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Brandon_Cal
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Why are you guys placating a self-named Satanist?
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PRmerger
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Huh? Who are you referencing?
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Porknpie
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Gazelam, perhaps you could answer post 1108
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kimg901
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So do you think joe smith is a god? brigham young too? Or you will become a god yourself after your death? Do you think that God has a father and so on? If you can honestly answer any of these with a yes then you are not a Christian. The bible is Gods inspired Word. Do you really think God is so weak that he would let a mere mortal man corrupt His Word and let it continue to corrupt all other men? If so how do you continue to use the bible that is corrupt? Or do you use the KJV, Mormon edition?
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KathleenGee
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Origen was a great scholar and theologian, but in his later years he started dabbling with the concept of premortal existence which led to his label as a heretic. I have read Mormons referencing Origen.
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jas84173
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The KJV is a beautiful Bible but it is so inaccurate.
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jas84173
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Origen of Alexandria? His writings are very beneficial however as you said they became somewhat strange later on. However he also believed books were scripture which are not in the modern Canon. He cited the Shepherd of Hermas, Apocalypse of Peter among others as scripture; which wasn’t that unheard of at the time, most early Christians referenced at least one book that didn’t ultimately make the Canon; however Origen seems to have really regarded many writings as scripture that weren’t put in the Bible, so his theology could seem strange just from that perspective. It’s really why eventually the Church said enough is enough we need a unanimous concencus on what the Canon is and what isn’t, because it seems this fluid Canon which was different in different regions was just leading to confusion and heresies.
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gazelam
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LDS believe that we were all in the beginning with God. Our essence, which LDS would refer to as an “intelligence” has always existed, and. God the Father created the spirits and bodies of all of us, including those of Jesus. (The Bible refers to Jesus are “firstborn in the spirit”.)
Jesus was appointed a special role as Savior at some point. Without a savior we could not return to the presence of our Heavenly Father.
Romans 1:4 (KJV) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead
(Note that Bible scholar Dale Martin of Princeton believes that a better translation for “declared” would instead be “designated”.)
Hebrews 5:9 (KJV) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
A tall order for a simple person such as myself. I’ll see what I can do.
Agree. God the Father is preeminent.
Agree in the sense He directed Christ to create our world. “all things” were fashioned from unformed matter; they were not created from nothing.
Agree.
Disagree. As I stated earlier Jesus always existed as we did, and there was a was a period of time prior to His birth in the spirit.
Jesus did not come into existence fully God. As Romans 1:4 and Hebrews 5:9 state at some point He was appointed to be out Savior.
What does this phrase even mean? Good example from good example? Jesus says that we are the light of the world. (Matthew 5) Paul says that we are children of light (1 Thessalonians 5:5)
How is this different than “God from God”?
begotten both in the spirit and the flesh
Disagree. There is no biblical justification for this.
John 17:21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me
Jesus is clearly praying here for His disciples to be unified the same way that He and the Father are unified. He clearly was not asking for His disciples to become consubstantial with each other. That unity He desired for all of us is of one purpose that He already enjoys with the Father.
Agree - fashioned from unformed matter
Agree.
Agree.
Agree.
LDS believe in the Holy Spirit. This sentence clearly can have many meanings. To say that the Holy Spirit is the “giver of life” can mean that the Holy Spirit helps us attain Eternal Life. But, nowhere in scripture are we admonished to worship the Holy Spirit.
Is seems odd to claim to belong to an apostolic church that has no… apostles.
Agree.
Agree.
Agree.
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jas84173
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Can you explain to me why if this apostasy happened do you accept the Canon of the New Testament which wasn’t decided on until the 4th century? Many popular early Christian writings were cited as scripture by some early Church Fathers, but ultimately didn’t make the cut. So if the Church lost its authority why do you even accept it? I’d actually find you muchmore credible if you didn’t and used your own Canon. Ironically you Mormons always throw James in our face about praying for truth but the letter of James was one of the last accepted books to be unanimously approved to be included in the Canon. If the Church lost its authority why should any of us believe it’s correct? And don’t give me the spiel that God told Joseph Smith the KJV is the most authentic Bible. It is a Protestant Bible and has so many known errors it is unbelievable.
Also how do you trust a con man? Wanna talk about an apostasy? How about how all of his witnesses left the movement and condemned it. That’s actually most of the reason for his arrest in Nauvoo. His neighbors said he was always a story teller. I mean I can write a book without the historical inaccuracies in the BOM but you’d think I was a con man. He stole the idea from a book written about five years earlier. Seriously Mormonism is such a lie and contradiction. They cite Amos about an apostasy; but Amos is an Old Testament book referring to the diaspora which did happen. Christ said his Church wouldn’t parish. Why establish a Church just so it could fall away and 1800 years later be restored? It’s just ridiculous but hey you drank the koolaid I guess.
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robert_ambrose
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Gabrield11
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A christian is a term what is very misused, it means a Follower of Christ. So that can only be people who take the sacraments.
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KathleenGee
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Thanks, Jas, for you additional points to my reference to Origin and his draw on non apostolic sources he used in building his theological reflections.
Gazelam, you and Mormons need to have access to our Catholic Church Catechism. In there you will see over 2,600 doctrines that provide all the references to our beliefs, going back to the apostles, the councils that came about to clarify points of view that rose over time.
There is consistency of belief that points to the reality that God is Unmovable, the Rock of our salvation who does not change or adopt to His creation.
Gazelam, you and Mormons need to have access to our Catholic Church Catechism. In there you will see over 2,600 doctrines that provide all the references to our beliefs, going back to the apostles, the councils that came about to clarify points of view that rose over time.
There is consistency of belief that points to the reality that God is Unmovable, the Rock of our salvation who does not change or adopt to His creation.
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PRmerger
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Do you mean, specifically, only those who receive the Eucharist?
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ajcstr
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So that would rule out protestants?
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Gabrield11
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I dont want to exclude protestants but if they dont believe in the teachings of the sacraments then they arent following Christ.
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Robert_in_SD
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This is a good question to ask if you want to have an argument that accomplishes nothing, and risks hurting and alienating people that you should be lovingly reaching out to. If your goal is just to throw bible verses and name-call (using words like apostate and heretic), then by all means ask the question in this way. I think there’s probably a better way to discuss the issue, perhaps by discussing the points of similarity and difference in the understanding of the Trinity as between Catholics and Mormons. Just my two cents.
Peace,
Robert
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Padres1969
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That’s not the official Catholic position if I’m not mistaken…
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PRmerger
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They* aren’t following*** all ***of the teachings of Christ but they are indeed Christians.
*Protestants
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Gabrield11
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Vatican ll is not doctrine - Pope Francis 2017
In Trent were people who deny the validity of the eucharist are in anathema.
But I think that the Vatican mean with christians people who believe in Jesus Christ but originalky were Christians people who follow and believe Jesus Christ.
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KathleenGee
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I worked in the Catholic missions and saw liberation theology enter the scene…and unfortunately some hearts…and what followed was alot of in fighting and division, to the point a papal nuncio was sent by Pope Paul VI…the country had fallen to Marxism in the mid 70’s.
The first question was what is going on here, what is your take?
The second question was…Who is Christ?
The first question was what is going on here, what is your take?
The second question was…Who is Christ?
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