Are Mormons and Unitarians Christians?

[thephilosopher6]

For why should He require eyes who is Himself the light? Or why should He ask for feet who is everywhere? Or why should He wish to go when there is nowhere where He can go beyond Himself? Or why should He seek for hands whose will is, even when silent, the architect for the foundation of all things? He needs no ears who knows the wills that are even unexpressed; or for what reason should He need a tongue whose thought is a command? These members assuredly were necessary to men, but not to God, because man’s design would be ineffectual if the body did not fulfil the thought. Moreover, they are not needful to God, whose will the works attend not so much without any effort, as that the works themselves proceed simultaneously with the will. Moreover, He Himself is all eye, because He all sees; and all ear, because He all hears; and all hand, because He all works; and all foot, because He all is everywhere. For He is the same, whatever it is. He is all equal, and all everywhere. For He has not in Him any diversity in Himself, being simple. - Novatian, On The Trinity, 6, [230 A.D.]

“Since our mind is in itself unable to behold God as he is, it knows the Father of the universe from the beauty of his works and from the elegance of his creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being, admitting within himself no addition of any kind” Origen, Fundamental Doctrines 1:1:6 [225 A.D.]

 

[thephilosopher6]

I have utterly and completely refuted you and all the blasphemies that the religion of Mormonism holds to. Please @gazelam, take a deeper look instead of just skimming the surface and cherry picking quotes you like. Please repent and come to Jesus Christ, the true savior of the world. Joseph Smith was a false prophet and deceiver. Christ is the only way, not Joseph Smith.

 

[Lemuel]

Scripture teaches that God is Spirit,

So does the Book of Mormon.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Indeed it does, Smith didn’t formulate his idea that Elohim had a body until later. But that’s a different topic for a different time.

 

[lilypadrees]

Mormons would be if they believed in the right Jesus. But their Jesus only became a god (not God not the Son of God) after dying and being elected into the Godhood that his father (who also was a human first and then became a god after dying) had previously been elected into. They use the Scripture John 10:30 as their proof.

The Mormon Jesus is also the brother of Lucifer. They use Job 1:6 as their proof of this.

The way Mormons constantly mistranslate and misunderstand Scripture doesn’t even begin to line up with Christian (Catholic or Protestant) understanding of Scripture.

Jehovah’s Witnesses write their own Bible. Jesus to them, is Michael the Archangel.

As for Universalist Unitarians, no. They are pagan. And that is all I’m saying about them.

 

[curious_cath]

Unitarianism is a catch-all organized religion for those who are disillusioned

The original idea of Unitarianism goes back in historical time. The American version became what you say, adding Universalism to the Unitarian core, but historical Unitarianism remains Christian in Europe.

Values In Our History | UUA.org

As for Universalist Unitarians, no. They are pagan. And that is all I’m saying about them.

Many people would not agree with you on that! Don’t look at the American Universalist movement that basically integrated itself into Unitarianism. Originally, the two things were distinct.

 

[lilypadrees]

Do your research. Don’t look at the surface. Look beyond. Look in the nooks and crannies.

Learn the truth and don’t be fooled.

 

[SnoopSword]

Well… I was just coming from the other standpoint that if Jesus gave the Keys over to Peter, then ultimately the Chair of Peter legally binds who deserves to be called a Christian and thus heirs of heaven.

Actually, today, Holy Saturday, the idea is Jesus went down to Hell and got the Keys that Satan held to unlock the gates Heaven. Those Keys are on the Symbol of the Vatican.

Mormons and most all the 40,000 business ventures completely reject this idea that Jesus gave Peter keys. Some will claim it was temporary despite “till the end of the world”.

Orthodox has been divinely Protected through thick and thin only because the Pope legally bound it so in heaven for the sake of the souls of laity.

Likewise, the ‘mainline/authentic’ Protestants only have a legal baptism sacrament because the Chair of Peter bound it to be so, It’s why their Churches have stood for 500 years. All Reformers (today, really only a dozen churches or so) recognized the severity of denying full Papal authority.

Post Reformation European religious heretics were really polticial rebelions in disguise. Many, many of these groups were cast away to America where they could operate in freedom, hence todays (imagined) Rights, Freedoms and Democratic republic. Every heresy was allowed to organize and dominate.

