Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

[Horton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12 View Post

Hi, jane;
Paul got direct revelation from the resurrected Jesus, while persecuting the same Christians who witnessed Jesus divinity, humanity, death, resurrection and who raised the dead before their very eyes, when He walked the earth.

I don’t follow Paul. I follow Paul’s Master Jesus Christ.

LDS believe the same about Paul and Joseph Smith

.

But not really the same as Paul was with Jesus Christ while Christ walked the earth. Joseph Smith was not. Gabriel is talking about the reality of someone who heard from the mouth of Christ what to teach.

Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12 View Post

I am Christian, not because of Paul, I am Christian because I am baptized into Christ Himself in the blessed Trinity who is One God and no other. This is what makes me a Christian. To Accept Jesus Christ as the Word of God made flesh and the works of God’s Word made flesh, who saves me daily.

Same here.

You may behave with Christian values and morals but because of their distinct theology the LDS church as a whole is not a Christian Church. I believe many LDS people behave in a Christian manner but behaving as a Christian and actually being a Christian are two separate things.

Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12 View Post

The gospel Paul teaches is not his own Gospel, that Gospel is the same Gospel Jesus gave to Peter and other disciples who got divine revelation first hand from God to hand down to us.

Same here.

Gabriel again is talking divine revelation that was actually from Jesus Christ, while he was here on earth. All public revelation stopped with the death of the last apostle. People can & do have private revelation but it does not and can not change Church doctrine. For example the Pope can’t have a “revelation” and then change the doctrine of the Trinity. The Pope may or may not have revelations, I have no idea, but if he does they are private ones. Many people have revelations or visions or encounters but it is private communication from God on what that person is to do, or stop doing, or to not do. I don’t know how to better explain it. But again very different than public revelation which does not happen.

Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12 View Post

In my opinion, Charles T. Russell and Joseph Smith teach another gospel other than Jesus Christ, which the New Testament informs us and teaches us to beware of such new gospels, even if they come from Angels, they are accursed.

I acknowledge and respect your opinion here, though I adamantly disagree with you on the Joseph Smith account. I’ve no comment on Russel.

With the additions of the D&C, the BoM, the pearl book, and whatever else the LDS do teach another gospel. Do the LDS teach from those books or not? Do you call them scripture or not? In Matthew 7:15-20 Jesus teaches us to beware of false prophets. This is in the Gospel.

False Prophets.
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 l By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.

Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12 View Post

How are you Christian? by your moral standards or something else?

I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. I devote my entire being to the Father, Son, and Spirit, every day. I was baptized in their name. I pray to the Father in the name of the Son, as He instructed. I believe in them with my entirety and do everything I can to uphold and honor that faith.

I am sure you believe in Jesus Christ as you know Him. But even in your comment above there are words/phrases that indicate your understanding of being a Christian is complicated with your idea of Christian behavior. “their name”, “believe in them”, to be Christian is to know there isn’t a “them” there is a HIM.

 

[JMM1957]

Hi jane_doe,

I share the same view as Gabriel of 12, that LDS preach another gospel other than Jesus Christ.

Definition of gospel: 1) the teaching or revelation of Christ (not Joseph Smith), 2) the record of Jesus’ life and teaching (not Joseph Smith) in the first four books of the New Testament. Words in parenthesis are mine.

The LDS are adding more gospel/scripture on top of what historic Christianity had believed for 1800 years. There was to be no more divine revelation after the apostolic age, this is why Paul says what he did in Galatians 1:8-9. Do you agree with Paul or not?

Joseph Smith intended to “restore the gospel”, my question is who’s gospel did he want to restore in your opinion? Do you restore the original true gospel of Jesus Christ, that Paul spoke of, by adding three more books of LDS scripture to the fixed canon of Christian Scripture that was 1800 years old?

 

[jane_doe]

Hi jane_doe,

I share the same view as Gabriel of 12, that LDS preach another gospel other than Jesus Christ.

Definition of gospel: 1) the teaching or revelation of Christ (not Joseph Smith), 2) the record of Jesus’ life and teaching (not Joseph Smith) in the first four books of the New Testament. Words in parenthesis are mine.

The LDS are adding more gospel/scripture on top of what historic Christianity had believed for 1800 years. There was to be no more divine revelation after the apostolic age, this is why Paul says what he did in Galatians 1:8-9. Do you agree with Paul or not?

Joseph Smith intended to “restore the gospel”, my question is who’s gospel did he want to restore in your opinion? Do you restore the original true gospel of Jesus Christ, that Paul spoke of, by adding three more books of LDS scripture to the fixed canon of Christian Scripture that was 1800 years old?

Your post here has a number of misconceptions about LDS beliefs. Would you like me to address them and talk about them, or would you rather just leave it having said your views?

 

[JMM1957]

Your post here has a number of misconceptions about LDS beliefs. Would you like me to address them and talk about them, or would you rather just leave it having said your views?

Of course, address them, always willing to listen.

 

[jane_doe]

Of course, address them, always willing to listen.

Ok. For this post I am quoting your post 342, and speaking from an LDS perspective.

