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steido01
Guest
If they are, it is only by the grace of God and not on purpose. Their teachings are incompatible with Christianity.
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jane_doe
Guest
So fact that church X views Catholic sacraments as invalid has no bearing on whether or not the Catholic Church considers church X to be a Christian church?
If it has no bearing, then why mention it?
I know, and I am glad you don’t get tired of my endless question
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rcwitness
Guest
Because, for one, I don’t believe it has “no bearing” at all. It is very telling of the place where the LDS church is at.
Secondly, some denominations will rebaptize under certain circumstances, but that is not the same as saying that the Catholic Church does not offer a valid Baptism.
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jane_doe
Guest
But then it doesn’t effect Evangelicals who reject Catholic baptism as well, and other Catholic sacraments as stumbling blocks. (I’m not trying to be obstinate here, and apologize if it seems like it. It just seems like inconstant logic and I’m trying to understand).
Aside: LDS consider ALL other churches rituals (Christian and non) to be invalid (it’s a priesthood authority issue), so it’s not just Catholic. But the Catholic church is admired and considered “on track” in regard that they at least have some type of sacraments and consider them critical to a person’s walk with God.
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Michael68
Guest
We have the sacraments Jesus gave us, not some type of sacraments
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rcwitness
Guest
Again, I’m not sure of a Christian denomination that rejects that the Catholic Baptism is valid. Can you provide an example? I know some claim an infant is unable to receive a valid Baptism from anyone.
ok… I would think having zero valid Sacraments would be seriously “off track”, but if you say so.
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Padres1969
Guest
It is a conflicted issue. If you’re a Catholic or Protestant the answer is no. The Mormons and JWs (along with Unitarians, Oneness Pentacostals, etc…) have a different interpretation of what God is when compared to the Catholics, Anglicans, Mainline Protestants and Evangelical Christians. They deny the very nature of the Trinune God. I’d argue they’re no more Christian than Muslims or those of the Jewish faith are Christians. That’s not to say they’re not adhrenets to a Christian like Abramamic religion. Or that they don’t deserve our love and or respect.
But one thing most Christian faiths share beyond belief in the Triune God is that they recognized baptisms performed by their fellow Christian Churches as valid because despite differences in belief they recognize each other as worshiping the same God. Now there are exceptions to that obviously, but the underlying belief about who and what God is remains the same even in the absence of reciprocal acceptance of baptism.
That said, there’s also the school of thought that anyone who worships or reveres Christ, has the right to call themselves Christian. By that measure the JWs and Mormons would qualify. But then arguably so would traditionally non-Christians religions like say Islam.
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Tarquin
Guest
Up until this year (going back to the early mid-19th century), I have never heard a Mormon or a Jehovah’s Witness express any admiration of the Catholic Church. On the contrary, the ones I have known have stated or suggested that the Catholic Church was the cause or origin of Christianity going astray into complete and absolute apostasy so dark that no reform or Second Coming could save it, but only starting over again somewhere else. I won’t comment on the language unless someone else brings it up, but the metaphor given the Catholic Church by such sects is ‘highly lowly’ unadmirable to say the least.
I have heard at least a few Popes express admiration and approval of what not only other Christian churches but even non-Christian religions have sought and have at times accomplished as a result of their religious seeking and beliefs.
I have heard at least a few Popes express admiration and approval of what not only other Christian churches but even non-Christian religions have sought and have at times accomplished as a result of their religious seeking and beliefs.
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jane_doe
Guest
Correct, Baptist believe that any infant baptism is invalid. Therefore, the vast majority of Catholic baptisms are invalid. (This isn’t a specific anti-Catholic thing). Baptists then view the rest of Catholics as unnecessary and and there are some which even view them as “trying to work your way to God” stumbling blocks.
Things which Mormons view as Catholics having on track in regards to the sacraments:ok… I would think having zero valid Sacraments would be seriously “off track”, but if you say so.
- That sacraments are necessary
- They should be done by one in authority
- Sacraments include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the priesthood, and marriage.
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rcwitness
Guest
The significant difference, though, is that they don’t reject the validity of the Catholic Baptism, just the fact that an infant is unable to receive any Baptism. Furthermore, it is then professed as merely a symbol. So while there are misunderstandings about some of the aspects of Baptism, the principle “calling on the name of the Triune God” exists in their Baptism. This is a necessary component of Christian Baptism. It is not necessary to Baptize Children to validly Baptize adult believers.