Actually, BOTH of the United State’s borders are a direct result of the loyalty to Creed (ultimately). The Freemasons really lead this innitiative in America. America then quickly hecame a place for the worlds userers, hucksters and con artists. You could get away with things here you could NEVER get away with in Europe.

Does this picture seem Christian or Masonic?

 

[gazelam]

“For early Christians the logical subordination of Son to Father was processional, a description of the movement of saving grace from the Father through the Son as we may distinguish the light of day from the Sun (“light from light”). Meanwhile, Arius held for an ontological subordinationism whereby the being of the Son is inferior to the Father.” (In Examination of the Problems of Inclusive Language in the Trinitarian Formula of Baptism, Thomas J. Scirghi, p. 65)

Thank you very much!! Please have a joyous and Happy Easter.

 

[gazelam]

thephilosopher6:

Scripture teaches that God is Spirit,

So does the Book of Mormon.

Do you have a citation for that?

 

[Lemuel]

Indeed it does, Smith didn’t formulate his idea that Elohim had a body until later. But that’s a different topic for a different time.

And where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim has a physical body? The most perfect book. The one that will draw a man closer to God than any other . . .

 

[gazelam]

And just to note, the notion that Melito of Sardis taught God as having a body comes from a quote in Origen. However, fragments of Melito writings have been found which refute this, showing that he actually believed God was pure spirit.

There is that which really exists, and it is called God. He, I say, really exists, and by His power doth everything subsist. This being is in no sense made, nor did He ever come into being; but He has existed from eternity, and will continue to exist for ever and ever. He changeth not, while everything else changes. No eye can see Him, nor thought apprehend Him, nor language describe Him; and those who love Him speak of Him thus: `Father, and God of Truth.’ - Melito of Sardis, Fragments, [155 A.D.]

There is nothing in this Melito quote that addresses Melito’s belief regarding the composition of God.

 

[gazelam]

I have already refuted you on this numerous times…

Origen is speaking about the Stoic notion of the spiritual being made of an special kind of mater which had found its way into the thought of Tertullian and some others of the time. These writers in no way thought of God as having a body, for them God was a Spirit, and Spirit was made out of a special kind of matter beyond spacial matter in the universe.

Origen said the issue wasn’t settled in his day. “For it is also to be a subject of investigation how God himself is to be understood, – whether as corporeal and formed according to some shape, or of a different nature from bodies, – a point which is not clearly indicated in our teaching, and the same inquiries have been made regarding Christ and the Holy Spirit”. (The Anti-Nicene Fathers 4:241)

At face value Origen is referring to teachings of a group to which he belongs. After all he refers to a deficiency in “our teaching”, not an outsider’s teachings, such as, those of the Stoics. I’m always up for more information, but your explanation falls short based on the information you’ve presented on this specific issue.

 

[edtaylor51]

It depends on the definition of Christian. If you hold a Christian must believe in the Trinity, then no. If you believe Christians must believe Jesus was the Son of God and died for our sins and began the new covenant, then yes, they are I suppose. They are all pretty weird in their own ways, but then again so are many religions to those not practicing or familiar with the workings of said religion.

 

[rcwitness]

Im not sure how it relates to your beliefs, but Colossians 2:9 seems to reveal Christs nature as the same as the divine Godhead. Though He also had a human nature, which was made subject to His divine nature.

Colossians 1
He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Colossians 2
all the riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, of Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.…
…For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily, and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

 

[thephilosopher6]

It’s not “my explanation.” It is well know that some of the Fathers influenced by Stoicism, Tertullian in particular, held onto the clear notion that Spirit was made of a special kind of matter.

Right at the beginning of his systematic work On First Principles (ca 229-230 CE) Origen refers to Paul’s words on the veil over Moses’ face. He discusses Christians who deduced from ‘our scriptures’ that God is a body, since he is called ‘a consuming fire’ (Deut. 4:24) and ‘spirit’ (Jn 4:24). These Christians adhered to the Stoic view that fire and spirit (or: breath, πνεῦμα) are material corporal phenomena. - The Interpretation of Exodus: Studies in Honour of Cornelis Houtman, p. 242

 

[gazelam]

It’s not “my explanation.” It is well know that some of the Fathers influenced by Stoicism, Tertullian in particular, held onto the clear notion that Spirit was made of a special kind of matter.

