Are Mormons and Unitarians Christians?

[kainosktisis]

I think you both need to step back. Check your words.

“…And they’ll know we are Christians by our love…”

 

[Theo520]

“…And they’ll know we are Christians by our love…”

Yes, Christ emphasized loving God and loving your neighbor, what is the fruit from your tree.

Don’t recall him ever checking their articulation of Gods nature before allowing them to do a Baptism. Heck, on that point I was told in Catholic School I was allowed to do a baptism if I was the last resort, and we never covered the intricacies of Theosis in our Religious Studies class, so none of us understood Church doctrine in this area.

 

[Phemie]

With the Salvation Army, you have a weird mix of people. Good, charitable, wonderful people, but adherents to the Army are allowed to receive baptism in other churches and events like river baptisms that happen in the Jordan.

Our local Salvation Army Captain was baptized Catholic and at some point went to live with his Salvation Army grandparents.

We also had a Protestant Padre on the Base who was an Anglican priest who had grown up Catholic. With him I used to say “You can take the Catholic boy out of the Church but you can’t take the Catholic Church out of the boy.” He was more like the priests I grew up with than our Pastor was.

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ:

I think by definition, rejecting the God of any religion, says one is not of that religion.

So you are saying they aren’t Catholic, got it.
I already knew that.

The God of Christianity is worshipped by…Christians.

The Trinity seems to be the only thing that all Christians (Catholic, Protestant, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox) hold in common.
These two do not.
What’s their status?

 

[Stephen168]

“We are one in the spirit, we are one in The Lord.”

John 17:20-23

 

[RebeccaJ]

kainosktisis:

“…And they’ll know we are Christians by our love…”

Yes, Christ emphasized loving God and loving your neighbor, what is the fruit from your tree.

Don’t recall him ever checking their articulation of Gods nature before allowing them to do a Baptism. Heck, on that point I was told in Catholic School I was allowed to do a baptism if I was the last resort, and we never covered the intricacies of Theosis in our Religious Studies class, so none of us understood Church doctrine in this area.

I don’t believe there will be a theological test at our judgement.

At the same time, the Church has declared that Mormon baptisms are not valid. This does not mean they are condemned to hell. It does mean that theirs is not a Christian baptism.

The OP asked if Mormons are Christian. The entry into the Christian life is baptism. There are converts to Mormonism who had a Christian baptism first. There are Mormons who seek discipleship more earnestly and devoutly than many who have had a Christian baptism.

God will be our judge.

Theosis is not a term used in general Roman Catholicism discussions very often. The concepts behind it are taught. I hear it in homilies throughout the year. We speak in Sacramental terms, particularly the graces imparted by the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist.

Mormon discussions here, the term Theosis comes up often, because Mormons have latched onto it as a term they hope to reuse.

 

[Lemuel]

I don’t believe there will be a theological test at our judgement.

God will be our judge.

That’s good enough for me.

 

[RebeccaJ]

"TOmNossor:

Let me offer this quick summary. I think you think John 17:22 is explained because the entire prayer is about uniting with God eternally and through the Eucharist. That this union the disciples are called into is only the union that Catholics believe really occurs. And thus John 17 teaches the Catholic understanding of union with one another and union with God. I hope that was close …

Charity, TOm

https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2012/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20120125.html

https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/2000/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_20001108.html

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/s...-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html

 

[Theo520]

Pretty bad logic ya got there.

The Bible is the thing that all Christians hold in common, specifically the New Testament.

The trinity was a 3rd century creation/clarification.

Yea, you identify Christians based on adherence to the teachings self evident in the New Testament.

 

[Stephen168]

When was the New Testament clarified?

 

[Theo520]

When was the New Testament clarified?

It wasn’t, yet you seem fixated on how readers of the bible should define the Trinity using reasoning that is not self evident in the Bible. Reasoning that wasn’t delineated until the Church was three centuries old.

 

[Stephen168]

Pretty bad logic ya got there.

The Bible is the thing that all Christians hold in common, specifically the New Testament.

The trinity was a 3rd century creation/clarification.

Yea, you identify Christians based on adherence to the teachings self evident in the New Testament.

You suggest you are going to lay some logic out here.
You seem to be saying that all Christians hold the New Testament in common but not the Trinity because it wasn’t clarified until the 3rd century.

