false churches. that is clearly the truth yes. so as gods only true church you should have nothing to do with those that teach false doctrine. for that that leads people away from the truth is of the devil.
its was unlucky that your post crossed with one where i had been acused of belonging to a satanic cult.

 

[paul_barlow]

Tmaque:

Well, you couldn’t be more wrong about retention rates. I don’t consider my LDS covenants authentic because the LDS Church is false. Just as I wouldn’t consider a marriage valid if the wife turned out to be a man. Both are not what they purported to be.

no look at the number of active catholics in this country. by active i mean one who goes most of the time and not only at hatchings, matchings and dispatchings. you would be lucky to get 1 in 100 attending. thats why the priests make the parents of children wanting to go to a catholic school attend mass. because they had problems with non active catholics filling the places. i recognize that you belong to a section of active church membership but please don’t pretend that all the catholics are fully active.

 

[catsrus]

so as gods only true church you should have nothing to do with those that teach false doctrine. for that that leads people away from the truth is of the devil.

Wrong. Knowing what others believe and understanding why they believe it leads to dialog - which is a good thing because Christ exhorts us to be one in our understanding (or at least try to be!) and to love our neighbor. How can we become one in love by ignoring that neighbor or refusing to speak with him?
Further, one who is firm in their faith is not not swayed from it just by conversing with another who believes differently.
Now…back to the Cain deal?..

 

[Tmaque]

paul barlow:

no look at the number of active catholics in this country. by active i mean one who goes most of the time and not only at hatchings, matchings and dispatchings. you would be lucky to get 1 in 100 attending. thats why the priests make the parents of children wanting to go to a catholic school attend mass. because they had problems with non active catholics filling the places. i recognize that you belong to a section of active church membership but please don’t pretend that all the catholics are fully active.

I’m speaking of convert retention. The retention rate of Catholic converts is very high. Your 1 in 100 statement is way off. 48 % of Catholics in the U.S. attend mass at least weekly according to the 2001 Barna Survey. Which, is very high considering the poor catechesis that has taken place in the last 30 years. I think it’s lower than that, probably closer to 30%.

 

[paul_barlow]

catsrus:

Wrong. Knowing what others believe and understanding why they believe it leads to dialog - which is a good thing because Christ exhorts us to be one in our understanding (or at least try to be!) and to love our neighbor. How can we become one in love by ignoring that neighbor or refusing to speak with him?
Further, one who is firm in their faith is not not swayed from it just by conversing with another who believes differently.
Now…back to the Cain deal?..

no thats not what i was getting at individuals thats fine. but churches viz a false church is not going to convert to the truth it can not. but the true church can suffer from the false teachings that the church risks mixing with the truth. you can see this in some of pauls letters to the churches.
found stuff on the cain thing lots of stuff but it will take time to sort out into a small message it stands at about 50 a4 pages at the moment.

 

[paul_barlow]

Tmaque:

I’m speaking of convert retention. The retention rate of Catholic converts is very high. Your 1 in 100 statement is way off. 48 % of Catholics in the U.S. attend mass at least weekly according to the 2001 Barna Survey. Which, is very high considering the poor catechesis that has taken place in the last 30 years. I think it’s lower than that, probably closer to 30%.

that could be true of converts. converts are usally more faithful than those brought up in a church. i don’t know about the state RCC in the usa but here the catholic church is not growing lots of churchs closing ect. which even i think is not good. its better to have some faith than none. and i will stick to the 1 in 100 for non converts.

 

[catsrus]

found stuff on the cain thing lots of stuff but it will take time to sort out into a small message it stands at about 50 a4 pages at the moment.

Good enough.
I am patient so take all the time you need.
Might want to start a new thread though.

 

[Tmaque]

paul barlow:

that could be true of converts. converts are usally more faithful than those brought up in a church. i don’t know about the state RCC in the usa but here the catholic church is not growing lots of churchs closing ect. which even i think is not good. its better to have some faith than none. and i will stick to the 1 in 100 for non converts.