JMM1957: I share the same view as Gabriel of 12, that LDS preach another gospel other than Jesus Christ.
Jane: I acknowledge and respect your opinion here, though I adamantly disagree.

JMM1957 : Definition of gospel: 1) the teaching or revelation of Christ (not Joseph Smith),
Jane: LDS beliefs are teachings on Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is the master, not Paul, Moses, Joseph Smith, Peter, or anyone else.

JMM1957: in the first four books of the New Testament.
Jane: No. The Gospel is the Good News: the news of Christ’s birth, death, resurrection, and salvation for man. It is not just confined to the first four books of the NT, nor the Bible, nor any language, nor Earth.

JMM1957: There was to be no more divine revelation after the apostolic age,
Jane: Do you have a Biblical citation for this?

JMM1957: this is why Paul says what he did in Galatians 1:8-9. Do you agree with Paul or not?
Jane: Paul is not saying there will be no more divine revelation after the apostolic age. Rather he is warning against false teachings. I very much agree with Paul in that we should be wary of false teachings.
Now, before you say “and LDS believe false teachings!”, I could say the same thing about Catholic beliefs, and a Baptist could say the same thing about both of us, and a Lutheran about everyone else, etc. So let’s just skip that unproductive conversation.

 

[Stephen168]

God begets God. God made man. Maybe someday Mormons will get the difference? Jesus is eternally begotten. He was not begotten at the annunciation or at His birth.

Yes, it seems Mormons failure to see the Christian Trinity in scripture rests on the failure to understand the difference between beget and create.

Just for fun: some translations of the Creed.

Italian: generato, non creato, della stessa sostanza del Padre; generated, not created, same substance as the Father

Greek: Γεννηθέντα, ου ποιηθέντα, ομοούσιον τω Πατρί; begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father

German: gezeugt, nicht geschaffen, eines Wesens mit dem Vater; begotten, not made , of one being with the Father

French: Engendré, non pas créé, de même nature que le Père; generated, not made, the same nature as the Father

 

[Stephen168]

Such logic does not flow at all. For example: John 17:21 says “That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.”
Are we to be one with the Father through co-substantation? That doesn’t make any sense. Rather, ONE In belief in God, Goodness, Truth, etc.

It doesn’t make any sense if you are using an incorrect definition of “co-substantiation” (I believe you mean consubstantiation). What is your definition/understanding that leads you to say that it doesn’t make sense?

Can you or any Catholic define “consubstantiation” or more importantly the creedal word you say every Sunday "consubstantial? "
I personally believe LDS are on common ground (in common with most or all Catholics) when they do not know what to mean when saying "consubstantial. “

jane_doe is making a claim which she cannot substantiate, because it seems she is parroting a term which she has no idea what it means.

Whether a Catholic or a Mormon can define the term has absolutely nothing to do with jane_doe’s understanding of the term. The only person who can tell us is jane_doe and she refuses.

The God of Christianity is rational when properly understood. The God of the latter-day-saint movement is not the God of Christianity; therefore Mormons are not Christian.

 

[jane_doe]

jane_doe is making a claim which she cannot substantiate, because it seems she is parroting a term which she has no idea what it means.

Whether a Catholic or a Mormon can define the term has absolutely nothing to do with jane_doe’s understanding of the term. The only person who can tell us is jane_doe and she refuses.

The God of Christianity is rational when properly understood. The God of the latter-day-saint movement is not the God of Christianity; therefore Mormons are not Christian.

I notice that you didnt explain your view, but only insulted others.

 

[Stephen168]

I notice that you didnt explain your view, but only insulted others.

It was you that made the claim not me.
LivingWaters asked for YOUR understand not MY understanding. As I said, “Whether a Catholic or a Mormon can define the term has absolutely nothing to do with jane_doe’s understanding of the term. The only person who can tell us is jane_doe and she refuses.”

And you refuse again.

 

[jane_doe]

It was you that made the claim not me.
LivingWaters asked for YOUR understand not MY understanding. As I said, “Whether a Catholic or a Mormon can define the term has absolutely nothing to do with jane_doe’s understanding of the term. The only person who can tell us is jane_doe and she refuses.”

And you refuse again.

I did not refuse: TOm beat me to a good answer, so rather than reinvent the wheel I endorsed his well said explaination.

But the way: it is beyond me why you are asking Mormons to define your theology.

 

[Stephen168]

I did not refuse: TOm beat me to a good answer, so rather than reinvent the wheel I endorsed his well said explaination.

But the way: it is beyond me why you are asking Mormons to define your theology.

Not only did Tom not answer the question. Even if he did, he is not YOU.

And you refuse again.

The God of Christianity is rational when properly understood. The God of the latter-day-saint movement is not the God of Christianity; therefore Mormons are not Christian.

 

[Stephen168]

That’s great, however his response does not address my question, which was "It doesn’t make any sense if you are using an incorrect definition of “co-substantiation” (I believe you mean consubstantiation). What is your definition/understanding that leads you to say that it doesn’t make sense?"

His post does not address that (it talks about the LDS view), so I am wondering what is your definition/understanding.