It is also, not necessary to be a priest, or other clergy, but it is the norm for the parish pastor or assistant priest to perform the Rite and Sacrament
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jane_doe
Guest
I’m still kind of lost on this, but I thank you for your help.
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rcwitness
Guest
If a Catholic, Baptized as an infant or an adult decided to convert to an Evangelical Christian faith Church, would they demand a “new” Baptism?
I’m pretty certain, for an adult Baptized Catholic, no Christian Church would demand that. And unless the individual, Baptized as an infant in the Catholic Faith, requested a “new” Baptism, they would not require a “new” one either.
Usually, these Evangelicals do not consider a Baptism “valid” or “invalid” since it is regarded as an outward sign. And we agree about the significance of that “outward profession”. We, as Catholics, believe that a parent is able to make that statement of faith in bringing their child to Baptism.
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jane_doe
Guest
As an infant, usually. As an adult? Some do.
So LDS get “pegged” for NOT thinking baptism is “just a symbol”?
Like I said, I’m confused.
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lax16
Guest
jane doe - I think you missed my post #50
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rcwitness
Guest
Well, I just tried to ask my brother in law if his Evangelical Church required him to be Baptized again, since he was Baptized Catholic as an infant. He didn’t really understand the question, and said no at first, then said yes.
I’ve also wondered about my grandmother and step grandfather who are Mormon, and for a little while we’re attending a Baptist church. I wondered if that church would require them to be Baptized to receive communion.
I’ve also wondered about my grandmother and step grandfather who are Mormon, and for a little while we’re attending a Baptist church. I wondered if that church would require them to be Baptized to receive communion.
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lax16
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What is the definition of a Mormon?
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JMM1957
Guest
I wasn’t real familiar with the whole Mormon story, so I just looked it up myself. I’m thinking that the extreme vast majority of church members are cradle Mormons, and not so many at all would be converts from another faith. Even though they accept the Bible as the Word of God, they also have in their arsenal other inspired books such as, The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. The story of how these other books came to be called scripture is something I can’t wrap my head around.
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jane_doe
Guest
Guesstimates off the top of my head–
Internationally 50% are converts
In the USA 25% are converts.
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Tarquin
Guest
I have become confused on how the word “sacraments” is being used in this thread. I went to catholic.com/encyclopedia/sacraments. The entire article is worthy of careful reading. Among other things I found there is:
“Protestants generally hold that the sacraments are signs of something sacred (grace and faith), but deny that they really cause Divine grace.”
“Luther and his early followers rejected this conception of the sacraments. They do not cause grace, but are merely “signs and testimonies of God’s good will towards us” (Augsburg Confessions)”
“Zwinglius lowered still further the dignity of the sacraments, making them signs not of God’s fidelity but of our fidelity. By receiving the sacraments we manifest faith in Christ: they are merely the badges of our profession and the pledges of our fidelity. Fundamentally all these errors arise from Luther’s newly-invented theory of righteousness, i.e. the doctrine of justification by faith alone (see Grace). If man is to be sanctified not by an interior renovation through grace which will blot out his sins, but by an extrinsic imputation through the merits of Christ, which will cover his soul as a cloak, there is no place for signs that cause grace, and those used can have no other purpose than to excite faith in the Savior.”
Are Mormon “ordinances” the exact equivalent of Catholic “sacraments”? Do Jehovah’s Witnesses use one of these words, or a similar one, for their Memorial and baptisms?
“Protestants generally hold that the sacraments are signs of something sacred (grace and faith), but deny that they really cause Divine grace.”
“Luther and his early followers rejected this conception of the sacraments. They do not cause grace, but are merely “signs and testimonies of God’s good will towards us” (Augsburg Confessions)”
“Zwinglius lowered still further the dignity of the sacraments, making them signs not of God’s fidelity but of our fidelity. By receiving the sacraments we manifest faith in Christ: they are merely the badges of our profession and the pledges of our fidelity. Fundamentally all these errors arise from Luther’s newly-invented theory of righteousness, i.e. the doctrine of justification by faith alone (see Grace). If man is to be sanctified not by an interior renovation through grace which will blot out his sins, but by an extrinsic imputation through the merits of Christ, which will cover his soul as a cloak, there is no place for signs that cause grace, and those used can have no other purpose than to excite faith in the Savior.”
Are Mormon “ordinances” the exact equivalent of Catholic “sacraments”? Do Jehovah’s Witnesses use one of these words, or a similar one, for their Memorial and baptisms?
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JMM1957
Guest
In answer to your last question, they don’t use ordinances or sacraments, just the ones you mentioned.
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