That may be the case in the UK, I have no idea. By the way, I’m 50% Barlow(my Mother’s maiden name).

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

paul barlow:

that could be true of converts. converts are usally more faithful than those brought up in a church. i don’t know about the state RCC in the usa but here the catholic church is not growing lots of churchs closing ect. which even i think is not good. its better to have some faith than none. and i will stick to the 1 in 100 for non converts.

Are you confusing the Catholic Church with the Anglican Church? The Catholic Church has been buying up properties from the CofE for a while now…

 

[paul_barlow]

Semper Fi:

Are you confusing the Catholic Church with the Anglican Church? The Catholic Church has been buying up properties from the CofE for a while now…

not in lancashire lots being merged infact theres one being pulled down about two miles away from me.

 

[majick275]

When I was an elders quorum pres. our stake was about 30% active i attendance. New converts were few and far between and had about a 50% retention rate. Previous stakes I was in had higher activity rates (up to 60% in one) but lower retention rates. (15% was lowest). The only trend I saw was that higher convert baptism rates usually had lower retention rates. (quantity v. quality) member referals were always much higher retention than missionary tracting converts. My last ward usually only had about one convert/ year and only due to existing member move-ins from other areas were they able to keep up with inactives, etc. to maintain a reasonably stable attendance number.

My Catholic parish is overflowing at every mass and the RCIA classes are always full. (of course Texas has always had a strong Catholic presence)

 

[MikeMaturenMDiv]

Hmmmmm. Too bad Joseph Smith didn’t follow this. While in prison before his death, he had whiskey smuggled in to him, along with a gun.

Mike
BJ Colbert:

Mormons are “allowed” to do anything we want to do. But, we are advised to abstain from Alcoholic drinks and anything that is habit forming, or health threatening.
I know from personal experience that alchohol is not good for the body.

 

[MikeMaturenMDiv]

paul barlow:

then i think your mum needs to have a chat with her bishop. the w o w is clear eating the stuff is just as bad as drinking it. thats why your mums bishop would be a bit puzzled in a temple recommend interview. where does she get the scriptural backing to do this. if she does this she may as well pop down to the pub. its wrong simple.

Just out of curiosity, do you use mouthwash? It’s got LOTS of alcohol in it. How about breath spray? Same deal. In cooking (I am an amateur chef), the alcohol cooks out–when cooked as directed–leaving only the flavor of the particular grape.
paul barlow:

d&c 89:7 and again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

Cool! I’m gonna go fill my tub with Merlot right now! Wooohooo!
(before you flame me…get a sense of humor!)

Mike

 

[MikeMaturenMDiv]

This is what the Mormon Church CLAIMS for itself. They CLAIM to be Christian. However, the LDS Baptism is not accepted by ANY Christian body, just as the LDS Church does not accept Baptism from any other Christian body.

The LDS doctrine of the deity of Jesus is not in line with Orthodox Christian teaching.

I will stop short of calling the LDS Church a cult. However, I will say that, at best, it is a pseudo-Christian sect.

Sorry if that sounds uncharitable, but Truth is Truth.

Mike
paul barlow:

i thought you were trying to have a sensible discusion. so you are saying that you parents are or were satanists. your church does not even teach this doctrine.*** we are christians just as you say you are ***]we follow christs teachings closer than your church. becareful or we may need to look at the book of revalations.

 

[paul_barlow]

majick275:

When I was an elders quorum pres. our stake was about 30% active i attendance. New converts were few and far between and had about a 50% retention rate. Previous stakes I was in had higher activity rates (up to 60% in one) but lower retention rates. (15% was lowest). The only trend I saw was that higher convert baptism rates usually had lower retention rates. (quantity v. quality) member referals were always much higher retention than missionary tracting converts. My last ward usually only had about one convert/ year and only due to existing member move-ins from other areas were they able to keep up with inactives, etc. to maintain a reasonably stable attendance number.