So I would assume that the New Testament was clarified before the Trinity. Therefore Christians only believe what is clearly contained in the New Testament.

So I asked:

When was the New Testament clarified?

It wasn’t,

Now I’m confused about the logically argument you promised.

Why would we only believe what is contained in the New Testament if its canon was never clarified?

Or where in the New Testament does it say that Christians only believe what is contained in it?

And more specific to this thread where in the New Testament does it say God is flesh and Bone, or God was a Human Being, or Human Beings can become God, or that there are more than one God?

 

[Theo520]

You suggest you are going to lay some logic out here.

You seem to be saying that all Christians hold the New Testament in common but not the Trinity because it wasn’t clarified until the 3rd century.

So I would assume that the New Testament was clarified before the Trinity. Therefore Christians only believe what is clearly contained in the New Testament.

So I asked:

Stephen168:

When was the New Testament clarified?

You are projecting things I did not say - where did I promise you anything?

It would really help if you responded to what I explicitly said, not just what you infer.
Answer these three straight forward questions please.

1. Do you agree that Christians hold the New Testament in common as the teachings of Christ?
2. Do you agree that the bible was divinely inspired by God?
3. Do you agree that the Church delineated the Trinity in the 3rd century of the Church?

 

[cfernandomaciel]

I was raised as a Mormon, served as a Missionary in The USA back in 1999-2001, left the Mormon church back in 2005 to become an atheist, until last year, when converted to Catholicism.

All Mormons will tell you that they believe in Jesus Christ, in God, and in The Holy Ghost. If you pursue this matter in this vantage point, yes. They are Christians. They follow Jesus Christ’s teachings; believe He is the Son of God, and that The Holy Ghost is the one whom bears witness of Jesus being The Christ. When it comes down to that, it’s pretty much a no-brainer.

But as it has already been mentioned, it’s pretty much a non-trinitarian belief. According to the Mormon doctrine, God, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Ghost are three separate beings, (perfected) men as we are, each one with a different purpose.

They way I choose to see this whole matter is that for all practical purposes they are Christians, but the difference - and for some it may make the whole difference in the matter - is that they have a different understanding about the nature of The Holy Trinity, leading the whole matter to a different way of seeing the nature of the relationship they have with the Deity. Being God, Jesus, and The Holy Ghost some kind of a perfected “human being” (for the lack of a better term), it leads to some kind of a personal God (kind of a physical best friend), different than the way of Catholics see.

 

[deMontfort]

What is the 4th Century for $5,000 Alex In other words AFTER the dogmatic declaration of the Trinity.

 

[Stephen168]

You are projecting things I did not say - where did I promise you anything?

So there is nothing wrong with Rebecca’s “logic.” It was a statement of fact; the Christian deity is the Trinity.

 

[Theo520]

So there is nothing wrong with Rebecca’s “logic.” It was a statement of fact; the Christian deity is the Trinity.

Why do you ignore my straight forward questions?
Please stop deflecting. That is, if you sincerely want to discuss it.

1. Do you agree that Christians hold the New Testament in common as the teachings of Christ?
2. Do you agree that the bible was divinely inspired by God?
3. Do you agree that the Church delineated the Trinity in the 3rd century of the Church?

 

[Stephen168]

What is the 4th Century for $5,000 Alex In other words AFTER the dogmatic declaration of the Trinity.

yes, the 4th century is when the traditional canon of the New Testament was established. But it was the Council of Trent that clarified it for the Catholic Church.

 

[Stephen168]

Or where in the New Testament does it say that Christians only believe what is contained in it?

And more specific to this thread where in the New Testament does it say God is flesh and Bone, or God was a Human Being, or Human Beings can become God, or that there are more than one God?

Please stop deflecting. That is, if you sincerely want to discuss it.

Yes, I was hoping for some answers but you were deflecting.
I’m trying to stay with the subject of the thread.

 

[Theo520]

What is the 4th Century for $5,000 Alex In other words AFTER the dogmatic declaration of the Trinity.

I don’t see the relevance of your timeline. Do you imagine the books included in the New Testament were being tweaked up through the 4th Century to reflect current thinking of the Magisterium?

That the books included in the New Testament were not finalized till the 4th Century does not change that they were God inspired from their origin.