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JMM1957
Guest
Well, you obviously misunderstood my point.
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JMM1957
Guest
Thank you.
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jane_doe
Guest
If you want to understand LDS beliefs, going to LDS scripture is perfectly logical. If you want Bible verses instead, here’s an entire list of them: lds.org/scriptures/tg/god-eternal-nature-of?lang=engjane, you can’t expect me to accept this as scripture to prove your point. I know you accept this book, but I don’t. Use the Bible if you want to prove something to me.
(Note: I’m not trying to convince you that LDS beliefs are the Truth, merely trying to clarify was LDS beliefs are and are not.)
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LivingWaters7
Guest
When part of a sentence is snipped out that adds context to the statement, then no, it is not logical.
Who said anything about Mormons believing Jesus to be a “mere” creation? I didn’t. JMM didn’t.
What we are talking about is the fact that Mormons believe that Jesus is the literal firstborn spirit child of Heavenly Father, and Heavenly Mother. We are all literal spirit children of heavenly parents, and Jesus/Jehovah is the first spirit son. Is that incorrect?
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JMM1957
Guest
jane, this isn’t making sense to me. What I quoted above from an LDS site isn’t matching up to what you answered me in post #786 which I also quoted. The statement from the site says clearly that God begot the Son, who didn’t exist with the Father at one point in time, so that means the Son was created, no?
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jane_doe
Guest
No.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t Catholics also believe Christ is the Only Begotton and not a creation?
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Adding my thoughts:
Yes, it does mean that the Son was created, as it is believed that Jesus is a literal spirit child of God (and Heavenly Mother), as we all are. He is literally the first born. Now, Mormons also believe that there is an eternal aspect to all of us, an eternal “intelligence”, that wasn’t created.
From LDS.org:
Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.
lds.org/scriptures/gs/intelligence-intelligences?lang=eng
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CourtingTex
Guest
My continued prayers for respect for free will or agency (freedom to choice, act of) regardless of the differences that will ever exist with Mormons (I am one) and Jehovah’s Witnesses and others doing the same, if you will, in light of recent events in the media in New York City/New Jersey (additional Charlotte NC) and in the world in general.
Prayers and other acts of service/forebearance/charity will supersede some the threads that I read, with no comment, seeking only to be respected as all here seek the same, in accord with the scriptures on this matter.
Prayers and other acts of service/forebearance/charity will supersede some the threads that I read, with no comment, seeking only to be respected as all here seek the same, in accord with the scriptures on this matter.
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sallybutler
Guest
We don’t believe that Jesus is a “spiritual” child of the Heavenly Mother and Father.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
What do you mean by “Only Begotten”? We have to be clear here. Mormons believe that
1)Jesus is the Firstborn spirit child of the Father and Heavenly Mother
and
- Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of the Father in the flesh
The second statement is talking about Jesus/Jehovah in His mortal existence. Mormons believe that Jesus is the only person to have ever been born of a Divine Father and an earthly mother.
So, what we have been talking about all this time is the first statement. Catholics do not share in that idea. We believe that God the Son has eternally existed as God the Son, and His relationship with the Father is an eternal one. We say that the Son is “eternally begotten” of the Father.
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JMM1957
Guest
Eternally begotten. Always existed with the Father.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Perhaps it is also important to point out that Mormons also reject creation from nothing, or creatio ex nihilo. Perhaps this is why “creation” has a negative connotation. Mormons believe that God created through pre-existing matter (which is eternal). This is also related to the belief in eternal intelligences, from which the Father and Mother begot spirit children. The word “organize” is sometimes used instead of creation.
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CourtingTex
Guest
I agree with the last posting
Speaking for myself, I am not going to walk way or dismiss my conviction of faith, recognizing no such encouragement or switching my loyalty is being advanced here.
Doctrine, the endless back and forth of statements by some who were not a part of my church or left it for their own reasons, etc I will not continue --------
Prayers for tolerance.
Make it a better day.
I
Speaking for myself, I am not going to walk way or dismiss my conviction of faith, recognizing no such encouragement or switching my loyalty is being advanced here.
Doctrine, the endless back and forth of statements by some who were not a part of my church or left it for their own reasons, etc I will not continue --------
Prayers for tolerance.
Make it a better day.
I
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LivingWaters7
Guest
I think that the Encyclopedia of Mormonism states exactly the ideas that seem to be obfuscated:
**“The Father existed prior to the Son and the Holy Ghost and is the source of their divinity. In classical terms, LDS theology is subordinationist; that is, it views the Son and the Holy Ghost as subordinate to and dependent upon God the Eternal Father. They are his offspring.”
“The Son and the Holy Spirit were “in the beginning, with God,” but the Father alone existed before the beginning of the universe as it is known. He is ultimately the source of all things and the Father of all things, for in the beginning he begot the Son, and through the instrumentality of his agent, the Son, the Father accomplished the creation of all things.”