My Catholic parish is overflowing at every mass and the RCIA classes are always full. (of course Texas has always had a strong Catholic presence)

can not argue with this statement the more time we spend teaching and fellowshipping the better convert retention rate.
can not argue over your retention rate but it does not reflect the decline in traditional church attendance. hope you are all safe in texas take care.

 

[paul_barlow]

MikeMaturenMDiv:

Hmmmmm. Too bad Joseph Smith didn’t follow this. While in prison before his death, he had whiskey smuggled in to him, along with a gun.

Mike

he had a gun so did the hundreds who murdered him. he died a martyr for his beliefs. are you ready to. please prove your statement about the whiskey…

 

[paul_barlow]

]Just out of curiosity, do you use mouthwash? It’s got LOTS of alcohol in it. How about breath spray? Same deal. In cooking (I am an amateur chef), the alcohol cooks out–when cooked as directed–leaving only the flavor of the particular grape.

**No i do not but thats me. Why are you so intrested in this. i think this is becoming silly we do not eat cook or drink it. there maybe members who do not live it the maybe members who don’t understand. but thats the rule. So except it. If you want to even live it. it will not hurt you. **

Cool! I’m gonna go fill my tub with Merlot right now! Wooohooo!
(before you flame me…get a sense of humor!)

I need to see one first. its for cleaning wounds.

 

[arieh0310]

paul barlow:

he had a gun so did the hundreds who murdered him. he died a martyr for his beliefs. are you ready to. please prove your statement about the whiskey…

From Websters:

martyr: 1 : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion

How is an old west style shootout martyrdom? One might say he was a “heroic soldier for the faith” but not a martyr. He didn’t willingly lay down his life for the faith, he was fighting back to escape the wrath of the crowd.

 

[paul_barlow]

This is what the Mormon Church CLAIMS for itself. They CLAIM to be Christian. However, the LDS Baptism is not accepted by ANY Christian body, just as the LDS Church does not accept Baptism from any other Christian body.

The LDS doctrine of the deity of Jesus is not in line with Orthodox Christian teaching.

I will stop short of calling the LDS Church a cult. However, I will say that, at best, it is a pseudo-Christian sect.

Sorry if that sounds uncharitable, but Truth is Truth.

Mike
i think i have been warned not to do tit for tat. we do not condem you for beliving what you believe in fact see below.

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be apunished for their own• sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind• may be saved•, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith• in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called• of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of chands by those who are in authority, to preach• the Gospel and administer in the frdinances• thereof.

6 We believe in the same aorganization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, dteachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, fhealing, interpretation• of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word• of God as far as it is translated ccorrectly•; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has arevealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet breveal• many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal agathering• of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion• (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will dreign• personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be erenewed and receive its paradisiacal• glory.

11 We claim the aprivilege• of worshiping Almighty God according to the bdictates of our own cconscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them dworship• how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to bkings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in cobeying, honoring, and sustaining the dlaw•.

13 aWe• believe in being bhonest, true, cchaste, dbenevolent, virtuous, and in doing egood to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we fhope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to gendure all things. If there is anything hvirtuous, ilovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

JOSEPH SMITH.

which version of belief are you refering to the catholic one the protestant one, the one you tried to start or the catholic church.
why would we want the catholic church to except our baptism we believe we are the true church. you believe i assume that the catholic church is true. so it stands to reason that a church should require baptism by one who holds the true commision of jesus to baptise. he sent his disiples to baptise not every member had that authority.
we can only wait and see what truth is. at the second coming we shall see who was valiant in the faith of christ. you have had a few diffrent versions of the truth in your life. why not try ours.

 

[paul_barlow]

arieh0310:

From Websters:

martyr: 1 : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion

How is an old west style shootout martyrdom? One might say he was a “heroic soldier for the faith” but not a martyr. He didn’t willingly lay down his life for the faith, he was fighting back to escape the wrath of the crowd.

picking points we belive he is a martyr. So for our belief system he is. thank you for your second qoute very fair minded. I seem to remember that some of the early aposles escaped from prision. what about peter and his sword.