Right at the beginning of his systematic work On First Principles (ca 229-230 CE) Origen refers to Paul’s words on the veil over Moses’ face. He discusses Christians who deduced from ‘our scriptures’ that God is a body, since he is called ‘a consuming fire’ (Deut. 4:24) and ‘spirit’ (Jn 4:24). These Christians adhered to the Stoic view that fire and spirit (or: breath, πνεῦμα) are material corporal phenomena. - The Interpretation of Exodus: Studies in Honour of Cornelis Houtman, p. 242

Origen also said:
The Jews indeed, but also some of our people, supposed that God should be understood as a man, that is, adorned with human members and human appearance. But the philosophers despise these stories as fabulous and formed in the likeness of poetic fictions. (Origen, Homilies on Genesis 3:1)

Not all of Origen’s references regarding non-incorporeal beliefs of early Christians can be chalked up to Stoicism as is the case with this quote.

 

[Stephen168]

Origen also said:

We read in many passages of the divine Scripture that God speaks to men. For this reason the Jews indeed, but also some of our people, supposed that God should be understood as a man, that is, adorned with human members and human appearance. But the philosophers despise these stories as fabulous and formed in the likeness of poetic fictions. Because of this it seems to me that I must first discuss these few matters and then come to those words which have been read. First, therefore, let my word be to those outside the Church who arrogantly clamor around us, saying that it is not appropriate for that most exalted and invisible and incorporeal God to experience human affections. For if, they say, you give him the experience of speaking, you will, doubtless, give him also a mouth and a tongue and the other members with which the function of speaking is performed. But if this be so, one has departed from the invisible and incorporeal God. And they harass our people, joining many similar arguments to these. Therefore, if we may have the support of your prayers, we shall briefly reply to these arguments as the Lord may grant. As we profess that God is incorporeal and omnipotent and invisible, so we confess with a sure and immovable doctrine that he cares about mortal affairs and that nothing happens in heaven or earth apart from his providence.(Origen, Homilies on Genesis 3:1)

If I cherry picked a quote from Mormon leadership that some Mormons believed the Book of Mormon was an allegory, but did not include his explanation on why it is it not true, it would not be a fair representation of what Mormon’s believed.

 

[gazelam]

gazelam:

Origen also said:

We read in many passages of the divine Scripture that God speaks to men. For this reason the Jews indeed, but also some of our people, supposed that God should be understood as a man, that is, adorned with human members and human appearance. But the philosophers despise these stories as fabulous and formed in the likeness of poetic fictions. Because of this it seems to me that I must first discuss these few matters and then come to those words which have been read. First, therefore, let my word be to those outside the Church who arrogantly clamor around us, saying that it is not appropriate for that most exalted and invisible and incorporeal God to experience human affections. For if, they say, you give him the experience of speaking, you will, doubtless, give him also a mouth and a tongue and the other members with which the function of speaking is performed. But if this be so, one has departed from the invisible and incorporeal God. And they harass our people, joining many similar arguments to these. Therefore, if we may have the support of your prayers, we shall briefly reply to these arguments as the Lord may grant. As we profess that God is incorporeal and omnipotent and invisible, so we confess with a sure and immovable doctrine that he cares about mortal affairs and that nothing happens in heaven or earth apart from his providence.(Origen, Homilies on Genesis 3:1)

If I cherry picked a quote from Mormon leadership that some Mormons believed the Book of Mormon was an allegory, but did not include his explanation on why it is it not true, it would not be a fair representation of what Mormon’s believed.

Not sure what cherry picking you’re referring to. The whole point of me sharing this quote is to refute TP6’s incorrect assertion in comment #60 “there is no evidence at all the early Church held to God having a body” Origen clearly states that some early Christians “supposed that God should be understood as a man, that is, adorned with human members and human appearance” in this quote.

 

[gazelam]

And just to note, the notion that Melito of Sardis taught God as having a body comes from a quote in Origen. However, fragments of Melito writings have been found which refute this, showing that he actually believed God was pure spirit.

See this link: Origen and Scripture: The Contours of the Exegetical Life - Peter W. Martens, Peter William Martens - Google Books

Footnote 16 notes that Origen criticizes Melito’s anthropomorphism found in Gen Frg/PG 12.93A.