“The Father, Elohim, is called the Father because he is the literal father of the spirits of mortals (Heb. 12:9). This paternity is not allegorical. All individual human spirits were begotten (not created from nothing or made) by the Father in a premortal state, where they lived and were nurtured by Heavenly Parents.”**
eom.byu.edu/index.php/God_the_Father
There is no lack of clarity about Christ’s sonship. Jesus is the Son of God in at least three ways. First, he is the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thereby the elder brother of the spirits of all men and women as God the Father, known also by the exalted name-title Elohim, is the father of the spirits of all mankind (Num. 16:22; Heb. 12:9; John 20:17). Thus, when Christ is called the Firstborn (e.g., Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21), Latter-day Saints accept this as a possible reference to Christ’s spiritual birth.
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Christ,_Fatherhood_and_Sonship_of
Fundamental to the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the concept that all human beings were born as spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents before any were born as mortals to earthly parents. Latter-day Saints believe that the eldest and firstborn spirit child of God is Jehovah and that it was he who was later born with a physical body to mary as Jesus Christ.
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Christ#Jesus_Christ:_Firstborn_in_the_Spirit
**“The Father existed prior to the Son and the Holy Ghost and is the source of their divinity. In classical terms, LDS theology is subordinationist; that is, it views the Son and the Holy Ghost as subordinate to and dependent upon God the Eternal Father. They are his offspring.”
“The Son and the Holy Spirit were “in the beginning, with God,” but the Father alone existed before the beginning of the universe as it is known. He is ultimately the source of all things and the Father of all things, for in the beginning he begot the Son, and through the instrumentality of his agent, the Son, the Father accomplished the creation of all things.”
“The Father, Elohim, is called the Father because he is the literal father of the spirits of mortals (Heb. 12:9). This paternity is not allegorical. All individual human spirits were begotten (not created from nothing or made) by the Father in a premortal state, where they lived and were nurtured by Heavenly Parents.”**
eom.byu.edu/index.php/God_the_Father
There is no lack of clarity about Christ’s sonship. Jesus is the Son of God in at least three ways. First, he is the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thereby the elder brother of the spirits of all men and women as God the Father, known also by the exalted name-title Elohim, is the father of the spirits of all mankind (Num. 16:22; Heb. 12:9; John 20:17). Thus, when Christ is called the Firstborn (e.g., Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21), Latter-day Saints accept this as a possible reference to Christ’s spiritual birth.
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Christ,_Fatherhood_and_Sonship_of
Fundamental to the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the concept that all human beings were born as spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents before any were born as mortals to earthly parents. Latter-day Saints believe that the eldest and firstborn spirit child of God is Jehovah and that it was he who was later born with a physical body to mary as Jesus Christ.
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Christ#Jesus_Christ:_Firstborn_in_the_Spirit
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LivingWaters7
Guest
And finally, from “The Origin of Man”:
**
“The Father of Jesus is our Father also. Jesus Himself taught this truth when He instructed His disciples how to pray: “Our Father which art in heaven,” etc. Jesus, however, is the firstborn among all the sons of God—the first begotten in the spirit, and the only begotten in the flesh. He is our elder brother, and we, like Him, are in the image of God. All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.”**
lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng
I think that’s more than enough to demonstrate exactly what is being said here: Mormons believe that we are all literal spirit children of the Father and Mother. They believe that Jesus Christ is the literal firstborn spirit child of the Father and Mother. Mormons believe that there is an eternal “intelligence” that we all have, and that creation is an act of “organizing”, as they reject creation from nothing. However it is clear that it is taught that Jesus is literally our elder brother, the firstborn of God, and we are all spirit children of loving heavenly parents.
**
“The Father of Jesus is our Father also. Jesus Himself taught this truth when He instructed His disciples how to pray: “Our Father which art in heaven,” etc. Jesus, however, is the firstborn among all the sons of God—the first begotten in the spirit, and the only begotten in the flesh. He is our elder brother, and we, like Him, are in the image of God. All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.”**
lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng
I think that’s more than enough to demonstrate exactly what is being said here: Mormons believe that we are all literal spirit children of the Father and Mother. They believe that Jesus Christ is the literal firstborn spirit child of the Father and Mother. Mormons believe that there is an eternal “intelligence” that we all have, and that creation is an act of “organizing”, as they reject creation from nothing. However it is clear that it is taught that Jesus is literally our elder brother, the firstborn of God, and we are all spirit children of loving heavenly parents.
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JMM1957
Guest
There is a differentiation between “in the beginning” and the “beginning of the universe” as I understand it?
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RebeccaJ
Guest
LDS define “eternal” as having a starting point, on a linear timeline. In this usage, something can exist before something else that is eternal.
Catholics user “eternal” as it is defined “lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning”
Mormons leave out the “without beginning” in their usage of “eternal”.
As examples phrases uses often in Mormonism: “Eternal families” and “Eternal Marriage”…both of which have a beginning. “Eternal” means for LDS, “without end”.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
I would say JWs aren’t since they refuse to acknowledge the divinity of Jesus. And Mormons aren’t because they aren’t monotheists.
M
Michael68
Guest
We’ve had 55 pages now bashing these people’s faith. Are we even allowed to be friends with them?
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