I don’t think you will ever get an answer from jane_doe.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I did not refuse: TOm beat me to a good answer, so rather than reinvent the wheel I endorsed his well said explaination.

But the way: it is beyond me why you are asking Mormons to define your theology.

Tom didn’t answer my question. Here is the dialogue:

In response to:

So explain that to me. How are God and Christ “one” yet they don’t share the same substance? Doesn’t one logically have to follow from the other?

You said:

Such logic does not flow at all. For example: John 17:21 says “That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.”
Are we to be one with the Father through co-substantation? That doesn’t make any sense. Rather, ONE In belief in God, Goodness, Truth, etc.

I then said:

It doesn’t make any sense if you are using an incorrect definition of “co-substantiation” (I believe you mean consubstantiation). What is your definition/understanding that leads you to say that it doesn’t make sense?

(Emphasis added)

Tom said:

I have looked for where you might have defined “consubstantial” in the past, but I have only found a few places where you quote CCC and where you discuss “separate” and “distinctions.”

I looked back at what Jane offered and I think she meant kindly what I say more aggressively.
“It is clear in scripture that there is One God. It is LDS and Catholic belief that Jesus Christ is God and that God the Father is God. Our shared scripture, the Bible, provides very little assistance in answering the question of HOW God the Father and God the Son are One God. John 17, where Jesus tells his apostles to become one like He and His Father are one, is the MOST HELPFUL of ALL SCRIPTURE in answering this question. Whatever the Bible teaches about the oneness of God the Father and God the Son, it would seem it is a oneness that the apostles can also enter into among themselves. This IMO is solid LDS teaching, but not developed non-LDS Chritianity.”

That is a more direct way of saying what I think Jane was saying.
Still, I think it is true and it should give pause to folks who think LDS embrace a non-Biblical Trinity.
Charity, TOm

This does not answer the question that I asked, quoted above. Instead, it states what LDS think about the oneness of the members of the Godhead, which is not what I was asking (again, see the quote given right in this post).

So, Stephen is correct: my question has not been answered. Also, I am not sure why anything is “beyond” you. If we are discussing, anything, to have a substantive discussion, we have to be talking about the same thing. Hence my question. You said something doesn’t make any sense. I am asking what is your understanding of the concept that leads you to state that it doesn’t make any sense.

 

[jane_doe]

Not only did Tom not answer the question. Even if he did, he is not YOU.

And you refuse again.

The God of Christianity is rational when properly understood. The God of the latter-day-saint movement is not the God of Christianity; therefore Mormons are not Christian.

Why have me reinvent TOm’s explanation? That’s a waste of time.

And rather than insulting, I feel it would be a much more productive conversation if you could explain your rational view of God.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Why have me reinvent TOm’s explanation? That’s a waste of time.

See my last post. Tom did not explain anything that answered my specific question.

 

[jane_doe]

See my last post. Tom did not explain anything that answered my specific question.

LW7, why do you want me to explain your theology to you? I’m sorry… but this strikes me as very illogical and I’m getting frustrated.

 

[Stephen168]

Why have me reinvent TOm’s explanation? That’s a waste of time.

And rather than insulting, I feel it would be a much more productive conversation if you could explain your rational view of God.

Tom is not you and Tom can never explain what you understand about any subject. And Tom did not answer the question. The question was not answered by Tom. The question remains unanswered by You.

When you claim something doesn’t make sense and you do not understand what that thing is, your claim is discredited. I think you know that, that is why you refuse to answer because you don’t understand what you are talking about.

The God of Christianity is rational when properly understood. The God of the latter-day-saint movement is not the God of Christianity; therefore Mormons are not Christian.

Mormonism claims their God is one in the same way that the Utah Jazz are one. This is not one but many. Christians believe in one God not several gods with a common mission statement.

 

[LivingWaters7]

LW7, why do you want me to explain your theology to you? I’m sorry… but this strikes me as very illogical and I’m getting frustrated.

If we are discussing, anything, to have a substantive discussion, we have to be talking about the same thing. Hence my question. You said something doesn’t make any sense. I am asking what is your understanding of the concept that leads you to state that it doesn’t make any sense.

 

[jane_doe]

Tom is not you and Tom can never explain what you understand about any subject. And Tom did not answer the question. The question was not answered by Tom. The question remains unanswered by You.

When you claim something doesn’t make sense and you do not understand what that thing is, your claim is discredited. I think you know that, that is why you refuse to answer because you don’t understand what you are talking about.

The God of Christianity is rational when properly understood. The God of the latter-day-saint movement is not the God of Christianity; therefore Mormons are not Christian.

Mormonism claims their God is one in the same way that the Utah Jazz are one. This is not one but many. Christians believe in one God not several gods with a common mission statement.

What rationality?!?! All I have seen from you is evasion and insults!!

 

[Stephen168]

LW7, why do you want me to explain your theology to you? I’m sorry… but this strikes me as very illogical and I’m getting frustrated.

No we want you to explain your understanding to us. Your understand is yours alone. Only you can tell us your understand. The understanding within you can only be given to us by you.

Now that two people have answer this question several times,WHY CAN’T YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION?